Silver Surfer 'Fallen One' key?

[C2_of_Omegon]

During the Thanos Wins story arc, we met some future versions of familiar characters. The most famous are King Thanos and Cosmic Ghost Rider. There was, however, another who doesn't get a lot of spotlight, surprisingly. Drum Roll...


For those not familiar, this is Silver Surfer, now known as the Fallen One. Now, the Fallen One's history is identical to the standard Earth-616's except for severl factors: he is much older (like millions of years older) and he's done enough stuff to become worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

Now, Surfer as the Fallen One has a notably brief appearence but he does do enough to actually have some legit scaling. As such, I'll detail his potential statistics.

Rating

Now, he'd still be 4-B but a good deal stronger. This is based off the fact the Fallen One has Silver Surfer's exact history and feats plus what he briefly demonstrates. His most notable one however, is killing Cosmic Ghost Rider in a single blow with Mjolnir. Now CGR's scaling is as follows:

CGR > Pre-Thanos Quest Thanos >= Adam Warlock > Olik > Ulik >= Thor/Green Hulk/Silver Surfer

Going further, we also have a brief altercation between the older Hulk and the Fallen One. He stops Hulk with a single arm with Hulk not really doing any damage and only really hurts himself. I think this shows that the Fallen One is really above his younger self. It should also be noted that he was only beaten by Thanos and King Thanos after they blindsided him with Surtur's Twilight Sword and almost immediately getting Mjolnir away from the Fallen One by cutting his arm off with the same sword, thus depriving him of his most powerful weapon.

Powers

The Fallen One key would have all the powers of base Silver Surfer plus those granted by Mjolnir.

So, what do you all think? I'm willing to answer questions.

 

[Schnee_One]

Would it grant all the powers of Odin? Or Thor?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Schnee

It would of Thor, primarily the abilities that Thor needs Mjolnir to perform. Things like Lightning Manip, Homing Attack, Anti-Matter Manip, etc. I would say that because there's alot of overlap between what Thor and Surfer can each do.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Nice do you need a Pic of hulk puching Surfer?

 

[Antvasima]

This is an alternative future version that only appeared once in a story with extremely inconsistent powerscaling. An extra key would be inappropriate.

 

[Schnee_One]

Why is it inconsistent? With what?

 

[Antvasima]

Thanos blowing the head off Galactus, yet having problems against the Silver Surfer. Black Bolt killing a bunch of Celestials, etcetera.

 

[Schnee_One]

Thanos blowing the head off Galactus is the outlier, not him having trouble with Surfer

This is a Different Surfer as well.

 

[Antvasima]

I prefer to not feature any characters from that story, as it did not particularly make any sense in terms of powerscaling, and featured unimportant temporary alternative versions. Thanos also beat up Thor with the Odinforce in a flashback, if I do not misremember.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

He beat everyone in the universe. Including the abstracts by presumably unknown means than proceeds to tank a death scream from Black Bolt that killed the Celestials. Than a million years later he's comparable to an amped Silver Surfer with Mjolnir and 1 million years in preparation and Young Thanos Post God Quarry annihilated him in h2h combat.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

One possibility is Old King Thanos got incomprehenaibly weaker for the sake of plot. Which makes his loss is PiS. There's also the fact that he didn't call Thanos so they could team up to kill SS. He did it so he could kill Young Thanos and offer him to Death as the ultimate prize. Thanos himself says Old King Thanos got weaker iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

The story first said that his power had significantly increased wih age, and then he was suddenly weaker than his younger self anyway.

Almost nothing within it made any sense.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Black Bolt had ridiculous power for no reason. The Abstracts can leave bodies lying around. Galactus runs at Thanos with a rifle. Silver Surfer, a portion of Galactus' power with part of Odin's is a threat.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It does have imconsistencies for sure.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean Silver Surfer himself isn't the inconsistency. It's King Thanos who messes most stuff up for you. So you could just ignore that scaling if you don't accept it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and logically this was just the regular Silver Surfer with his power doubled and wielding Mjolnir as a weapon. That is all. It is also not significant enough to grant him a new profile page. We have rules against featuring every alternative timeline version that appears in Marvel comicbooks.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Hmmm. Ok.

 

[Antvasima]

Is it fine if I close this thread then?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

C2 might still have things to say. So maybe keep it open for a while if he doesn't respond than yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Esosa616]

It baffles me how black bolt was able to one shot celestials including the living tribunal with a massive scream. Lmao!!. So much PIS or is that universe less stronger than the main stream universe?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok, I don't have a lot of time sadly, but I'll try to use what I have.

1. Justification for having the key.

Okay, I understand that we don't to have every single alternate version. However, we have a key for Cosmic Carnage. Cosmic Carnage is literally from a completely difference universe (Earth-985) and is featured for like an issue. Yet, we have it on the Carnage's page, despite the fact that we don't really know if the Carnage and the Silver Surfer of that universe are up to par with the standard 616.

The Fallen One, on the other hand, is what Silver Surfer would have become. The timeline that produces King Thanos, Cosmic Ghost Rider and the Fallen One is directly linked to the 616 universe. How do we know this? Because after defeating the Fallen One, almost killing King Thanos and speaking to Death, Thanos goes back in time and takes steps so that he'll never become King Thanos. King Thanos and his timeline are erased because of this. Thus, showing that the timeline was pretty much the future.

So, if we can have a version of Carnage, that isn't even directly linking to Earth-616, I think we can have one for the Fallen One, who was truly a future incarnation of the Silver Surfer.

2. Scaling

I will completely agree that King Thanos, himself, is inconsistent. What he's been said/shown to have done vs. what we've seen of him don't matchup. But, it's for that very reason, that I left him out of the Fallen One's scaling.

Remember, that the King Thanos timeline keeps all the events of the past and current Earth-616. So, we know how powerful a savage Green Hulk is. Also, we know how powerful Cosmic Ghost Rider is based off his own miniseries. That's why I based the scaling off of his performance against CGR and Hulk.

Based off the fact the Fallen One has all of Silver Surfer's feats, wields a Mjolnir which also shares all the same feats as the normal 616 Mjolnir, has millions of years more experience and completely shrugs off two opponents (one of which is more powerful then his younger self and the other having been a match for his young self) and is a pretty good indicator how strong he is and what he's capable of. We have to keep in mind that this isn't just an alternate Silver Surfer, whose history we don't know and can't even begin to know how powerful he is or should be.

The only major issue is his fight against the two Thanos. However, as we already said, King Thanos is too inconsistent to properly use for or against the Fallen One. Worse, King Thanos is using Surtur's Twilight Blade, an extremely powerful magical weapon that can be used to enhance the power of a 2-C being or can be used in a spell that changes history and reality. So, we can't say how powerful King Thanos, especially with such a weapon, really is and we can't use how the Fallen One was killed due to that. So, it's better to just disregard it.

Well, this is all I've got time for. Gotta go work. Won't be back until after 9:00pm EST.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should remove the "Carnage Cosmic" statistics as well if he was that inconsequential, and would appreciate community help with this, as I have limited available time and energy.

I still won't allow us to add the future Silver Surfer though, and think that The Keeper should be deleted for the same reason, as he is also an obscure alternative timeline version.

 

[Revan_Laha]

Shouldn't King Thanos be 2-C for killing Old King Thor

 

[Antvasima]

Well, his story logic is so incredibly awful that we should just ignore everything within the storyline in question.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, it seems like "Carnage Cosmic" happened in an in-continuity story, but just very briefly: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/the-amazing-spider-man-431-the-carnage-cosmic/4000-64467/

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Well, his story logic is so incredibly awful that we should just ignore everything within the storyline in question.

So a story being 'bad' is reason not to have a profile now?

 

[Antvasima]

No, but containing consistent complete nonsense powerscaling is, as the entire plot consisted of monumental outliers. That makes it useless for our purposes.

 

[AshenCrow777]

The only reason why old king Thanos lost was because he wanted Thanos of the past to kill him so he can be finally united with Death but then when Thanos found out he said **** it went into the past with the shard of time stone that cosmic ghost rider had and erased that time line.


Also in the story it is shown that Thanos use numerous artifacts to kill several beings in the universe.


And if we really go by that logic Ant that means there's a lot of one off character's we have to remove.

 

[IDrey]

I've already done a thread explaining about Thanos and King Thanos: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3313441. The God Quarry explains all of his feats, there's no inconsitency in his power.

About having trouble with Silver Surfer: When Thanos questions King Thanos, he says that Thanos never faced anything like that. So, that's obviously not regular Silver Surfer,

About Black Bolt killing celestials: That could be the biggest incosistency here, but it's million years in the future, we can't know how Strong Black Bolt became.

 

[Antvasima]

If you do not accept that there are several very serious blatant outlier plot holes in this story, I do not know what to tell you. Future Thanos was also overpowered by his past version. He could not just shut down his natural durability.

My apologies, but I will close this thread now, as I do not have enough time and energy to waste on this anymore. Please do not bring up this topic again, as I am tired of repeatedly dealing with it.