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The profile is allowable imo
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Should We Make Profiles For The Divine Comedy?
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
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- Tags
- the divine comedy
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@VeryGoofyToddler; stop commenting on the thread. It's not helpful and this is in the Staff Discussion section.
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Well, I do not truly mind on a personal level, and I have an extremely hard time seeing how God would care about us featuring this page, especially as the page itself does not seem disrespectful compared to, for example, Shin Megami Tensei.
I am just worried about potential controversy, including how MonkeyOfLife is considering to leave our community because of this.
I am just worried about potential controversy, including how MonkeyOfLife is considering to leave our community because of this.
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As I've already kinda addressed, especially when it's too closely related to the God from the Bible, it would be at the same level as trying to index a family member into a battle wiki in the eyes of a Christian, which wouldn't make any sense at all to why that would be fine
This is also written in the Bible, giving God "stats" and making a profile for him in a place meant for powerscaling and battles is simply disrespectful and I don't see how you wouldn't be able to see that
This how I view it for that specific sandbox
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- Thread starter
- #85
After much thinking: Consider me on the "against" side, frankly.
If the consensus rules in favor of permitting the indexing of it, then so be it, but regardless, I will not be the one making that profile.
If the consensus rules in favor of permitting the indexing of it, then so be it, but regardless, I will not be the one making that profile.
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We index Record of Ragnarok and the many divine characters there. Indexing Dante's Inferno is functionally no different. Not a single reference in that sandbox points to the Bibble, as far as I can tell, just to a piece of fiction that is inspired by the Bible. We also have a profile for God from Bruce Almighty who is explicitly the God of the Bible in the film.
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Bruce Almighty is clearly way different from the God in the Bible... How are you comparing that to the Bible at all? No christian would ever see the God from the Bible in that profile
Record of Ragnarok also are very much different to their respective religion both in looks and how they act, would be quite disrespectful to say that those gods are the same ones as the ones on the religious texts
There's a clear difference in making a character be similar to a god then it is to make profile from a fictional setting that's taken from the Bible not just inspired... The names of The Father, The son and The Holy Spirit wouldn't be there then which is directly taken from the Bible
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Does Bruce Almighty's God not introduce himself as the "Alpha and Omega", the "creator of the heavens and earth"? Does he not instruct Evan to create an Ark to save two of every animal?
How is this not meant to be the biblical God?
There are differences of course because it's not an actual religious text, but the divines in Record of Ragnarok are clearly meant to be the real things, not imitations or imposters.
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I have permission from Ultima to bring this up.
Wouldn't something like Eru from LotR also necessarily have to be deleted since Eru is quite explicitly and literally meant to be Tolkiens catholic view of God while also having a largely accurate theological conformation to God. While some of the creation myth of LotR is more different and fantastic, Eru himself is still meant to accurately depict the catholic view of God and "literally" be Him.
Wouldn't something like Eru from LotR also necessarily have to be deleted since Eru is quite explicitly and literally meant to be Tolkiens catholic view of God while also having a largely accurate theological conformation to God. While some of the creation myth of LotR is more different and fantastic, Eru himself is still meant to accurately depict the catholic view of God and "literally" be Him.
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Because it isn't...? It's a human actor, trying to act similar to the one from the Bible...
The other is to take the God from the Bible and put it in the setting of Divine Comedy, it's way different
But they simply are imitations and imposters outside of the verse... as you said "because it's not an actual religious text"
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(As a Christian) this is dangerously close to the biblical showcase of God. Looking at the profile alone it looks like an author copied and pasted God from the bible and put it in their series.
I am not fully for or against this profile existing, but there needs to be a large number of limits that this profile has if it is added. Such as no vs matches, no actual tie to the biblical God and nothing from IRL that can be equated to it unless it's directly mentioned in said series, and more.
Can't lie and say not allying w/ Monkey on this, cause I definitely do see his POV and view. I'm more lenient on the indexing but if it must be indexed, then a lot of rules need to be placed around this profile.
Personally I'm neutral, leaning towards disagree. It seems too much to index a being people worship (or a character damn near 1:1) on our wiki where we have immature kids here. I can easily visualize somebody joking asking if "The One" could beat Featherine and a whole argument being brought forth from it.
I am not fully for or against this profile existing, but there needs to be a large number of limits that this profile has if it is added. Such as no vs matches, no actual tie to the biblical God and nothing from IRL that can be equated to it unless it's directly mentioned in said series, and more.
Can't lie and say not allying w/ Monkey on this, cause I definitely do see his POV and view. I'm more lenient on the indexing but if it must be indexed, then a lot of rules need to be placed around this profile.
Personally I'm neutral, leaning towards disagree. It seems too much to index a being people worship (or a character damn near 1:1) on our wiki where we have immature kids here. I can easily visualize somebody joking asking if "The One" could beat Featherine and a whole argument being brought forth from it.
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That's a pretty ridiculous distinction to make.
If you're going to boil down Bruce Almighty's version of God to "a human actor trying to be similar to the one from the Bible", then Dante's Divine Comedy is just words on a piece of a paper that has some similarity to the one from the Bible.
Then why can't we say the say from Dante's Divine Comedy? Just treat it as a fictional imitation.
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I don't think you can equate a profile of a character that says "I'm God, build an Ark, do miracles" with a character where more than half of the profile is reworded texts of the bible
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Because it isn't only a "fictional imitation" when things are taken from the Bible and placed on the Setting
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Yeah literally saying like half of the name section of this character alone not directed towards God is a sin
Like come on
Like come on
Bro
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Once they're put into the setting, those things are then fictional in the context of the setting. Like how you can have the real-life Jesus, but if you then introduce a fictional character in a series who is called Jesus, then that Jesus becomes fictional.
If you can separate reality and fiction, then there shouldn't really be any issue with respecting the real-life biblical God and entertaining the notion of a fictional God from a different piece of media.
So long as those titles are listed in the Divine Comedy, then they're fine to list.
If any of those titles come exclusively from the Bible, then those ones would be removed.
Personally I don't see a difference. But if there are people who do see a difference, and wouldn't feel comfortable with such a profile... Then they're not required to look at, work on or edit the profile(s) in question.
If a devout Muslim takes offense at the existence of South Park because of that shows blasphemous history, then they're not obligated to view or edit any South Park profiles on the wiki.
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- Thread starter
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Much of these are Dante's original titles for God, and we have profiles that arguably do worse (Shin Megami Tensei features all of the names of God as entities on their own right, up to and including the Tetragrammaton, of all things), so, I don't believe that, in particular, is a very good objection.
Furthermore:
Mind you, what I'm requesting here is that we be logical and consistent with why we would reject this.
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We removed Logan Paul's WWE character self from the wiki in its entirety because he's too similar to the Logan Paul of the real world.
We giving a God profile more leniency than Logan Paul?
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I'd say so, yeah.
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Yeah tender my resignation alongside @MonkeyOfLife if this goes through
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I have permission from KingTempest to talk here.
I genuinely don't think that anyone has the right to tell a Christian what they should or shouldn't consider to be disrespectful when talking about a sensitive topic like this. Regardless of the fact that the character from The Divine Comedy is at the end of the day fictional, they are still obviously intended to be a direct mirror of the God of the Bible. It's by nature sinful according to Christian Theology.
Like Mr. Bambu said above, the simple fact that we have Christians in this community taking offense to the sandbox to the point to where they would literally leave the site if it gets added should honestly be enough to say that it shouldn't, and as a Christian myself I definitely feel as though doing so would be incredibly disrespectful. I don't know how this is even a debate.
As for everything else in the verse being added, I think it should be okay
I genuinely don't think that anyone has the right to tell a Christian what they should or shouldn't consider to be disrespectful when talking about a sensitive topic like this. Regardless of the fact that the character from The Divine Comedy is at the end of the day fictional, they are still obviously intended to be a direct mirror of the God of the Bible. It's by nature sinful according to Christian Theology.
Like Mr. Bambu said above, the simple fact that we have Christians in this community taking offense to the sandbox to the point to where they would literally leave the site if it gets added should honestly be enough to say that it shouldn't, and as a Christian myself I definitely feel as though doing so would be incredibly disrespectful. I don't know how this is even a debate.
As for everything else in the verse being added, I think it should be okay
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People are entitled to consider the profiles disrespectful and they can view it as sinful all they want.
But VSBW is not a theocracy.
There is no way that we shouldn't index a fictional character because some people would consider it a sin.
At that point we may as well remove all reference to God or any Gods from the wiki.
But VSBW is not a theocracy.
There is no way that we shouldn't index a fictional character because some people would consider it a sin.
At that point we may as well remove all reference to God or any Gods from the wiki.
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- Thread starter
- #103
I did not give you permission, btw.
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- Thread starter
- #104
Yeah, if true this is honestly the single best point brought up in here, I'd say. We already obviously are to consider actual religious figures as being, so to say, in a separate category from fictional characters, much like real people are. Hence we don't index them at all, even if the wiki as a secular environment obviously considers the matter of their existence as simply outside its scope.
In that light, upon further reflection I believe that the Divine Comedy is to be likened less to Lord of the Rings or Shin Megami Tensei or Bruce Almighty and more to something like The Passion of the Christ.
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Yeah, it's a fictional version of God that happens to be a positive or faithful (In good way) to the Christian pantheon. And mainly resembles the Catholic churches portrayal. It's not like Ten Commandments, Prince of Egypt, or Passion of the Christ which are movies that are basically live action adaptations. Divine Comedy also features plenty of original characters iirc. I am also pretty sure most Christians would fine His Dark Materials or the American Gods portrayals of Biblical figures to be far more offensive than Divine Comedy's.
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I don't think responding to people seeing a profile as disrespectful to their religion by essentially going "sucks to suck" is a good look at all
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Anyways, hard disagree on making Divine Comedy profiles. In no world is making a profile for... literally just God, under the world's thinnest veil, worth the offense actual Christians would feel. This is way too close to actual God
(Actual Christian speaking btw, don't power scale God)
(Actual Christian speaking btw, don't power scale God)
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That's just strange...
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We got a tally up?
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Well, I think that not taking God's name in vain was intended to mean not pretending to speak for God, such as justifying a horrible war with lots of innocent victims on religious grounds, or otherwise justifying evil atrocities in this manner.
Also, I personally believe in God in the manner of Parabrahman/Parashiva and Nirvana, meaning not as an individual with an easily understandable agenda, but as the embodiment of absolutely all that is, absolutely all that is not, and absolutely all transdual beyond that in an infinite complexity far beyond unEnlightened human understanding.
However, I otherwise agree with several of the arguments for why this would be unnecessary, disrespectful, and controversial, and also definitely do not want to lose valuable staff members over this issue.
Also, I personally believe in God in the manner of Parabrahman/Parashiva and Nirvana, meaning not as an individual with an easily understandable agenda, but as the embodiment of absolutely all that is, absolutely all that is not, and absolutely all transdual beyond that in an infinite complexity far beyond unEnlightened human understanding.
However, I otherwise agree with several of the arguments for why this would be unnecessary, disrespectful, and controversial, and also definitely do not want to lose valuable staff members over this issue.
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I don't think it fully means that the statement is mainly about having respect for God's name, He is both our Lord and Savior after all
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It doesn't particularly matter to me that it isn't a good look. I do not care what certain belief systems categorize as a sin and I make no apology for that.
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It's about offending our users that have these beliefs. I don't care if you're not Christian, that's still worth considering when it directly involves a community that has a ton of Christian members. And if you still don't care and still want to die on this hill, I hope you don't act surprised when some consider what you're saying insensitive
In fact, as a Christian myself, I think you are being very insensitive and would prefer if you weren't
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While I may be insensitive when it comes to belief systems, I don't intend any disrespect towards specific users here.
I would never dream of forcing users here to look at or edit a profile that they would consider disrespectful to them and I fully respect their right to be uncomfortable with it and to have an opinion on it
But no way would I agree with deleting it just to appease them.
If several users who are devout Muslims asked us to delete the South Park profiles because they were offended by the show, should we delete them? What makes them being offended less worthwhile than other users?
I would never dream of forcing users here to look at or edit a profile that they would consider disrespectful to them and I fully respect their right to be uncomfortable with it and to have an opinion on it
But no way would I agree with deleting it just to appease them.
If several users who are devout Muslims asked us to delete the South Park profiles because they were offended by the show, should we delete them? What makes them being offended less worthwhile than other users?
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I'm not sure about what goes down in South Park so I can't speak on that
The reason I'm so opposed to this profile is because of just how insanely close to our real world interpretation of God in Christianity is. We have God-esque characters that we index, like Shin Megami Tensei for instance, but they have their caveats that distinctly separate them (I don't remember actual God having a fallen from grace, demonic form). This, meanwhile, is a fantasy series that just slapped on actual God in it. That crosses the line for me in terms of what I think should and should not be indexed.
The reason I'm so opposed to this profile is because of just how insanely close to our real world interpretation of God in Christianity is. We have God-esque characters that we index, like Shin Megami Tensei for instance, but they have their caveats that distinctly separate them (I don't remember actual God having a fallen from grace, demonic form). This, meanwhile, is a fantasy series that just slapped on actual God in it. That crosses the line for me in terms of what I think should and should not be indexed.
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This is the last time that I will say this because I don’t think you fully understand, from the way I see it tho
Something like south park making a Jesus character is disrespectful because we know what it’s directed at but the disrespect comes from the show, not anywhere else
We Christian simply don’t view that as our religion at all, the problem is the wiki indexing something so closely related to the one from the Bible, the disrespect comes only then from the wiki which us Christian like myself is definitely not going to support or be affiliated with
Hopefully you can see where I’m coming from
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I have permission to speak from Dereck03 [1/3]
Also, trying to equate South Park making bad jokes to Dante (in the words of Clover) slapping on actual God into his series is so embarrassingly ignorant that I don't even know how to respond.
The issue isn't whether the depiction is "faithful" (which is false) or not. At the end of the day, it's a caricature of God. I and likely many other Christians would consider this far worse than Dark Materials and American Gods due to the fact that it's trying to portray God himself. Allowing this to go through is like the biggest form of disrespect one can show toward Christianity and the people who follow Christ.
"VSBW is not a theocracy" and can't prevent blatant disrespect toward the identity, belief system, and way of life of billions of people but then in the same breath can ban individuals for sharing their own disrespectful opinions? Sounds oddly convenient.
That is exactly what you're doing. Completely disregarding the fact that possibly hundreds of users would feel disrespected and uncomfortable if the profile were to be made because you simply don't care is an abuse of your privilege to vote and is as good as spitting in their faces.
Also, trying to equate South Park making bad jokes to Dante (in the words of Clover) slapping on actual God into his series is so embarrassingly ignorant that I don't even know how to respond.
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