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Simple Dragon Ball Question
- Thread starter Ryukama
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Matt, and all suporters, just answer this plz.
In Infinite Zamasu Low 2-C because of Power or is he Low 2-c because of Hax exclusively.
If he is, Zen'o should scale to the timeline shenanigans he demonstrated, since the reason Zamasu was able to do that was because of Raw Power, and Zen'o should have that capability as well, do to being more powerful. Same reason why everyone who is stronger than Buu should be able to use vice shout. Vice shout also adds evidence for Space Time bullshit being possible using sheer power, but let's leave that be.
If he is this way via Hax and time travel, provide detailed proof. Just as Ryu provided.
This is relevant because it allows others to see if the standards you're holding Ryu's speculation are fair—- since, worst case scenario, you also make claims without what you define as sufficient evidence. You can't just pull out Occam's Razor when you haven' exactly explained why you conclusion about Time Travel is a simpler claim. Infinite Zamasu isn't the same person— not even the same KIND of entity as Black or Fusion Zanmasu. So, saying that this incorporeal, 4D entity used time travel (via some vague and unexplained method— you didn't exactly elaborate on how he did it. Sure, Cal said, "carbon footprint", but I don't see you posting scans of that. Don't remember that being the case... Could be wrong, but you need to show me first) and drawing parallels to other beings who used a far different appearing method than that which corporeal brings had to do as justification for the razor isn't effective.
There is no reason to assume that IZ used time travel in any comparable way to Black or IZ. Non-sequitor.
In Infinite Zamasu Low 2-C because of Power or is he Low 2-c because of Hax exclusively.
If he is, Zen'o should scale to the timeline shenanigans he demonstrated, since the reason Zamasu was able to do that was because of Raw Power, and Zen'o should have that capability as well, do to being more powerful. Same reason why everyone who is stronger than Buu should be able to use vice shout. Vice shout also adds evidence for Space Time bullshit being possible using sheer power, but let's leave that be.
If he is this way via Hax and time travel, provide detailed proof. Just as Ryu provided.
This is relevant because it allows others to see if the standards you're holding Ryu's speculation are fair—- since, worst case scenario, you also make claims without what you define as sufficient evidence. You can't just pull out Occam's Razor when you haven' exactly explained why you conclusion about Time Travel is a simpler claim. Infinite Zamasu isn't the same person— not even the same KIND of entity as Black or Fusion Zanmasu. So, saying that this incorporeal, 4D entity used time travel (via some vague and unexplained method— you didn't exactly elaborate on how he did it. Sure, Cal said, "carbon footprint", but I don't see you posting scans of that. Don't remember that being the case... Could be wrong, but you need to show me first) and drawing parallels to other beings who used a far different appearing method than that which corporeal brings had to do as justification for the razor isn't effective.
There is no reason to assume that IZ used time travel in any comparable way to Black or IZ. Non-sequitor.
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If he is, Zen'o should scale to the timeline shenanigans he demonstrated, since the reason Zamasu was able to do that was because of Raw Power, and Zen'o should have that capability as well, do to being more powerful. Same reason why everyone who is stronger than Buu should be able to use vice shout. Vice shout also adds evidence for Space Time bullshit being possible using sheer power, but let's leave that be.
Here's the thing, the case with Vice Shout was that Piccolo explained that anyone comparable in power to Super Buu would be able to perform it, and then Gotenks did it. Like the case with Anilaza, he was stated to be able to bend space with sheer power, but nobody specified that everyone could do it that was comparable to him, he just did it, and no one else has done it. So, you know. That argument is invalid.
Here's the thing, the case with Vice Shout was that Piccolo explained that anyone comparable in power to Super Buu would be able to perform it, and then Gotenks did it. Like the case with Anilaza, he was stated to be able to bend space with sheer power, but nobody specified that everyone could do it that was comparable to him, he just did it, and no one else has done it. So, you know. That argument is invalid.
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The argument is 100% invalid. Zeno has 0 feats that show anything about 12 or 18 universes. Pure speculation won't make a 2-C go 2-B.
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@Amexim
That is absolutely lined with fallacies, with no offense to you.
The Vice Shout thing is ridiculous, for one. Not just because of itself, but it's also ridiculous in the sense that:
Literally no other abilities are universal because of power. (No, I don't mean "Universe level")
Though I may receive criticism for this, I don't think him affecting the present was anything other than hax. His Low 2-C rating is based off the assumption (or should be) that each "universe," in DB cosmology is its own hubble volume with different space-time properties (though I disagree with that too - besides the point) 2-C would be affecting all 12 universes.
That is absolutely lined with fallacies, with no offense to you.
The Vice Shout thing is ridiculous, for one. Not just because of itself, but it's also ridiculous in the sense that:
Literally no other abilities are universal because of power. (No, I don't mean "Universe level")
Though I may receive criticism for this, I don't think him affecting the present was anything other than hax. His Low 2-C rating is based off the assumption (or should be) that each "universe," in DB cosmology is its own hubble volume with different space-time properties (though I disagree with that too - besides the point) 2-C would be affecting all 12 universes.
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I don't think Zamasu affecting the present and saying he could become 2-C is any different than (and this isn't a good analogy) me spitting in the ocean and saying I have planetary range because the spit then spreads around the planet. Zamasu could only spread because of the leftovers because of Trunks' time travel, and he'd be locked into that one timeline otherwise.
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@Matt
Even in the form of a "possibly"? Or should we just get rid of that part in the rating system, because it's speculative. That's not an argument, Matt, it's just you saying no. If you're a bit upset, please remain calm. I'm not trying to anger you or anything. Just a debate about fictional characters, it's nothing to be upset over. That being said, can you answer my question?
@Hadou
Your argument is kinda bad. You're saying that just because it wasn't explicitly stated that Others could do the same with Sheer Power that people stronger than Anilaza can't do it. Which doesn't make any sense. At that point, you're either pretending like that statement of power being the reason why he is doing it isn't actually true, or treating it as a plot hole, as it likely is. Otherwise, Goku and all people superior to Anilaza should be capable of the same thing. The fact that they aren't is a plot hole, just like it Is for Goku and the others to not demonstrate Vice Shout hax casually, as well as destroying planets etc. Except for Vegeta busting out of the time chamber?
In either case, it's pretty similar to vice shout, considering in both instances, raw power is causing space rifts (and Anilaza is doing it in a world of void... Weird.). So, no, argument valid.
Even in the form of a "possibly"? Or should we just get rid of that part in the rating system, because it's speculative. That's not an argument, Matt, it's just you saying no. If you're a bit upset, please remain calm. I'm not trying to anger you or anything. Just a debate about fictional characters, it's nothing to be upset over. That being said, can you answer my question?
@Hadou
Your argument is kinda bad. You're saying that just because it wasn't explicitly stated that Others could do the same with Sheer Power that people stronger than Anilaza can't do it. Which doesn't make any sense. At that point, you're either pretending like that statement of power being the reason why he is doing it isn't actually true, or treating it as a plot hole, as it likely is. Otherwise, Goku and all people superior to Anilaza should be capable of the same thing. The fact that they aren't is a plot hole, just like it Is for Goku and the others to not demonstrate Vice Shout hax casually, as well as destroying planets etc. Except for Vegeta busting out of the time chamber?
In either case, it's pretty similar to vice shout, considering in both instances, raw power is causing space rifts (and Anilaza is doing it in a world of void... Weird.). So, no, argument valid.
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I think you should calm down Amexim, also no for the Anilaza ability scaling since Beerus noticed and was impressed about him doing that ability if everyone stronger than him could do it than Beerus would have ignored that as a common ability, so no. Also Piccolo talked about the Vice Shout scaling, which did not happened with Anilaza.
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@Aeyu
False. Blatantly. No offense to you either.
Goku breaking Hit's Time Space shenanigans with just powering up. The statement in the Manga with Whis saying that Hits hax is only useful for people equal to and below in power. Then Goku demonstrates the ability to power through hax. There's other instances too, iirc, but that's just the stuff with Time Space and dimensions.
False. Blatantly. No offense to you either.
Goku breaking Hit's Time Space shenanigans with just powering up. The statement in the Manga with Whis saying that Hits hax is only useful for people equal to and below in power. Then Goku demonstrates the ability to power through hax. There's other instances too, iirc, but that's just the stuff with Time Space and dimensions.
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I agree it should be removed.Quantu said:
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It was decided that it didn't matter, Zamasu was fusing with the space and time of Trunks timeline and would have fused with Goku's timeline as well had Zeno not killed him.The real cal howard said:
Doesn't really matter if Trunks gave him a opening to travel through time he still would have fused with two timelines which is Baseline 2-C.
Your analogy doesn't compare at all.
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I am also against adding Vice Shot to everyone, that's wank. It's power, yes, but it's also an application of power. We need feats.
Which is something the DB Fanbase seems content with living without.
Which is something the DB Fanbase seems content with living without.
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Raw power is also the reason Goku and Jiren have a resistance to Time Stop and why Beerus resisted the gag properties of Arale and why Goku resisted the black hole and why Toppo changed the colour of the World of Void and why Goku and Frieza and Vegeta resisted Hakai and why Vegeta resisted Babidi's Mind Control and why Goku resisted Roshi's Electricity and why Roshi resisted Ganos's Electricity and probably why Jiren resisted the Grand Priest's petty Power Nullification, but ability scaling just doesn't work like that. Vice Shout is different. Vice Shout was stated by Piccolo to be able to be done by anyone who was comparable in power. And then Gotenks did it. Nothing implies that any of these other things scale to anyone else.
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Piccolo never said that, he said he had enough power to do it, and then Gotenks copied it.
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I agree with @Dark. It was just stated it " Wouldn't work " . She never really fought back either, and gave a stupid excuse. I'd have loved to see a actual fight though between them.
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I agree with removing Vice Shout from everyone just because they're stronger then Buu. We don't do this for other series so why is Dragon Ball so special?
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But, Dark, I have been calm since the beginning. I haven't said anything rude to anyone intentionally, my apologizes if you feel that way. I am just pressing Matt because of his own arguments. Am I not allowed to pressure my debate opponent?
I'm not asking for Anilaza's ability to be scaled to everyone. I am, however, saying that it doesn't make sense within the verse, either way.
At worst, by claiming that No one stronger than Anilaza should be able to do what he did based off of a lack of a statement and ignoring actual logic to say that he can't. It's irrational. Anilaza has X strength, and that X strength allows him to preform action Y. Therefore, anyone who has more than X strength should be capable of doing the same action Y. The fact that no one says "oh, we can do it too" being some kind of rational nail in the coffin to the topic isn't rational at all, considering Beerus or Piccolo saying that raw power makes everyone capable isn't necessary to connect the dots. It's just bad writing, as always.
On one hand, we have Anilaza being stated to do this crazy stuff using Raw Power. It being a weird dimension thingy through Sheer Power even corroborates more evidence for the point. It's similar in concept to vice Shout, and there's other instances of power doing similar things, including making Zanmasu 4D.
If he isn't 4D through power, please post evidence in the form of scans.
It's not me that doesn't make sense— my argument has evidence to back it up. What doesn't make sense is Dragon Ball... Consistent space time hax via raw power, but no one else demonstrates it. So, instead of acknowledging that plot hole, giving everyone a possibly with a note, or doing anything to acknowledge that there's consistent evidence for raw power playing roles in Space Time hax at the very least, we're going to say that it's impossible for them to have the hax?
Am I misrepresenting anyone?
I'm not asking for Anilaza's ability to be scaled to everyone. I am, however, saying that it doesn't make sense within the verse, either way.
At worst, by claiming that No one stronger than Anilaza should be able to do what he did based off of a lack of a statement and ignoring actual logic to say that he can't. It's irrational. Anilaza has X strength, and that X strength allows him to preform action Y. Therefore, anyone who has more than X strength should be capable of doing the same action Y. The fact that no one says "oh, we can do it too" being some kind of rational nail in the coffin to the topic isn't rational at all, considering Beerus or Piccolo saying that raw power makes everyone capable isn't necessary to connect the dots. It's just bad writing, as always.
On one hand, we have Anilaza being stated to do this crazy stuff using Raw Power. It being a weird dimension thingy through Sheer Power even corroborates more evidence for the point. It's similar in concept to vice Shout, and there's other instances of power doing similar things, including making Zanmasu 4D.
If he isn't 4D through power, please post evidence in the form of scans.
It's not me that doesn't make sense— my argument has evidence to back it up. What doesn't make sense is Dragon Ball... Consistent space time hax via raw power, but no one else demonstrates it. So, instead of acknowledging that plot hole, giving everyone a possibly with a note, or doing anything to acknowledge that there's consistent evidence for raw power playing roles in Space Time hax at the very least, we're going to say that it's impossible for them to have the hax?
Am I misrepresenting anyone?
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"Careful, Arale. That stuff doesn't work on Beerus-sama. He'll destroy you..."
I refute, however, that this was from sheer power. It might have been, but that was perhaps too speculatory for me to say that with certainty.
I refute, however, that this was from sheer power. It might have been, but that was perhaps too speculatory for me to say that with certainty.
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My apologies to Ryukama, and I hope that he does not take offence, but I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew here. I also prefer evidence over speculation.
In addition, I also do not think that Zamasu should have a 2-C key.
In addition, I also do not think that Zamasu should have a 2-C key.
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Close this thread.
I heavily disagree with the opposing argument, but this thread is becoming heavily derailed with subjects which should be discussed in another thread.
I heavily disagree with the opposing argument, but this thread is becoming heavily derailed with subjects which should be discussed in another thread.
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I would choose your next words very carefully Matt, if I were you.Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, didn't Goku do the same thing to Hit's pocket dimension?
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