Silver Samurai - Shelved till the other CRTs get resolved

[Tllmbrg]

Okay but this's not even a scaling problem
We're just going "Let's make the baseline assumption that stuff doesn't operate like IRL"

Also just saying that Cap's page literally mentions that his shield absorbs force:
"Captain America's Shield: Steve Rogers' greatest and most iconic weapon as Captain America is his shield. Made from a Proto-Adamantium / Vibranium Alloy that has never been duplicated, the shield is one of the most durable items in the universe, being capable of taking full-powered attacks from the likes of Thor, The Hulk, and Silver Surfer without even suffering a small-dent. Furthermore, the Shield also absorbs most-kinetic energy from impacts due to its Vibranium component, which is why Captain America doesn't get sent flying when he blocks attacks from such powerful opponents. The shield is also highly aerodynamic, receiving minimal wind resistance and deflection of path, which combined with Steve Rogers' inhuman precision and skill makes it a highly efficient throwing weapon."

Rhino I don't see why we can't scale his baseline durability to lower then with his suit, heck we don't even give proper reasoning on his page for durability
Hammerhead is also a bad example because no him running and ramming into people wouldn't translate to the rest of his body, just the part he rams to
The reasoning on page for just higher durability with plate is also bad since they give the reasoning that an Amed High 8-C hurt his hand punching it, like why isn't it just High 8-C then?
Iron Man and Crimson weren't even debunked by being weird tech stuff, Zark just said to read the issues which isn't even a good counter

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

This seems ok to add.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_Impress

So what should we do here?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay so Impress hasn't responded in a week since her last comment and 2 days since Ant last pinged her
By this point can we just ignore her arguments and move along?

If there was an IRL reason for why she didn't respond after a whole week then she should've notified the thread, as is we're being delayed for seemingly no reason and there's a CRT that's currently frozen due to this one (That being LordTracer's) so it's extremely unfair for it to be delayed as well due to Impress deciding to not respond to the thread at all after entering it

I'd even argue if she suddenly decides to pop back into the thread she should be ignored because any counter arguments she makes now she could've made several days ago
And before anyone says anything no saying you'll respond tommrowish like she did in her last comment on the thread does not count as notifying because that doesn't translate to not responding for a whole week, and unless her sickness is terminal which I highly doubt there's no reason it should've kept her from responding

 

[Tllmbrg]

So since outside Impress there was no disagreement with my proposition can I start applying my revision to the page?

 

[Antvasima]

What statistics do you currently wish to apply?

 

[Tllmbrg]

High 8-C, higher with Tachyon Field possibly up to 4-B for AP ig
Durability is just High 8-C

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can you remind me why he should be High 8-C instead of 8-C in terms of raw power please?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Tho just saying in the first scan for him fighting Spider-Man after he hurled Spider-Man he was nearly blacking out

This feat alongside hurting Spider-Man with unmapped sword (in the scans of the CRT)

 

[Antvasima]

That was just one very early appearance though. He has generally been shown to be physically comparable to Wolverine.

 

[Tllmbrg]

No he hasn't
He always stabs through Wolverine with ease and when Wolverine starts using his claws he stomps in return (And we rate those as 4-B)

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay, so "High 8-C, possibly far higher with his sword (It has been credibly stated that it can cut through any substance weaker than adamantium)"?

Also you literally agreed to High 8-C, only real argument was over durability

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that Wolverine tends to defeat SS rather quickly, and that SS has never overpowered him via sheer physical superiority.

 

[Antvasima]

Also you literally agreed to High 8-C, only real argument was over durability

I recurrently reevaluate, especially if I did not think something through initially.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I thought that Wolverine tends to defeat SS rather quickly, and that SS has never overpowered him via sheer physical superiority.

Kinda hard to do against someone you can't beat at all
Like what is Silver Samurai suppose to do?
Any damage he does gets healed by Wolverine and he can't cut his skeleton

Also he has beaten Wolverine in a fist fight so it's not even that he's equal per say

 

[Tllmbrg]

Heck even of the other 2 fights linked his page he's not really shown as equal, just getting ****** due to Wolverine's claws
He stabs through him easily

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems like they are of comparable punching power from the scans above.

 

[Tllmbrg]

How?
He can't do jack to Wolverine due to the Katter's skeleton and when he lands he easily hurts him

 

[Antvasima]

Look, the issue is just that SS has no official strength enhancements. He usually fights Wolverine without that his superior physical strength is a major issue, and he only has one very early instance of kicking around Spider-Man (who Chris Claremont usually tends to write as a pushover), before he was properly defined. That is not sufficient for a physical upgrade according to our Marvel rules. We need consistency.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I fail to see how him not having official strength enhancements matters, unless you're arguing he's like Daredevil or something which ends as 9-A so that's a moot point

And as I've shown Wolverine isn't even portrayed as stronger, also there's another instance linked of him hurting Spider-Man

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that we need much greater consistency for a High 8-C rating. Otherwise we would eventually end up with Wolverine, Captain America, and similar characters scaling from Spider-Man in terms of raw power.

However, I am very tired and busy, and do not have the time and energy to argue further about this issue. As far as I am concerned this is rejected, but if you wish to wait for Impress, she might have a different view.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Dude, literally outside you nobody had problems with this
Several Marvel people are okay with this, also I literally said why by this point we should ignore anything she says

 

[Antvasima]

Who are the people that are okay with this?

I still think that it would mess up our scaling structure a lot, and that we need a greater amount of consistency than just his first appearance, so I would appreciate if we could scale him from Wolverine and Captain America instead.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Who are the people that are okay with this?

I still think that it would mess up our scaling structure a lot, and that we need a greater amount of consistency than just his first appearance, so I would appreciate if we could scale him from Wolverine and Captain America instead.

Sandman and Medusa as far as I can tell.
Silver Samurai isn't used for anything scaling wise so how he'd mess it up is beyond me, also his first appearance is against Daredevil not Spider-Man
I don't even know why Captain America is mentioned since they never even fought, not to mention that the amount of fights Silver Samurai had with Spider-Man is 3 which is nearly as much as Wolverine

 

[Antvasima]

He has turned into a Wolverine antagonist, so if we upgrade him, others would demand that we upgrade Wolverine, and if we upgrade Wolverine, all in the same strength class would follow.

 

[LordTracer]

If people demand for Logan to be upgraded, then you can just explain why he wouldn’t get the upgrade. Hell, you could just put a note on the profile explaining why Logan wouldn’t be upgraded if necessary.

 

[Tllmbrg]

What LordTracer said, plus who cares if people demand that?

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that Wolverine is portrayed comparable to the Silver Samurai, so it makes considerably more sense to scale them to each other than to Spider-Man from a single outlier incident, due to that Chris Claremont almost consistently writes Spider-Man as a beta male.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Dude I keep explaining he's only comparable because he can't win at all due to Wolverine's regeneration and skeleton, at worst he can knock him out
And as I keep saying this's not a single incident

 

[Antvasima]

How many incidents are there of the Silver Samurai matching High 8-C level opponents via physical power alone? We tend to scale Marvel antagonists from the protagonists that they fight most frequently as a rule, and I personally strongly doubt that SS is intended to be significantly physically stronger than Wolverine or Sabretooth, for example.

 

[LordTracer]

We tend to scale Marvel antagonists from the protagonists that they fight most frequently as a rule

We don’t do that with Captain America villains (although most of them are tiered weaker than Cap as opposed to stronger).

 

[Tllmbrg]

How many incidents are there of the Silver Samurai matching High 8-C level opponents via physical power alone? We tend to scale Marvel antagonists from the protagonists that they fight most frequently as a rule, and I personally strongly doubt that SS is intended to be significantly physically stronger than Wolverine or Sabretooth, for example.

He has 3 fights with Spider-Man, 1 with Jessica Drew unarmored (We currently rate her High 8-C as well so) and in literally all his fights with Wolverine as I've shown multiple times he slashes the dude easily without even showing his Tachyon field so I really fail to see how he's portrayed as equal to him rather then just heavily countered

 

[Antvasima]

We should do that with most Marvel characters, unless there is very good reasons for an exception. We especially do so with the Spider-Man villains.

 

[Antvasima]

He has 3 fights with Spider-Man, 1 with Jessica Drew unarmored (We currently rate her High 8-C as well so) and in literally all his fights with Wolverine as I've shown multiple times he slashes the dude easily without even showing his Tachyon field so I really fail to see how he's portrayed as equal to him rather then just heavily countered

Hmm. Maybe. It is not certain at all though. As I mentioned, it is generally more reliable to scale from the most frequent protagonist that the antagonists fight against, or vice versa.

I think that we should be patient and wait for Impress to come back, to be safe in our conclusions. Alternately, I could send notifications to some reasonably knowledgeable staff members.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

He has 3 fights with Spider-Man, 1 with Jessica Drew unarmored (We currently rate her High 8-C as well so) and in literally all his fights with Wolverine as I've shown multiple times he slashes the dude easily without even showing his Tachyon field so I really fail to see how he's portrayed as equal to him rather then just heavily countered

^ I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

How many separate stories does SS have of fighting with and matching High 8-C characters? Fighting Spider-Man 3 times in a single Chris Claremont story should only count as one, for example.

 

[Tllmbrg]

A single story?
Those were separate instances in separate issues, also I see you ignored me mentioning Jessica Drew (Spider-Woman)

 

[Antvasima]

I was askig you a polite question regarding if the fights with Spider-Man were all from the Silver Samurai's introduction storyline written by Chris Claremont, who usually wrote Spider-Man as a pushover.

If they are, we only have two stories of him matching High 8-C characters, who were likely not written at anywhere near such a power level in these instances, and many more fighting an 8-C character.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Again, separate issues so I really fail to see how this's a 1 time deal Spider-Man fights wise
Also maybe the writing Spider-Man as as a push over point would be valid if it happened once but it wasn't so

Also no not really, his other showings are actually split between 9-As like Elektra and Daredevil and then 8-Cs like Wolverine

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I'm still in agreement to make him High 8-C. 4 wins against High 8-C's, superior to an 8-C seems good enough to me and not generally a contradiction. Additionally, isn't Wolverine 4-B via claws? If anything, that makes it less of a contradiction.