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What is this debate even for? Are we pushing for 2-b or 2-a zeno?
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Simple Dragon Ball Question
- Thread starter Ryukama
- Start date
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2-A Zeno is out of the question.
Either 2-B or At least 2-C for Zeno I think.
Either 2-B or At least 2-C for Zeno I think.
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@Aizen Our profiles explicitly support Zeno being able to completely erase all of existence, and Trunks's statement about the timelines. So I'm asking why we haven't put 2 and 2 together and have Zeno be able to destroy those timelines.
If we now disagree with those 2 things, we need to change the profiles. If not, then yes 2-B Zeno. Playing Devil's Advocate I see very little going against it, however I'm completely open to being wrong. Like I said I care more about clarification and consistency than upgrades.
Whether Zeno gets upgraded or not, I still adamantly believe his power isn't limited to a single timeline. His erase has ranged multiple timelines and he'd obviously scale to Infinite Zamasu, whose power ranges/affects multiple timelines.
If we now disagree with those 2 things, we need to change the profiles. If not, then yes 2-B Zeno. Playing Devil's Advocate I see very little going against it, however I'm completely open to being wrong. Like I said I care more about clarification and consistency than upgrades.
Whether Zeno gets upgraded or not, I still adamantly believe his power isn't limited to a single timeline. His erase has ranged multiple timelines and he'd obviously scale to Infinite Zamasu, whose power ranges/affects multiple timelines.
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I don't mind either way about this. Im neutral. I just wanted to get to the real meat of this discussion, so to speak.
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Ryu's reasoning is kinda legit for me.
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Ryu's making the most sense and somebody data is correct, there needs to be an actual debunk
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Oh, I now see enough timelines for a 2-B rating. But I still am not wholly convinced that Zeno can affect all timelines.
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From what I recall, the reason why DBX has more universes with Trunks' statement is because the "smallest changes" only happened a handful of times in the canon multiverse, while Demigra, Towa, Mira, Chronoa, etc. all have instances making more universes.
To simplify, canon has four timelines due to Trunks/Cell. Non canon has far more due to many others (among other things)
To simplify, canon has four timelines due to Trunks/Cell. Non canon has far more due to many others (among other things)
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I think its highly unlikely for Zeno to be only multi-universal, just because there is multiple version of Zeno doesn't limit him.That demon bane guy can make infinite copies of himself and is rated outerversal+.I think Zeno should be multiversal via Whis statement of being able to eradicate everything in DB multiverse at a whim.
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It isn't unlikely. We simply need to change the justifciation. The end.
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But the justification is accurate, its the rating that isn't/
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- #132
@Cal Trunks isn't referring to changes when he goes back in time. Rather different possibilities. And the smallest things create many new timelines. When that scan was used for Xenoverse, I don't recall it being agreed to be like that.
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I...highly doubt that, tbh. I also think Azzy said something against that too.
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The justification is innacurate. Whis said Zeno can destroy the world, the multiverse.
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Reread the scan, and I see where Ryu is coming from.
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Xenoverse doesn't count for the main canon, though. I still say this relies on a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions. Why would we rate statements over feats when the feats very clearly contradict the statements? Whis is not omniscient. He didn't know who the mortal beyond Gods was. It's highly possible that Whis just didn't account for timelines and by existence he meant every faculty of the multiverse, including different realms. Also, the only reason the Angels were spared was because their role is separate from their universe; they aren't tied to it by their nature like GoD's and Kaioshin. When Zen'o nuked the multiverse, nothing survived. No angels, no Grand Priest, no nothing.
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In the secondary canon manga with more input from Toriyama than in the anime Whis says Zeno can destroy "all of existence as we know it". We've agreed that the manga can be used if nothing within the anime contradicts it. Whis's "world" statement does not contradict this. "World" can be up to multiple interpretations, and when the secondary canon manga with more input from Toriyama than the anime uses one interpretation, I think that's the safe one to go with.
It's not even like the first time we've done something like this. We've accepted Boros's attack possibly being 5-B due to a statement in secondary canon with original author input. However in Dragon Ball the secondary canon has even more original author input than in OPM's case, and the secondary canon's statement doesn't directly contradict the primary canon's like with OPM.
Also in the anime Whis also says Zeno "can destroy anything he wants in an instant". Of course this line in of itself is way too vague and potential for NLF to use. But I think in conjunction with the other statements made about Zeno it helps further justification at least to a tiny extent.
It's not even like the first time we've done something like this. We've accepted Boros's attack possibly being 5-B due to a statement in secondary canon with original author input. However in Dragon Ball the secondary canon has even more original author input than in OPM's case, and the secondary canon's statement doesn't directly contradict the primary canon's like with OPM.
Also in the anime Whis also says Zeno "can destroy anything he wants in an instant". Of course this line in of itself is way too vague and potential for NLF to use. But I think in conjunction with the other statements made about Zeno it helps further justification at least to a tiny extent.
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Im gonna have to agree with Aeyu on this one. While Whis is a reliable source of info, you can only go so far when relying on a character for the inside scoope. There has to be a limit to how far your willing to take their word for it, especially if you repeatedly go off it.
Also, the fact Zeno can't erase his other counter parts but can somehow erase the other timelines doesn't sit well with me. If his power really could reach into those other timelines, I seriously doubt the Zeno's in those timelines would sit around and drink tea instead of trying to find out who the hell is targetting their respective worlds.
Also, the fact Zeno can't erase his other counter parts but can somehow erase the other timelines doesn't sit well with me. If his power really could reach into those other timelines, I seriously doubt the Zeno's in those timelines would sit around and drink tea instead of trying to find out who the hell is targetting their respective worlds.
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- #139
@Aeyu Just because Whis doesn't know absolutely everything doesn't mean he isn't extremely knowledgable or reliable. I guess any statement a character who isn't Zuno makes now needs to be discarded.
No. In considering that the gods complete and full knowledge of alternate timelines, and this statement was made during an arc where the entire premise is travelling to alternate timelines, "all of existence as we know it" far more likely refers to all timelines than just one.
Also you were so insistent on using the Funimation dub before. Whis says "anything regardless of complexity or scale" and "Everything. All of reality as we know it" in it.
Again, the angels thing only proves that not everything associated with a universe has to be erased alongside it. And again Zeno's erase has proven able to range multiple timelines.
@Professor Same things. Whis isn't omniscient but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take his word for it. Countless characters in fiction can destroy all of existence but have equal or superior people to them. Let's downgrade Xenoverse, Demonbane and Infinite Zamasu if having alternate timeline versions of yourself has to mean you can't bust multiple timelines. Zeno proved able to spread to other timelines by erasing Zamasu in both Trunks and Goku's timelines.
No. In considering that the gods complete and full knowledge of alternate timelines, and this statement was made during an arc where the entire premise is travelling to alternate timelines, "all of existence as we know it" far more likely refers to all timelines than just one.
Also you were so insistent on using the Funimation dub before. Whis says "anything regardless of complexity or scale" and "Everything. All of reality as we know it" in it.
Again, the angels thing only proves that not everything associated with a universe has to be erased alongside it. And again Zeno's erase has proven able to range multiple timelines.
@Professor Same things. Whis isn't omniscient but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take his word for it. Countless characters in fiction can destroy all of existence but have equal or superior people to them. Let's downgrade Xenoverse, Demonbane and Infinite Zamasu if having alternate timeline versions of yourself has to mean you can't bust multiple timelines. Zeno proved able to spread to other timelines by erasing Zamasu in both Trunks and Goku's timelines.
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The point of the matter is, in the diagram he used to describe Zen'o's power, timelines were not shown. Zen'o didn't destroy the timeline when going all out. There is NO EVIDENCE of him destroying timelines. His power did *not* reach into the present, Zamasu's did with hax. Just because Zen'o is more powerful than Zamasu doesn't mean he has almost any hax except Void Manip.
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- #142
What does that matter? In the manga it's just Whis's face talking when he says "all of existence as we know it". In the anime Whis's "diagram" was the ocean when he said the world. Was Whis only referring to the ocean when he said the world?
Absolutely nothing suggests Zeno went all out on Zamasu.
Zeno erased Zamasu in both Goku's timeline and Future Trunks's timeline. So his erase did span multiple timelines.
We rate Zamasu as being able to affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines with his power. Zeno is far more powerful than Zamasu. Even though he doesn't have a feat of doing so we have a reliable statement from Whis that he can destroy multiple timelines and he scales to someone who can. Does Kefla need to actually destroy a universe for her statement and scaling to count?
Absolutely nothing suggests Zeno went all out on Zamasu.
Zeno erased Zamasu in both Goku's timeline and Future Trunks's timeline. So his erase did span multiple timelines.
We rate Zamasu as being able to affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines with his power. Zeno is far more powerful than Zamasu. Even though he doesn't have a feat of doing so we have a reliable statement from Whis that he can destroy multiple timelines and he scales to someone who can. Does Kefla need to actually destroy a universe for her statement and scaling to count?
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There's nothing but assumptions. Zeno has no real feats or statements of affecting multiple timelines.
Scaling Zeno to something someone was doing over time and with hax is wrong.
World in Whis' context means Multiverse. They say "Planet, Universe, World" in this order, the later refering to all 12 universes.
Scaling Zeno to something someone was doing over time and with hax is wrong.
World in Whis' context means Multiverse. They say "Planet, Universe, World" in this order, the later refering to all 12 universes.
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For example, Lavos as the Dream Devourer itself said that it could destroy all of existence, and has feats in future forms of doing so, despite there being one for each timeline, yet it gets a possibly.
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- #145
Infinite Zamasu even at his weakest has the power to affect multiple timelines. Overtime, we rate him as being able to destroy multiple timelines. Zeno is vastly more powerful than Infinite Zamasu. If Infinite Zamasu can affect/or eventually grow powerful enough to bust multiple timelines, so can Zeno. Also if we can powerscale people to base Zamasu's power, why is Zamasu's peak suddenly "hax" that no one's power can scale to?
Yet all other interpretations of Whis's statement, including those with more input from the original creator than the anime, have it as referring to all of existence/reality/everything. With even the anime also saying he can destroy anything.
@Cal If there being a Lavos for each timeline is literally the only thing against him being able to destroy all existence, than they should be no possibly. Also Lavos wouldn't even be the norm, as with my many other examples I've shown that we still rate certain characters as being able to destroy existence despite them having multiple timeline versions of themselves.
What we haven't done with Lavos though? Say that for whatever reason his "all of existence" statement for him only meant one single timeline.
Yet all other interpretations of Whis's statement, including those with more input from the original creator than the anime, have it as referring to all of existence/reality/everything. With even the anime also saying he can destroy anything.
@Cal If there being a Lavos for each timeline is literally the only thing against him being able to destroy all existence, than they should be no possibly. Also Lavos wouldn't even be the norm, as with my many other examples I've shown that we still rate certain characters as being able to destroy existence despite them having multiple timeline versions of themselves.
What we haven't done with Lavos though? Say that for whatever reason his "all of existence" statement for him only meant one single timeline.
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Because Lavos has feats. Zeno doesn't. It's so freaking simple. With Zeno you are taking a statement that most assuredly does not mean what you think it means, and acting like it does.
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And if you are honestly arguing he should be 2-B because "He can destroy everything", I hope you realize that this is a horrible NLF without proof. We have no proof so we go by the highest show,
The statement is, as you say, ambiguous, so you cannot go for the highest unreliastic interpretation while also ignoring that Zeno's best feat when he was pissed and unleashing his power to destroy everything didn't do what you say he can do.
The statement is, as you say, ambiguous, so you cannot go for the highest unreliastic interpretation while also ignoring that Zeno's best feat when he was pissed and unleashing his power to destroy everything didn't do what you say he can do.
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You have nothing to suggest that the statement doesn't mean what I say it does but mere assertion. I'm using what both the secondary canon manga with more input from the original creator from than the anime, and the dub (only cause others insisted I do) interpret it as.
Zeno powerscales to Zamasu. Zamasu's power can affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines as our profile says. If Zamasu can do that, so can Zeno.
Zeno powerscales to Zamasu. Zamasu's power can affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines as our profile says. If Zamasu can do that, so can Zeno.
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"Infinite Zamasu even at his weakest has the power to affect multiple timelines."
No, he time traveled.
"Overtime, we rate him as being able to destroy multiple timelines."
I am against this.
"Zeno is vastly more powerful than Infinite Zamasu."
Which is a Low 2-C feat.
"If Infinite Zamasu can affect/or eventually grow powerful enough to bust multiple timelines, so can Zeno."
No. Zeno lacks the hax and existence to do it.
"Also if we can powerscale people to base Zamasu's power, why is Zamasu's peak suddenly "hax" that no one's power can scale to?"
Because Zamasu can only do it through hax that nobody else can copy, and as you yourself said, over time, and would eventually be 2-C.
2-C. Not 2-B like you suggest, but 2-C. He has 0 feats beyond Low 2-C and I don't think he should have a speculative over time rating.
No, he time traveled.
"Overtime, we rate him as being able to destroy multiple timelines."
I am against this.
"Zeno is vastly more powerful than Infinite Zamasu."
Which is a Low 2-C feat.
"If Infinite Zamasu can affect/or eventually grow powerful enough to bust multiple timelines, so can Zeno."
No. Zeno lacks the hax and existence to do it.
"Also if we can powerscale people to base Zamasu's power, why is Zamasu's peak suddenly "hax" that no one's power can scale to?"
Because Zamasu can only do it through hax that nobody else can copy, and as you yourself said, over time, and would eventually be 2-C.
2-C. Not 2-B like you suggest, but 2-C. He has 0 feats beyond Low 2-C and I don't think he should have a speculative over time rating.
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"You have nothing to suggest that the statement doesn't mean what I say it does but mere assertation."
Except every single usage in the anime.
"I'm using what both the secondary canon manga"
We don't use the manga.
"with more input from the original creator from than the anime"
The guy who forgets what SSJ3 is?
"and the dub (only cause others insisted I do) interpret it as."
Why are you using dub out of peer pressure? It's invalid.
"Zeno powerscales to Zamasu. Zamasu's power can affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines as our profile says. If Zamasu can do that, so can Zeno."
NO, my god. Stop equating overtime hax that does not scale to Zamasu as he currently is to Zeno.
That's like saying if a character went back in time and killed Kid Jiren and was said by everyond to be stronger than Kid Jiren, we scale him to adult Jiren, because "Kid Jiren has the potential to eventually become that strong, so can this character".
You see the problem here?
Except every single usage in the anime.
"I'm using what both the secondary canon manga"
We don't use the manga.
"with more input from the original creator from than the anime"
The guy who forgets what SSJ3 is?
"and the dub (only cause others insisted I do) interpret it as."
Why are you using dub out of peer pressure? It's invalid.
"Zeno powerscales to Zamasu. Zamasu's power can affect and eventually destroy multiple timelines as our profile says. If Zamasu can do that, so can Zeno."
NO, my god. Stop equating overtime hax that does not scale to Zamasu as he currently is to Zeno.
That's like saying if a character went back in time and killed Kid Jiren and was said by everyond to be stronger than Kid Jiren, we scale him to adult Jiren, because "Kid Jiren has the potential to eventually become that strong, so can this character".
You see the problem here?
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But assuming it means more than the multiverse requires a degree of assumption, and betting on that assumption and not taking the safe end requires puts the burden of proof on the one making the claim.
And powerscaling aside, Zen'o could be infinite levels above Zamasu, but it doesn't equate to hax. It's very arguable that the portal being closed was just a side effect of Zamasu's erasure. Or else why didn't Zen'o's power come through the portal? He was not being specific in his targetting, the guy is a little kid.
And powerscaling aside, Zen'o could be infinite levels above Zamasu, but it doesn't equate to hax. It's very arguable that the portal being closed was just a side effect of Zamasu's erasure. Or else why didn't Zen'o's power come through the portal? He was not being specific in his targetting, the guy is a little kid.
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>Every time Zamasu or Goku Black went to the Past or Future it was time travelAmexim said:
>Zamasu goes to the past
Mmm, what could it be.
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Also, tearing a temporal portal open is not a 2-C feat. We are going back to the Vice Shout days here.
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If you disagree with Infinite Zamasu being able to spread to multiple timelines or being able to bust multiple timelines then make a thread on it. I'm using what these profiles explicitly have and now that they might lead to Zeno having higher power now everyone is totally against all these previously agreed upon things.
The method Infinite Zamasu would've become 2-C with is the exact same method he became Low 2-C with. If we can powerscale others the power Infinite Zamasu has at Low 2-C there's no reason for him to 2-C.
I never suggested 2-B Zamasu. My point is that IZ if can affect or eventually destroy multiple timelines, then so can Zeno. Even if they're both just 2-C. I just don't like us using the already ridiculous headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being this uber supreme god tier and taking it even further saying he's far more powerful than Zeno (or would've been)
Zeno erasing all 12 universes and their space-times is a 2-C feat.
The method Infinite Zamasu would've become 2-C with is the exact same method he became Low 2-C with. If we can powerscale others the power Infinite Zamasu has at Low 2-C there's no reason for him to 2-C.
I never suggested 2-B Zamasu. My point is that IZ if can affect or eventually destroy multiple timelines, then so can Zeno. Even if they're both just 2-C. I just don't like us using the already ridiculous headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being this uber supreme god tier and taking it even further saying he's far more powerful than Zeno (or would've been)
Zeno erasing all 12 universes and their space-times is a 2-C feat.
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"The method Infinite Zamasu would've become 2-C with is the exact same method he became Low 2-C with. If we can powerscale others the power Infinite Zamasu has at Low 2-C there's no reason for him to 2-C."
Ryukama, you know this is not true. Nobody scales to 2-C Zamasu because he never got a chance to become 2-C and nobody fought him that way.
>Affecting multiple timelines
This isn't necessarily 2-C. Seriously. It can be just a hax.
"I just don't like us using the already ridiculous headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being this uber supreme god tier and taking it even further saying he's far more powerful than Zeno"
Saying that Zeno is this omnipotent god who can erase countless timelines with 12 universes each when at best he can only do it to one as seen by proof is a much worse headcanon.
Infinite Zamasu's hypothetical 2-C self does not scale to anyone simply because We don't know how strong he would be in relation to anyone.
Zeno's 2-C feat is his best feat.
Ryukama, you know this is not true. Nobody scales to 2-C Zamasu because he never got a chance to become 2-C and nobody fought him that way.
>Affecting multiple timelines
This isn't necessarily 2-C. Seriously. It can be just a hax.
"I just don't like us using the already ridiculous headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being this uber supreme god tier and taking it even further saying he's far more powerful than Zeno"
Saying that Zeno is this omnipotent god who can erase countless timelines with 12 universes each when at best he can only do it to one as seen by proof is a much worse headcanon.
Infinite Zamasu's hypothetical 2-C self does not scale to anyone simply because We don't know how strong he would be in relation to anyone.
Zeno's 2-C feat is his best feat.
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If Zeno can even affect multiple timelines, I still don't think we should assume he could just erase literally all of them.
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- #160
Matt please stop getting hostile and sarcastic. Especially when you constantly report and complain about others doing the same. Thank you.
Other usages of the world meaning a timeline doesn't immediately mean this one is if there are canon interpretations to suggest otherwise.
Yes it's been agreed before we can use the manga as long as the anime doesn't directly contradict it.
The original creator has say over his own work and what goes into it. Even if he has forgotton certain things. And proof that he forgot SSJ3?
Because Aeyu came at me for not wanting to use the dub, but now that the dub supports my statements that's been dropped. I didn't want to use the dub and agreed that it shouldn't be used, but if the opposition insists it be used and it only further supports my point, I'll do so to show them the flaw in doing so.
What? No. Zeno as we know so far is the supreme god of Dragon Ball. If Zamasu can affect multiple timelines or have eventually been able to destroy multiple timelines, then Zeno can too. Also why is what Zamasu is doing powerscalable AP when he's Low 2-C but suddenly hax no one can scale to when he's 2-C?
EDIT: New Post
1. Yes it is. The way Zamasu spread to the main universe is the same way he would've spread to other timelines. It's the exact same method. If Zamasu's powers that he used to become Low 2-C can be powerscaled to others, so can the powers he used eventually become 2-C.
2. I know. My point is if Zamasu's power is able to span multiple timelines so can Zeno's.
3."Omnipotent god who can destroy countless timelines". How much bigger of a strawman can you make? When did I ever say anything like this? At most I played Devil's Advocate for Zeno being able to destroy a large, finite amount of alternate timelines instead of just one. And at numerous times admitted that he has characters equal to him (the other Zenos) and that he lacks full acausality. Yet somehow I think he's omnipotent and can destroy countless timelines.
4. What reason is there to assume that Zamasu would've surpassed Zeno when nothing states he would've and we know Zeno's position as the highest deity in the series?
Other usages of the world meaning a timeline doesn't immediately mean this one is if there are canon interpretations to suggest otherwise.
Yes it's been agreed before we can use the manga as long as the anime doesn't directly contradict it.
The original creator has say over his own work and what goes into it. Even if he has forgotton certain things. And proof that he forgot SSJ3?
Because Aeyu came at me for not wanting to use the dub, but now that the dub supports my statements that's been dropped. I didn't want to use the dub and agreed that it shouldn't be used, but if the opposition insists it be used and it only further supports my point, I'll do so to show them the flaw in doing so.
What? No. Zeno as we know so far is the supreme god of Dragon Ball. If Zamasu can affect multiple timelines or have eventually been able to destroy multiple timelines, then Zeno can too. Also why is what Zamasu is doing powerscalable AP when he's Low 2-C but suddenly hax no one can scale to when he's 2-C?
EDIT: New Post
1. Yes it is. The way Zamasu spread to the main universe is the same way he would've spread to other timelines. It's the exact same method. If Zamasu's powers that he used to become Low 2-C can be powerscaled to others, so can the powers he used eventually become 2-C.
2. I know. My point is if Zamasu's power is able to span multiple timelines so can Zeno's.
3."Omnipotent god who can destroy countless timelines". How much bigger of a strawman can you make? When did I ever say anything like this? At most I played Devil's Advocate for Zeno being able to destroy a large, finite amount of alternate timelines instead of just one. And at numerous times admitted that he has characters equal to him (the other Zenos) and that he lacks full acausality. Yet somehow I think he's omnipotent and can destroy countless timelines.
4. What reason is there to assume that Zamasu would've surpassed Zeno when nothing states he would've and we know Zeno's position as the highest deity in the series?
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