Should Genshin Impact's Hilichurl Tier really be Low 7-B?

[Naito-desu]

Well at the very least, everyone should be Large Building, we can iron out the higher tier fighters in the future

 

[Second22]

Would it be better to use this reference? Anyway, the diameter of the hollow inside bamboo varies depending on the size or age of the bamboo, but we can estimate that it is about 10% of the diameter. So...

4cm diameter bamboo: π(2^2 - (2*0.9)^2) = 2.38761041673 cm2
13cm diameter bamboo: π(6.5^2 - (6.5*0.9)^2) = 25.2191350267 cm2
18cm diameter bamboo: π(9^2 - (9*0.9)^2) = 48.3491109387 cm2

Small bamboo (4cm diameter): 58.7 mPa*2.38761041673 cm2*4.74 cm = 664.32394713 joules
Middle bamboo (13cm diameter): 58.7 mPa*25.2191350267 cm2*4.74 cm = 7016.92169156 joules
Large bamboo (18cm diameter): 58.7 mPa*48.3491109387 cm2*4.74 cm = 13452.5599294 joules

Small bamboo: 664.32394713*9673869.78893 = 6426583362.2 joules or 1.53599029 tons of TNT (Building level)
Middle bamboo: 7016.92169156*9673869.78893 = 67880786763.3 joules or 16.2238974 tons of TNT (City Block level)
Large bamboo: 13452.5599294*9673869.78893 = 130138313085 joules or 31.1038033 tons of TNT (City Block level)

 

[Naito-desu]

Yeah that sounds more well suited for it, I was struggling to find references so I made a loose assumption

 

[Second22]

I have submitted the calculation assessment to DMUA and the Mid-end has been accepted.

 

[Second22]

Now cool, We got 8-B for Guhua.

 

[Naito-desu]

We can leave the debate for scaling some other time, I think it's worth just downgrading all 7-Bs to 8-B for the time being, and all the low 7-Bs to High 8-C

 

[Second22]

I don't think we need to hurry. Is there any issue that is pending right now?

• How are we going to handle the speed of everyone? Will they be able to reduce it to supersonic level?
• Is there anyone who scales with Lisa's 7-C level? For example, could it be Diluc?
• Lisa still have MHS+ attack speed, right?
• et cetera

We should create another thread for all profile changes. And who will change to what value and how?

 

[Naito-desu]

• How are we going to handle the speed of everyone? Will they be able to reduce it to supersonic level?
• Is there anyone who scales with Lisa's 7-C level? For example, could it be Diluc?
• Lisa still have MHS+ attack speed, right?
• et cetera

1. Well, we do know that Eula and Jean are relatively on par, so Jean would logically scale. Traveler would scale to Eula through fighting Susbedo. Traveler can be applied to basically all of the other character he's fought like in Sumeru.

Lisa is pretty unique among characters, isn't she? I mean I don't doubt that other characters are comparable to her but Lisa has gone through some pretty unique circumstances like the Academia and whatnot. I'm not sure if Lisa has fought anyone either to solidly scale to any of the Knights of Favonius.

Honestly, don't see why not given she shoots out electricity and not lightning balls or Electro constructs. Also I agree with a profile changes thread so we can discuss more characters in detail.

 

[Naito-desu]

I also took the liberty of calculating the Ruin Serpent, I also want to calc its whirlpool attack. This would likely scale to Inazuma traveler depending on when the Chasm exploration takes place

 

[Shey]

1. Well, we do know that Eula and Jean are relatively on par, so Jean would logically scale. Traveler would scale to Eula through fighting Susbedo. Traveler can be applied to basically all of the other character he's fought like in Sumeru.

Does that really work though?

Eula shattered Susbedo's blade in One hit while Traveler was getting pressed and Susbedo didn't seem to have much difficulty against him.

I also took the liberty of calculating the Ruin Serpent, I also want to calc its whirlpool attack. This would likely scale to Inazuma traveler depending on when the Chasm exploration takes place

Definitely Inazuma Traveler, it's well before Sumeru and he's well acquainted with Itto by then

 

[Naito-desu]

Definitely Inazuma Traveler, it's well before Sumeru and he's well acquainted with Itto by then

I was actually wondering if we should arrange quests either by update addition or by Archon Quest requirement. Because technically the mission where you canonically fight the worm doesn't require you to go to Inazuma, and plenty other event quests seem to be in a vacuum from the main storyline.

 

[Naito-desu]

Does that really work though?

Eula shattered Susbedo's blade in One hit while Traveler was getting pressed and Susbedo didn't seem to have much difficulty against him.

This was in reference to speed, not AP. Plus, I think much of what you're saying is conjecture as opposed to any solid facts that the fight shows.

 

[Shey]

I was actually wondering if we should arrange quests either by update addition or by Archon Quest requirement.

Same, but the update additions don't seem to back track, as far is I've noticed Atleast so I think it's alright using them both

Because technically the mission where you canonically fight the worm doesn't require you to go to Inazuma,

Because it doesn't relate to anyone from Inazuma and it happens in a World Quest tied to the Chasm, unlike the Event Quest that has you meeting Itto

and plenty other event quests seem to be in a vacuum from the main storyline.

True

This was in reference to speed, not AP. Plus, I think much of what you're saying is conjecture as opposed to any solid facts that the fight shows.

Eula does shatter his blade.
Albedo presses Traveler and gets saved by Eula.
Albedo also parries his two handed strikes with one arm shuffling backwards.

 

[Naito-desu]

I think also that we should strictly define what we mean by Mondstadt/Liyue/Inazuma Traveler. The division made sense when the transition from Mondstadt to Liyue was practically seamless. But with Inazuma, the experience now varies.

If I was a player who played since launch for example, it'd be Mondstadt > Liyue > Transition/Interlude > Inazuma > Jade Chamber > Chasm > Sumeru

But if you started playing only recently, you actually have the option to do Jade Chamber and the Chasm before going to Inazuma. Making this distinction is important in the future because it lets us divide feats properly for quests with important feats that could go either way for which traveler key they belong to.

 

[Avengershows]

Shouldn't we calc the Itto punches a rock thingy?

 

[Shey]

Shouldn't we calc the Itto punches a rock thingy?

It has been done already earlier this thread, it got 8-C

 

[Mickey1940]

I mean they'd still be High 8-C just vastly upscaled from Susbedo's ice given a healthy amount of characters scale to it, including Albedo, Post-Liyue Traveler, and Eula for example.

I'll work on the Guhua thing as well as find some other feats that can work. But hopefully everyone is in agreement with no.1?

P.S. What's stopping us from using stuff like fireball calcs for certain characters? As far as I am aware, DnD uses calcs like these and it might be useful for some particular characters

so basically "At least High 8C, possibly far higher"?

 

[Mickey1940]

≥ is not the same thing as =

Doesn't Razor's story quest occur before the Liyue plotline?
If so that's Mondstadt Traveler not Liyue

Naito has already addressed the Guhua scaling so no need for me to speak on that.

They still scale relative to each other

And I'm pretty sure it happens either during or after

 

[Naito-desu]

Well with the Ruin Serpent calc in play now, we can technically get 8-B again for higher tiers

 

[Mickey1940]

I think also that we should strictly define what we mean by Mondstadt/Liyue/Inazuma Traveler. The division made sense when the transition from Mondstadt to Liyue was practically seamless. But with Inazuma, the experience now varies.

If I was a player who played since launch for example, it'd be Mondstadt > Liyue > Transition/Interlude > Inazuma > Jade Chamber > Chasm > Sumeru

But if you started playing only recently, you actually have the option to do Jade Chamber and the Chasm before going to Inazuma. Making this distinction is important in the future because it lets us divide feats properly for quests with important feats that could go either way for which traveler key they belong to.

Traveler doesn't gain any significant, clear buffs besides resonating with new elements

Any other power-ups can't exactly be proven due to how few feats Genshin actually gives their characters

imo leaving it as Anemo / + Geo / + Electro / + Dendro should be fine, unless there's a feat I'm missing

 

[Naito-desu]

That could work if we just divided it by the max amount of things the Traveler can achieve in a nation before needing to move on.

My question for the decision was really more for ambiguous quests like the Chasm Exploration World quest (not the Archon Quest), where Aether fights the Ruin Serpent, giving him a possible 8-B rating which is kind of trapped between his Inazuma key and Liyue Key.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Why don't we scale Inazuma Traveler to Raiden again?

 

[ZENZUYA]

Why don't we scale Inazuma Traveler to Raiden again?

It's been discussed on discord and I've posted the thread, but my posts are always quiet and not busy

 

[ZENZUYA]

Inazuma Traveler is 6-C lol for standing hus ground against Makoto possessed Ei.

I already claimed this before this thread was made, but they claim that the shogun doesn't use 6C scale attack power on traveler or kazuha ( Low ball issue ) and this is happen not only on discord

and this is the argument they say

• Traveler does that in dimension only

• Raiden ei only succumbs in battle if only what the traveler is fighting is the shogun (puppet) the traveler might already be dead

• Raiden doesn't issue 6C scale attack power

• Raiden held back

And yeah this is what they say

Do you see? sorry if my grammar bad

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Can I get a summary of the things to evaluate?

 

[Naito-desu]

We've basically agreed to the main premise of this thread, which is to downgrade everyone rated Low 7-B and 7-B across the board. Initially, it was just going to be High 8-C but I have since brought up another calculation that is 8-B that would scale to the 7-B characters and is waiting for approval.

What we so far disagree on or haven't resolved is the specifics regarding some character-unique feats like Lisa's 7-C feat as well as attack speeds of electro characters, specifically electro catalysts.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I already claimed this before this thread was made, but they claim that the shogun doesn't use 6C scale attack power on traveler or kazuha ( Low ball issue ) and this is happen not only on discord

and this is the argument they say

• Traveler does that in dimension only

• Raiden ei only succumbs in battle if only what the traveler is fighting is the shogun (puppet) the traveler might already be dead

• Raiden doesn't issue 6C scale attack power

• Raiden held back

And yeah this is what they say

Do you see? sorry if my grammar bad

Even if that the case, we can still downscale him yo Raiden. And doesn't we equalize normal attack to AP? Even if they're holding back?

 

[ZENZUYA]

Even if that the case, we can still downscale him yo Raiden. And doesn't we equalize normal attack to AP? Even if they're holding back?

Iam already say this
I won the debate but to be honest they were still dissaagreed even though they had lost during the debate

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Iam already say this
I won the debate but to be honest they were still dissaagreed even though they had lost during the debate

I will support you on this matter.

 

[Naito-desu]

My problem with scaling to Raiden is that we got slapped so hard in that fight with so little damage to Raiden in-story that it feels wrong to do it. Without the gameplay fight that was purely for engagement, we'd probably get bitchslapped even harder than that one cutscene suggests. Even with the hundreds of vision power-up we didn't even hurt Raiden, she just decided to give up. I'm going a hard no on 6-C Traveler until more evidence is shown, perhaps in this next Nahida story quest.

 

[Jackpact]

My stance on Traveler scaling to Raiden is that it would fuckup the scaling way too much and doesn't make any sense when we clearly didn't really do anything to Raiden damage wise.

Also as for the quests and events order, i would say go with release order since that make the most sense and doesn't contradict anything so far, since if we really go by ingame requirement that we could explore chasm before Inazuma, we could also explore the entirety of Sumeru before Inazuma or even Liyue archon quest and even finish some questline in it, so yeah, release order make more sense.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

My problem with scaling to Raiden is that we got slapped so hard in that fight with so little damage to Raiden in-story that it feels wrong to do it. Without the gameplay fight that was purely for engagement, we'd probably get bitchslapped even harder than that one cutscene suggests. Even with the hundreds of vision power-up we didn't even hurt Raiden, she just decided to give up. I'm going a hard no on 6-C Traveler until more evidence is shown, perhaps in this next Nahida story quest.

My stance on Traveler scaling to Raiden is that it would fuckup the scaling way too much and doesn't make any sense when we clearly didn't really do anything to Raiden damage wise.

This is downscaling bruh, we even do this many times in another verse. Cough Black Clover cough

He should be downscaled to Raiden because well, he fought her even if not actually quite defeats her.

 

[Naito-desu]

I don't really think other people doing the same thing is why we should do it, not that I agree with the way Black Clover does things. I'm open to a possibly 6-C, but we will see after this update.

 

[Null]

Agree

 

[Shey]

Traveler doesn't gain any significant, clear buffs besides resonating with new elements

You sure?

Any other power-ups can't exactly be proven due to how few feats Genshin actually gives their characters

Cause Anemo Traveler gets overpowered and held down by 2 Fatui Agents at the end of the Mond Quest.
And Traveler who was likely weaker than Venti then who struggled to resist Signora's restraint although people say he was holding back so ignore this maybe
Geo Traveler can stalemate Childe the 11th Harbinger
And Electro Traveler can beat Signora the 8th Harbinger solo fair and square
I can't really say anything about the Shouki no Kami fight tho, a lot of bullshitery occured there

 

[Mickey1940]

You sure?

Cause Anemo Traveler gets overpowered and held down by 2 Fatui Agents at the end of the Mond Quest.
And Traveler who was likely weaker than Venti then who struggled to resist Signora's restraint although people say he was holding back so ignore this maybe
Geo Traveler can stalemate Childe the 11th Harbinger
And Electro Traveler can beat Signora the 8th Harbinger solo fair and square
I can't really say anything about the Shouki no Kami fight tho, a lot of bullshitery occured there

I said

BESIDES

resonating with new elements

 

[Mickey1940]

wait

doesn't Kujou Sara summon and use cloud-to-ground lightning?

Sara's not really considered a unga bunga exceptional Vision user like Lisa is stated to be, considering her only feat is getting rekt by Singora and beating up Itto who's equally featless besides punching a boulder

would that contribute anything?

 

[Mickey1940]

I also want to mention that Bennett and Amber should scale to whatever feat we scale the Knights of Favonious to, since they are presumably able to clash and harm Susbedo directly, who could pressure Eula and clash swords with Inazuma Traveler

 

[Naito-desu]

I still have a problem with the way Genshin simultaneously wants the Traveler to be this god-fighting character while still pretending that anything that comes our way in smaller events is still somehow a threat.

Anyway, I think we're getting off-track. I want this to reach a conclusion given the issue of this thread started with questioning Genshin characters being at low 7-B and 7-B, which I still think is pretty valid, and should be changed regardless of the intricacies of the new one. If anyone is taking issue with the new ratings post-change, then they can make a new thread to dispute it.

 

[Mickey1940]

I still have a problem with the way Genshin simultaneously wants the Traveler to be this god-fighting character while still pretending that anything that comes our way in smaller events is still somehow a threat.

Anyway, I think we're getting off-track. I want this to reach a conclusion given the issue of this thread started with questioning Genshin characters being at low 7-B and 7-B, which I still think is pretty valid, and should be changed regardless of the intricacies of the new one. If anyone is taking issue with the new ratings post-change, then they can make a new thread to dispute it.

Does Sara's lightning scale to anyone?

cuz i feel like someone should calc that somehow