Should Natsu have Non-Physical Interaction?

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

This has been on my mind for awhile now but I just got around to making this. So currently the Dragon Slayers have Non-Physical Interaction for being able to harm Acnologia's spiritual body however this doesn't seem right. Souls can be intangible but that shouldn't always be the case, especially in one like this where Acnologia is never shown to be intangible or anything like that. He isn't intangible as seen when literally every other Dragon Slayer in the Ravens of Time were able to interact with them. This is also further debunked whenever Natsu wasn't able to harm Ash in 100 Year Quest.


At best Natsu and Co should get limited Non-Physical Interaction and specify that it only works against those with spiritual intangible bodies since it was proven that he can't attack those with Elemental Intangbility. But I think the better option would be to remove it from the profiles all together.

 

[The_Calaca]

Not sure about this.

Acno is listed as non-physical but I find little to no evidence that souls in FT are truly intangible. Also, the fact that the DS could harm him may be explained with the fact that they were inside the RoT.

In any case it should be listed as Limited NPI because only inside the RoT showed to work.

 

[1997KD]

In previous 100yq ch natsu, did this, it will be better if we wait till whole arc is settle down. Not forget that he is able to burn zeref and his soul with his own fire

 

[The_Calaca]

This is from Soul Manipulation's page:

"The ability to attack or destroy a ghost is simply not comparable to directly interacting with the soul of a physical body."

Which is the case here.

 

[1997KD]

But he able to hurt zeref soul(or burn)with his magic

 

[The_Calaca]

Which is Soul Manipulation, not Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[1997KD]

Then i will say just wait for next 2 ch, that's will clear things up

 

[DragonEmperor23]

This is from Soul Manipulation's page:
"The ability to attack or destroy a ghost is simply not comparable to directly interacting with the soul of a physical body."

Which is the case here.

Acnologia wasn't a ghost, that was his soul Natsu destroyed.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Spiritual body actually.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I'm for removing the non physical. Acno was never shown to be intangible so the only evidence for it is gone and elemental intang was untouchable for him.

 

[CNBA3]

Well the DS have been shown to have their respectable elemental tang perk, usually when eating

 

[DragonEmperor23]

No, it's his soul. When someone punches a soul, you don't say that the soul was tangible without evidence, you give that person non physical interaction.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Most of the elements aren't intangible though. Fire is shown to be solid, iron definitely is, air is the same, lightning is physically there, white requires the color (even Larcade's pleasure was solid) and poison is also solid. Only shadows are intangible but when used as an attack, it is solid.

 

[The_Calaca]

We can't say if they touched Acno's soul because they can do it or because the RoT let them to do it due to the physics within it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But there is nothing spiritual about the RoT. It's a dimension with time magic in it and there are no different ways reality works in there. That's not even suggested.

 

[The_Calaca]

I think removing it from the profile until we have clear input about that it's the best thing. The fact that he can touch souls but he can't touch the other guy it's contradictory and it should be counted as an anti-feat.

 

[CNBA3]

Well it was white & light so that still works for Sting, what I mean is that usually it is difficult to actually grasp as a physical object, as for Shadows, I am thinking it is more Dark Matter than just shadows, think about it, Dark Matter has gravitational interaction and required to enter "shadows" is letting their weight sink into it or increased gravity itself to do it

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Eh, being an element and being a soul are two different types of intangibility. He could just be able to hit souls but not elements.

 

[The_Calaca]

If that's the case then it should be Limited NPI. But I'm still thinking that it's likely due to the RoT materializing souls or immaterializing bodies.

But if Natsu shows himself incapable of touch a soul I'll be there to argue for the removal.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I think we should just specify that it's just souls. After all, it's not like we put Limited Non Physical interaction for everyone unless they can hit the soul, mind, nonexistent beings, and elemental intangibles with their fists.

Yeah.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

We do use Limited Non-Physical Interaction tho, that's how we're treating Haki from One Piece. Plus we actually know what Souls look like and how they behave in FT and Acnologia doesn't fit the in verse criteria for souls. I'll post the scans in a moment.



I'm actually iffy on giving them limited Non-Physical Interaction since Acnologia is never shown to be intangible, that's usually something you need to prove. Iirc Bleach souls weren't given Intang or non psychical interaction for the longest times despite being souls until recently since there's statements in the Manga stating that they are intangible. Here we have something where the soul is never shown to be intangible, phase through things and getting hit by multiple of the Dragon Slayers who've never show cased the ability to hit someone who's intangible. I really doubt that Acnologia is actually intangible since everything goes against that.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That was just because they treated Bleach incorrectly. They even had being able to see Bleach characters when you didn't have that power as a part of SBA back then.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That was just because they treated Bleach incorrectly. They even had being able to see Bleach characters when you didn't have that power as a part of SBA back then.

That's not the case, they needed to prove that the souls in Bleach are actually intangible since they behaved differently. With statements they were able to prove that they work like real souls, meanwhile there isn't anything like that here.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

If that's the case for Haki then yeah, I guess Limited makes sense. Just make it it specifies why it is limited.

 

[The_Calaca]

The fact that people who never shown the ability to interact with non-physical things suddenly started to do so without explanations nor anything justifying it it's more a point against Acnologia being Non-Physical as a soul than a point for some DS having NPI.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean, the Dragon Slayers have never fought someone that was just a soul before. What do you mean by Acno not meeting the criteria for being a soul in his own verse? If it's because he's not dead, the reason his soul is in the RoT is because absorping it split his body and soul.

 

[The_Calaca]

And they ever fought with someone that was non-physical at all. Giving them the ability to do it seems iffy.

I'm not talking about the splitting argument. That happened, but doesn't mean Acno's soul is intangible. Rin's scan shows that the souls in FT verse are a little sphere rather than a body.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That's not what I mean. We're showing what an actual soul looks like in Fairy Tail as shown in the scan above.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Or it can simply be that they can attack souls. Why are we making this distinction for FT only. A soul is intangible until stated and proven not to be. Unless it is directly stated that the soul is physical, it is indeed intangible. We can't just pick an choose which verses have intangible and tangible souls on a whim. We have characters who suddenly show the ability to attack souls out of the blue all the time. I see no issue with Non-Physical Interaction here as they blatantly hit a soul that was not stated to be tangible in the slightest. Unlike Bleach, souls in FT don't act any differently. We don't go through constant checks for every single verse in order to check if their "souls are the real deal", we assume the souls are intangible until proven otherwise. I agree at most with Limited Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[The_Calaca]

In this case, Acno's soul is for some reason different from the rest of the souls. If it has a form rather than being a floating orb then it's legit to doubt about it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Calaca You can't really show your ability to fight souls if you never fought a soul before. Not having enemies that were souls previously doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to fight souls.

@Rin

Yeah, but unlike them, Acnologia's has a shape. It could be due to the RoT causing it and not his death like those other souls.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Except in basically any fiction we see souls take human form and not just some orb floating in the air. So that is not the case in the slightest. That is simply one fictional interpretation of a soul. Not an interpretation that all of fiction must follow.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Again, my Bleach example debunks that entire argument. Acnologia is never shown to be intangible, in Bleach they had to prove that the souls are intangible due to them always getting hit by other characters. There's no difference here, souls shouldn't always be assumed to be intangible especially whenever it's clearly shown otherwise like with Acnologia. These characters have never shown to be able to interact with souls as shown in my previous scan, Acnologia's soul was clearly tangible for the DS to be able to attack him but fail to attack those with other forums of intang ( I.E Bloodman, Ash, Laxus, etc. ) and I've already shown how his soul differs from how Souls act in FT. Read my argument before jumping to conclusions. There are multiple things in favor of Acnologia's soul not being intangible than it actually being intangible. Not as souls behave the same, they act differently from fiction to fiction and from religion to religion.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Calaca
You can't really show your ability to fight souls if you never fought a soul before. Not having enemies that were souls previously doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to fight souls.

@Rin

Yeah, but unlike them, Acnologia's has a shape. It could be due to the RoT causing it and not his death like those other souls.

I'm against giving abilities without justifications. I see no enough evidence or some power up giving them the ability (which is weird due to FT's standards). And after seeing that Natsu had problems against intangibility the argument becomes more solid.

Then the RoT might be causing the same turning Acnologia into a physical being rather than a Non-Physical soul.

@Dragonmaster

I'm not sure about your point. Just because every fiction makes that move doesn't mean anything AFAIK.

But I don't care at this point. As I said before, if Natsu shows the inability to touch souls or something non-physical again I'll be back to remove it. Right now I'm out. I don't want to waste my time arguing on this.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

What is the standard for souls?

The issue seems to be "are souls in Fairy Tail intangible or tangible?" And that physics in the Ravines of Time may have changed the interaction between Acnologia's soul and the Dragon Slayers there.

In the original thread where Natsu was granted this, I was against him having it since I just took it as a special case since Acno transported all of them there to his soul, I took it as a different plane where interaction was possible since never in the story had this happened before.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Except this isn't Bleach. Just because Bleach had to do something does not mean every other piece of fiction has to. And no, I am positive we assume souls are intangible until proven otherwise unless their are tons of extra threads about this topic for every other verse out there that I have missed. And have you thought that maybe they have an ability to attack souls only? People can have a specific ability for things like that you know. I have an ability that allows me to attack souls, does jack-shit against elements though. You have debunked nothing, all you've done is brought up is Bleach and nothing else. Not every series works like Bleach and not every series goes through what Bleach goes through. And what conclusions are you talking about? I read your post. This is an abilitiy limited to Souls and nothing more. Anything else is exempt from this. For example, I disagree with him bypassing Elemental Intangibility as his ability has shown to work strictly on souls and nothing else.

Just because something suddenly happens doesn't mean that it was never possible beforehand. From my understanding, these guys never even so much as fought a pure soul before.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"And after seeing that Natsu had problems against intangibility the argument becomes more solid."

There's a massive difference between different types of intangibility. It's been shown that they can't hit elements, souls are different. Luffy wouldn't be able to hit a nonexistent being but that doesn't mean he can't hit Logia types with his Haki.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Either way, I have given my opinion here. I am not in the mood to deal with another full blown Fairy Tail thread as they are a pain in the ass, you all decide whatever.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also if I came off as rude or confrontational I apologize.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

"And after seeing that Natsu had problems against intangibility the argument becomes more solid."

There's a massive difference between different types of intangibility. It's been shown that they can't hit elements, souls are different. Luffy wouldn't be able to hit a nonexistent being but that doesn't mean he can't hit Logia types with his Haki.

This is a Golden Mean Fallacy and you know it. There's a distinction between between Haki being able to hit those with Elemental Intang since that's explained in verse unlike with this case here.


@DragonMaster.


You fail to see my point. The way Souls in Bleach and Fairy Tail work similarly in the fact that they're typically portrayed as tangible, Bleach actually has statements and scans to give them Intangbility. Servants in the Fate Series aren't given Intangbility due to being souls, they're given it because of statements. And yes I've thought of that but again it makes zero sense for them to be able to suddenly attack and hit the soul whenever they've never show cased the ability to do so aside from this random moment, again he isn't shown to be intangible. You'd have to prove that he's intangible which you can't. The only form of proof that you have is him being called a soul whenever he isn't shown to be intangible or behave like an actual soul would. Again , I'm almost positive that we don't assume that ALL souls in fiction are intangible especially whenever it's fiction which doesn't need to follow our real world criteria for Souls. Some Souls in Manga and Fiction aren't shown to be intangible.