Should We Make Profiles For The Divine Comedy?

[Antvasima]

Wouldn't it be easier to just have the God profile just have one key since the Divine Comedy uses the Trinity doctrine, where the three are the same-substance of a God-Head entity? Splitting them into three, while correct doctrine wise, seems weird profile wise since like, they'd all have the same abilities.

@Ultima_Reality

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Ant, the issue I take with this stance it that disregards how we already risk such controversy with the fact we index many profiles of God specifically on this wiki as he appears across a pleothra of fictional works.

Dante's Divine Comedy is not exceptional in this at all. Dante just took a lot of inspiration from the god of the bible when creating this story, and that's okay. It isn't a problem at all.

How does this even justify it? We already have risky profiles so it's ok to make risker profiles... Like what?

The specific sandbox being a near replica of that from the Bible doesn't matter what fictional work it is from, as the "fictional work" has taken from the Religious texts

I just see it as trying to make a loophole to get the God from the Bible into the wiki which is very disrespectful in my view

 

[Gasper]

It's not the "inspired work of fiction" that they'll get offended about is what I'm talking about

Yes, you're talking about theology, I get it.
Divine Comedy is heavily inspired by platonic forms which don't apply to the Bible at all.

 

[Gasper]

How does this even justify it? We already have risky profiles so it's ok to make risker profiles... Like what?

The specific sandbox being a near replica of that from the Bible doesn't matter what fictional work it is from, as the "fictional work" has taken from the Religious texts

I just see it as trying to make a loophole to get the God from the Bible into the wiki which is very disrespectful in my view

It looks like you're keep ignoring what I'm saying for some reason.

Nowhere in the Bible is there 10 heavens, nine circles of hell, platonic forms, vergin Mary isn't divine in the bible either while she is in the poem.
I can go on and on.

Another question, are you personally offended by including the poem?

 

[Planck69]

I don't mind us making the profiles. It's ultimately a very faithful fantasy adaptation, not that categorically different from most other God expies we have on the site. I'll leave the details (assuming this is agreed with) to Ultima and the others.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Nowhere in the Bible is there 10 heavens, nine circles of hell, platonic forms, vergin Mary isn't divine in the bible either while she is in the poem.
I can go on and on.

Alright, for the sake of full disclosure: This is only a half-truth.

Being specific here, Dante was a Catholic. The Divine Comedy is thus based on Catholic theology. So, God being the undifferentiated ground of being, Angels being subsisting Forms, the divinisation of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, etc. All of these things are, indeed, grounded in what's taught by the Catholic Church. Dante differs from his contemporaries and his predecessors in some details of his metaphysics, but his system is still in the same overall framework. So I don't believe your responses would do much to persuade the opposition here.

That said, I don't really know if the opposition's stance is a precedent which we would wish to set forth on the wiki. Are we really going to make "Accuracy to religion" a measure of whether a work inspired by it is fine to index on-site? How far does that extend? Are we going to go ahead and do a background check on all such works to determine if they can stay here?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Divine Comedy is maybe a dogma. Regardless, it's not offensive to use it at all. That would entirely be how strict someone's view of their faith is. I'm Catholic and I don't see Divine Comedy as some sort of principle to live by. It's just a telling tale of Dante and Beatrice's adventure across the different afterlives.

John Milton, William Blake, and many others take religious inspiration as well but in the end, it's not meant to be some sort of absolute truth in religion, they are created as pieces of fiction to be read for entertainment, not faith.

You don’t see any problems with creating a profile for God that’s the same one from the Bible that’s has barely any differences…?

It does not matter what fictional work it is from in the end

It looks like you're keep ignoring what I'm saying for some reason.

Nowhere in the Bible is there 10 heavens, nine circles of hell, platonic forms, vergin Mary isn't divine in the bible either while she is in the poem.
I can go on and on.

Another question, are you personally offended by including the poem?

I’ve already said how the the poem is fine, you keep ignoring me saying that.

I’m offended by the specific profile that very much is the same as the God from the Bible

This being a debate is absolutely insane to me

How does it being a fictional work mean anything? Just because it’s in a different story you’re able to add anyone outside of that story into vsbw no matter the controversy and or accuracy to it…?

That said, I don't really know if the opposition's stance is a precedent which we would wish to set forth on the wiki. Are we really going to make "Accuracy to religion" a measure of whether a work inspired by it is fine to index on-site? How far does that extend? Are we going to go ahead and do a background check on all such works to determine if they can stay here?

This definitely is already a thing we do, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist in the first place?

 

[Gasper]

You don’t see any problems with creating a profile for God that’s the same one from the Bible that’s has barely any differences…?

It does not matter what fictional work it is from in the end

I’ve already said how the the poem is fine, you keep ignoring me saying that.

I’m offended by the specific profile that very much is the same as the God from the Bible

This being a debate is absolutely insane to me

How does it being a fictional work mean anything? Just because it’s in a different story you’re able to add anyone outside of that story into vsbw no matter the controversy and or accuracy to it…?

This definitely is already a thing we do, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist in the first place?

Then make a separate CRT and delete Jehovah (WOD) profile and krishna (shree Khrisna tv show) as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Monkey, I think that you likely linked to the wrong section of that page.

Here is the text that seems most relevant for this case.

"Do not create profiles for deities and other figures from religions with a significant quantity of modern day followers. This includes those described in Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. Featuring these types of profiles is certain to upset large groups of people.

• In addition, even dead religions, ones with an incredibly small amount of current followers, such as the Aesir faith, and ones for which the followers are agnostic, such as Shintoism, frequently contain myths and interpretations that are radically different and contradictory to each other, which makes it near impossible to pattern coherent information into statistical profile pages. As such, we only make exceptions for mythologies that are based on specific fictional works separate from any mainstream religion, such as Journey to the West and the Shanmeh, that can provide reasonably high coherence and accuracy for our purposes, and lessen the offence to religious believers."

 

[Antvasima]

Then make a separate CRT and delete Jehovah (WOD) profile and krishna (shree Khrisna tv show) as well.

I suppose that this seems like a valid point.

 

[Gasper]

I’ve already said how the the poem is fine, you keep ignoring me saying that.

apparently it's not fine LMAOO.
I don't get what your trying to say.
If it was fine you wouldn't be replying to me at all now.

And like I said, no, Divine Comedy God isn't described similarly to the Bible God at all.
God beyond descriptions, form and being immutable is from theology which applies to many different religions like kabbalah and Gnosticism.

Oh, also, you didn't have problem with Ultima adding quotes from real theology that applies to Kabbalah etc but you have with this?
I'm smelling a little bit of ignorance here.

 

[Gasper]

Monkey, I think that you likely linked to the wrong section of that page.

Here is the text that seems most relevant for this case.

"Do not create profiles for deities and other figures from religions with a significant quantity of modern day followers. This includes those described in Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. Featuring these types of profiles is certain to upset large groups of people.

• In addition, even dead religions, ones with an incredibly small amount of current followers, such as the Aesir faith, and ones for which the followers are agnostic, such as Shintoism, frequently contain myths and interpretations that are radically different and contradictory to each other, which makes it near impossible to pattern coherent information into statistical profile pages. As such, we only make exceptions for mythologies that are based on specific fictional works separate from any mainstream religion, such as Journey to the West and the Shanmeh, that can provide reasonably high coherence and accuracy for our purposes, and lessen the offence to religious believers."

Yes, fortunately this isn't the case here. Unless someone will look me in the face and tell me Divine Comedy is canon to Christianity while being serious while doing it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This definitely is already a thing we do, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist in the first place?

I am aware that the concept of doing a background check on verses is not foreign to us. What I mean, specifically, is the idea that we have to evaluate these sorts of works specifically based on their religious accuracy before we decide to index them, which sounds like a pretty dangerous idea, to be quite frank.

 

[Antvasima]

Tone down the "LMAOO" mocking tone please, Gasper.

 

[Gasper]

Tone down the "LMAOO" mocking tone please, Gasper.

I'm sorry.

 

[Antvasima]

I am aware that the concept of doing a background check on verses is not foreign to us. What I mean, specifically, is the idea that we have to evaluate these sorts of works specifically based on their religious accuracy before we decide to index them, which sounds like a pretty dangerous idea, to be quite frank.

Yes, that is a valid point. I suppose that I will likely have to allow this then, but I am uneasy with potentially instigating severe controversy.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry.

No problem, but please try to avoid doing so again in the future when visiting our community.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Jehovah (WOD)

While this is still “a risky” profile which I view as disrespectful, it still has differences from the ones of the Bible as it doesn’t have the three entities of God that the God from the Bible is based on

I don’t know about the other religions and how accurate it is for them… so I can’t speak on their behalf

krishna (shree Khrisna tv show)

If that has nothing that differentiates from the one from the religion then it shouldn’t be fine as well… but I also can’t speak on behalf of other religions as I don’t know how sacred they are

What I mean, specifically, is the idea that we have to evaluate these sorts of works specifically based on their religious accuracy before we decide to index them, which sounds like a pretty dangerous idea, to be quite frank.

if it’s a dangerous idea then simply don’t allow it to begin with? Plus it’s way worse to index something that is controversial and not fine to implement then it is to try evaluating it

 

[Gasper]

While this is still “a risky” profile which I view as disrespectful, it still has differences from the ones of the Bible as it doesn’t have the three entities of God that the God from the Bible is based on

I don’t know about the other religions and how accurate it is for them… so I can’t speak on their behalf

If that has nothing that differentiates from the one from the religion then it shouldn’t be fine as well… but I also can’t speak on behalf of other religions as I don’t know how sacred they are

Bro, a fictional God from board game that uses concepts from theology offends you?
I'm sorry but i genuinely can not comprehend this logic at all.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's based on Dante’s depiction of God. I hardly count his views as Universal to the Catholic church. It’s purely meant to entice the reader with a unique twist on things hence why terms like Primum Mobile, Empyrean, Circles of Hell, etc…exist and not at all a point of contingency to copy Christian doctrine word for word.

Sure, it is similar, but that's really because it's based on the doctrine of monotheistic religions. Its similarity would be the equivalent of Mike Carey Lucifer who borrows from Milton, Blake, and Dante. Still, a piece of fiction that some Christians got mad at but regardless, the work of someone, who isn't purposefully deterred accepted things in Christianity. It's a poem, an excerpt about a spiritual journey which should be fine especially if Dante put “his” twist of it.

It doesn’t have to copy the Christian doctrines word for word to know who he’s talking about…

There are no “twists” that I see on the sandbox that differentiates the God that is from Bible

 

[Ultima_Reality]

if it’s a dangerous idea then simply don’t allow it to begin with?

The "dangerous idea," in this case, is the usage of religious and theological accuracy as a metric for how acceptable a work of fiction is to index, which is ultimately what you are doing. You are effectively saying "Don't allow this because then I'll be forced to argue against it using stuff that straddles the line." The thing that risks laying a bad precedent is precisely what you are using to argue here.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Bro, a fictional God from board game that uses concepts from theology offends you?
I'm sorry but i genuinely can not comprehend this logic at all.

The same way I would defend my own family members or someone else to not be put on profiles just because they are in a “fictional work”

You unable to comprehend it would seem like you’re the one being ignorant

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Just to note, I do see some risk. If it does help then a formal voting with the mods may be warranted. This means the Krishna, God(Divine Comedy), and all things tied to some sort of religious stoup would have to be removed.

A formal voting is probably a good idea.

@Antvasima Can you call the staff here?

 

[Antvasima]

A formal voting is probably a good idea.

@Antvasima Can you call the staff here?

Okay. No problem.

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

What do you think should be done here?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The "dangerous idea," in this case, is the usage of religious and theological accuracy as a metric for how acceptable a work of fiction is to index, which is ultimately what you are doing. You are effectively saying "Don't allow this because then I'll be forced to argue against it using stuff that straddles the line." The thing that risks laying a bad precedent is precisely what you are using to argue here.

“Don’t allow this because it is too much related and has no differences to a specific religion”

Is something even you viewed as a possible problem, don’t act like the problem doesn’t exist to begin with

This thread is exactly that in which you mentioned with trying to say it’s fictional so it’s fine…

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Okay. No problem.

What do you think should be done here?

By the by, since this has been moved to Staff Discussion, and the staff is being called, I'll delete any comments from regular users from here and onwards. I've left Goofy's comment standing because he makes a valid point that bears to keep in mind, but otherwise, ask for permission.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, just a note that people should try to be nice to MonkeyOfLife, even if they do not agree with him. He is easily one of our genuinely nicest members by my experience.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You're also forgetting that “God” is Universal in the context of the supreme sense. In a more monotheistic approach, it would almost always involve the being that created the Universe, angels, and men.

In other religions, it's a supernatural force that underlines all of Reality whether through proxy mention of God or somewhat angolous. I don't get your logic here and I have to say it is quite bad. This would mean all profiles involving God as religiously inspired should be removed. In other words, all God profiles. Which I find illogical and very bad.

All god profiles do not use the God from a religion with nothing that differentiates it from said religion…

this isn’t even comparable at all

 

[Damage3245]

Yes, this is 100% fine to index.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

If I’m simply outvoted on this and people somehow don’t view it as a problem then it is what it is

But I’m mostly likely not going to affiliate myself with something that’s disrespectful to a religion via adding a God from a religion with nothing that differentiates it to a battle wiki

 

[Antvasima]

If I’m simply outvoted on this and people somehow don’t view it as a problem then it is what it is

But I’m mostly likely not going to affiliate myself with something that’s disrespectful to a religion via adding a God from a religion with nothing that differentiates it to a battle wiki

I am very sorry to hear that, as I think that you have been an excellent staff member, and I personally very much like you.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I am very sorry to hear that, as I think that you have been an excellent staff member, and I personally very much like you.

What’s your stance on this matter? For or against?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm fine with it, with the asterisk that it should be removed if it does cause any significant controversy. I don't think it will, but it is a non-zero percent chance, at least.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am very sorry to hear that, as I think that you have been an excellent staff member, and I personally very much like you.

Thank you very much for the kind words

You’ve always tried to lead to positivity, which I highly respect

From the perspective of what I’ve learnt from my religion is that I would rather pick my God then the world.

A similar way I respect my family, I do to God so I simply cannot just ignore and act like everything is fine with indexing so similarly to the God from the Bible into a battle wiki just because it’s in a “fictional work.”

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This should be fine to index.

 

[Phoenks]

This seems fine for indexing, but I think you should probably ban matches for the verse to be safe (For the non Tier 0 religious figures. Tier 0 is already unmatchable anyway).

To avoid potential heat that could arise from people throwing Christian figures at Anime characters or something, lol. "Jesus Christ VS Deku!!!" Y'know?

I don't think just indexing them is nearly as susceptible to flame wars as that.

 

[Yasuda_144]

And like I said, no, Divine Comedy God isn't described similarly to the Bible God at all.

Every single description of God in the Divine Comedy is heavily derived from actual Catholic magisterial teaching, because Dante Alighieri was a devout Catholic who wouldn't just say random shit about the being he called Most High cause he felt like it.

As for the Bible not describing God in those exact ways, Catholics aren't fervent believers in Sola Scriptura to put it lightly.

I don't think Milton is a good comparison either because Paradise Lost is very explicitly a heavily narrativized and mythicized telling of the story of Satan's fall. I'm going to guess that Milton didn't believe that Pagan gods were literally real guys who actually held godlike powers but happened to be demons in disguise.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay. No problem.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think should be done here?

Well, I already said in the Tier 0 thread that I don't like how it classifies a specific philosophy of omnipotence used by certain religions as superior to all others. This is five steps more in the same direction. So I think everyone can guess my personal opinion on this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It’s 4-2 so far and I feel like there's going to be a huge debate between two certain people here.

There won't be any debate, frankly. I'm fine with whatever the consensus ends up leaning towards, so long as it doesn't cause internal inconsistencies in our procedures.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly

my vote was on the basis that people wouldn't have a problem with it, and if they did then it would be a very small minority. People have talked about their position as a Christian and not being offended by it, and that's good, but as an atheist it's not my intent to offend any of the Christians (nor any other religion, of course) over something so petty as powerscaling. If people already have issues with it, it shouldn't be included- because one can only imagine that more people are going to hold issue with it down the line.

Switch my vote up to "against".