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SHINZA IS BACK!!!!!

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Hasty12345 said:
So in essence, you have characters who view type 1 concepts as fiction? Is that a accurate/semi-accurate kind of way of looking at it?
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viewing type 1 concept as fiction is nothing here as far as I know, what they view as fiction is the mandala.
 
PrinceofPein said:
You do not really have to reply them

viewing type 1 concept as fiction is nothing here as far as I know, what they view as fiction is the mandala.
Click to expand...
I’m just trying to understand, if the mandala is an object such that concepts are nothing but colours, and these concepts are essentially type 1 concepts, then what I said isn’t a Oi far off?

I’m sorry, this is just a complicated verse, it might not be possible to reduce is as much as I’m trying to
 
Hasty12345 said:
I’m just trying to understand, if the mandala is an object such that concepts are nothing but colours, and these concepts are essentially type 1 concepts, then what I said isn’t a Oi far off?

I’m sorry, this is just a complicated verse, it might not be possible to reduce is as much as I’m trying to
Click to expand...
The basis is more of how no matter how "large" the concept is or whatever or the extent of it, it's still part of the picture the gods create, and therefore below them. Honestly, easiest thing to think of is that anything that isn't taikyoku in creation is more than likely less than taikyoku. The 1A stuff is due to stuff of dimensions, space, and time existing as part of these concepts
 
Hasty12345 said:
I’m just trying to understand, if the mandala is an object such that concepts are nothing but colours, and these concepts are essentially type 1 concepts, then what I said isn’t a Oi far off?

I’m sorry, this is just a complicated verse, it might not be possible to reduce is as much as I’m trying to
Click to expand...
to build more on what Tarang said, okay mandalas, think of it as a board, all the colors on it are simply laws that are not taikyoku, in Yakou words, mere physics.
but taikyoku is something deeper, now read this part again
Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku. In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics. What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition. It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation would change into a wattery bottom............ My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
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The concepts on the mandalas unless they become taikyoku they will still only be color on the mandala something the gods do not participate in
 
Tarang123 said:
The basis is more of how no matter how "large" the concept is or whatever or the extent of it, it's still part of the picture the gods create, and therefore below them. Honestly, easiest thing to think of is that anything that isn't taikyoku in creation is more than likely less than taikyoku. The 1A stuff is due to stuff of dimensions, space, and time existing as part of these concepts
Click to expand...
I’m certainly not opposed to the rating given these explanations, as long as you can prove at some point below the mandala there’s a hierarchy of spatial dimensions, I agree with possibly 1-A if not a flat 1-A.
 
LuciferX said:
Do that concepts include "concept of dimensions" ?
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If you look at the Avesta quote (I'll put it below anyway), it mentions directions like "front and back". Of course, it's worded like this because everything in Avesta is dualistic in nature, but it's basically referring to directions, along with mentions of space and time.

Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.
Click to expand...
 
Tarang123 said:
If you look at the Avesta quote (I'll put it below anyway), it mentions directions like "front and back". Of course, it's worded like this because everything in Avesta is dualistic in nature, but it's basically referring to directions, along with mentions of space and time.
Click to expand...
You meant obverse and reverse? It's not referring to higher dimensions. Where said about "directions"?
 
Tarang123 said:
It's referring to directions. That's what "front and back" refer to. This was just one example, but I didn't want to have to bring in other pieces of evidence
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No. higher dimensions don't evolve with any dualistic concept.
 
Tarang123 said:
If you look at the Avesta quote (I'll put it below anyway), it mentions directions like "front and back". Of course, it's worded like this because everything in Avesta is dualistic in nature, but it's basically referring to directions, along with mentions of space and time.
Click to expand...
IMG-20230119-WA0068.jpg

Should be either this one or the one in the final chapter
 
BTW I opened again the 4th volume and here the statement which confirms the one made in chapter 8 when Mithra talked with Zurvan(also it is stated that she is above any previous opponent of mags on top of that kek)
image.png
 
Tarang123 said:
If I may comment on this, there are other things relating to 1A like how every possible and conceivable concept is under the throne god's law.



Dimensions being implied to exist, as shown with "obverse and reverse". We also have other statements that any concept, no matter how simple or complex it is is under their law (there's another statement as well that says the exact same thing). And gods are completely transcendent and outside of this, with statements of being outside all concepts, and with all the world's concepts being part of the picture they create and are above, as shown here:







This is just something to take into account.
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Got some time on the train so I will reply to this one from the phone. (so excuse any lack of elegance)

If you want a counter example to this being relevant look no further than Noah from Owari no Chronicle. She controls all concepts and can exist outside of them and is barely Tier 2.

Going from all concepts to 1-A is just a NLF. One could just as easily argue it should be Tier 0 due to large cardinal concepts being included.

Neither really fulfills our standards of evidence. There must be some statement of infinite hierarchies so that we can say with reasonable certainty that those are included in "all concepts". Then we could argue like that.

(have not read through all other replies yet so excuse me if something I mentioned was already adressed)
 
LuciferX said:
Coordinates don't necessarily mean spatial dimensions. coordinates could be used to describe locations. same scan says "concept of distance" mean it's about some location.
Click to expand...
actually coordinates means spatial dimensions, coordinates are used to describe the position of a point in space. The number of coordinates required to describe the position of a point depends on the dimensionality of the space.
For example, in two-dimensional space (also called the plane), two coordinates are needed to specify the position of a point, usually denoted as (x, y). In three-dimensional space, three coordinates are needed, usually denoted as (x, y, z), that describe the position of a point relative to an origin. The x-coordinate represents the horizontal distance, the y-coordinate represents the vertical distance, and the z-coordinate represents the distance along the third axis (usually depth). For example, the point (2, 3, 4) in three-dimensional space is located 2 units to the right of the origin, 3 units above it, and 4 units in front of it.
In higher-dimensional spaces, additional coordinates are needed to describe the position of a point. For example, in four-dimensional space, coordinates consist of four values, usually denoted as (x, y, z, t), where t represents time. In this case, the coordinates specify not only the position of a point in space but also its position at a specific moment in time.
And in 5D, five coordinates are needed, in 9D, you will have (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), so yes it's concepts itself is also the concept of spatial dimensions.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Got some time on the train so I will reply to this one from the phone. (so excuse any lack of elegance)

If you want a counter example to this being relevant look no further than Noah from Owari no Chronicle. She controls all concepts and can exist outside of them and is barely Tier 2.

Going from all concepts to 1-A is just a NLF. One could just as easily argue it should be Tier 0 due to large cardinal concepts being included.

Neither really fulfills our standards of evidence. There must be some statement of infinite hierarchies so that we can say with reasonable certainty that those are included in "all concepts". Then we could argue like that.

(have not read through all other replies yet so excuse me if something I mentioned was already adressed)
Click to expand...
I agree with you, but I was using that and then showing how things like dimensions (coordinates, directions, whatever) exist in there as well. I agree that it would be an NLF on its own, if additional context wasn't given. If the context I've given isn't suitable for 1A then that's alright I suppose.
 
LuciferX said:
Coordinates don't necessarily mean spatial dimensions. coordinates could be used to describe locations. same scan says "concept of distance" mean it's about some location.
Click to expand...
The number of coordinates something has refers to its dimensionality. 3D has 3 spatial coordinates
 
RaveeCPN said:
here

Seriously, on what basis exactly do you say it looks iffy?
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This Youtube video also looks iffy, you posted that video 3 years ago on YT with edited Official translations from Light the publishinig company itself all for this moment.

Seriously tho, it is normal for people to be jumpy and nitpicky at shinza, so I am sure he will have no reply on why the scan looks iffy
 
PrinceofPein said:
Ladies, Gentlemen and people that their username have the number "12"
Click to expand...
And I took that personally
LuciferX said:
Coordinates don't necessarily mean spatial dimensions. coordinates could be used to describe locations. same scan says "concept of distance" mean it's about some location.
Click to expand...
Coordinate's are in reference to a location within a spatial axis. With that said, the number of coordinate's determine's the number of dimensions. For example, if my coordinate's are 032:473:962, that means I am in that position within a 3D space. If we add on a 4th coordinate, like 758, then that means that is the position I am in within a 4D space. And if, say, there are 9 coordinates, that is where I am within a 9D space.
 
PrinceofPein said:
No you are right nothing like that was mentioned in the blog, but the reasons for 1-A are these
1. Let me start with the PL one, which is Paradise Lost, like you know already, Paradise Lost consists of Higher Dimensions and some special people who have the ability to lose their sin/lose their shell and ascend to higher dimensions, now they can do this to any number of steps, but no matter how much they ascend or lose their sin, they will not reach the throne. To simply things there is a verse mechanics that allows special people to ascend higher dimensions, but no matter how much they ascend they will not reach the throne, Satanael then thought maybe a being with no sin can reach it, well to say the least, they still could not reach it. Also these dimensions are not spatial Dimensions but spiritual dimensions, so there can be no argument of the throne being referred to as having spatial properties.
They are steps called leylines that allows you to move ascend these higher dimensions, but when it comes to keter(the throne) it is a veil(wall).
Admittedly PL is the first work of shinza so it is wonky and had a few things retconned, the reason why I explained what was said above was to show that the throne has no anti-feat of it being one of the regular dimensions even in PL.
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I mean... alright. But if this is just to demonstrate that it is no anti-feat then it of course doesn't support the premise in itself.

PrinceofPein said:
2. The gods view creation as a mandala (TL: For me, all things are this mandala. The landscape is distant. Beautiful, but remote.) , also laws, concepts and phenomenons are colors to the gods, or rather they view it on the mandala as colors.
A good narration will be this from Avesta

Every concept, law and phenomenon, is a colour on a painting(mandala) that the gods are viewing
Click to expand...
That's a good feat regarding abstractness, but doesn't really mean anything regarding power. Well, maybe viewing it as a painting is enough for R>F, but even reality fiction that views all concepts and similar as fiction is still just one infinity step.

PrinceofPein said:
3. The gods themselves do not participate in this laws, concepts or phenomenon, and these laws compared to taikyoku are called mere physics/assorted laws.

Also like Tarang already said above, any concept, simple or complex were also said to be governed by these common laws that are not taikyoku.
Click to expand...
I could make a comparision to Kawakami's power of Will, which is also more fundamental than concepts and stuff, but not in any tiering relevant way. So, while Taikyuko has an impressive standing in terms of how abstract and fundamental it is, I don't consider it being above or the gods being outside of regular concepts to be something that supports infinite layers of infinity higher at all.
PrinceofPein said:
4. Aside from the fact that they do not participate in it, they are the source/origin of all these concepts, laws and phenomenon. So there are three things to note, They are the source of all things in creation, they have control of all things in creation and they also do not participate in all things in creation.
And finally all things in creation are colors on the mandala that they are viewing
Click to expand...
Yeah, same thing as 3. basically. That's just good manipulation. (I could again compare to Noah, although Noah admittedly doesn't have the R>F aspect over the regular universe... although R>F arguably exists within the concepts she controls, just in the below the regular universe direction...)
While the gods have a R>F transcendence over reality with feats of controlling it at an incredibly fundamental level, laws concept and everything, this just isn't something they need to be infinite levels of infinity stronger than it to have. Infinitely stronger seems enough.
PrinceofPein said:
5. Now to the one that will probably be the longest point, the Singularity and how it was described, I will just quote tarang at first before building more on it

To summarise to reach the singularity, you need to tear open the paper(creation) and see what is behind the paper.
  • So to say the singularity is the blank canvas upon which the Gods can paint whatever they want, it is the birth place of new worlds and where the Gods add whatever they want.
  • And the Singularity was described as a place lacking all concepts, including space and time. i.e. an absolute void
  • Also Yakou a walking singularity was said to not have experience the concept of space, (TL:In the first place, I have never been aware of the concept of space itself. It is an impossible story when you think about it.)
  • It was also said that it cannot "even be called a place"

And yes I used DeepL for that, he lost all sense of direction inside the singularity and said it cannot be called a place.
Also this from Ikabey "Spaces that escapes the laws of the world destroyed the concepts of distance and coordinates" in relation to reinhard's place, a place half-step above beriah and half-step below aztiluth(that which is needed to reach the singularity)
To explain more on the reinhard point, with beriah you are already above all the worlds laws,, you can overwrite the laws eitehr way, Now reinhard is half step above that(beriah).
Edit: Needless to say, when they say concepts, it will also include concepts of space and dimensions like I have shown.
Click to expand...
That seems like a fairly normal description of R>F stuff. ToAru in fact just describes things relating to its regular reality warping quite similar, which isn't even R>F. (and the sigularity sounds like the Hidden World...) Well, I guess that analogy isn't helpful if you don't know that verse.
Anyway, my point is, all you're really showing here is that they can locally erase the concept of space in the world they see as a painting. Or I guess locally erase all concepts. That's just no reason for a tiering upgrade. That's just good concept erasure.

(Let me add that, from what is said in the first quote, the singularity seems to be actually on the paper not a tear in it? Doesn't really matter for the debate, though.)
PrinceofPein said:
6. Now I can go on and on about the throne, but that will be redundant, all that is needed to be known is that the singularity is the only way to reach the throne, you need to drill into the singularity to try and reach the throne, even with taikyoku, if you are not as powerful as the god on the throne, you will keep falling inside the singularity forever and never reach the throne


We also have Mercurius quote when he stopped Reinhard and Ren from fighting inside the singularity. To which he means, no matter what they do, they will never reach the throne and will just keep on going from one layer of the singularity to another endlessly. And how the layers of the singularity works are in the blog, the singularity section but they are not relevant right now.
So to say, The Throne >> Singularity >> Creation and what makes it up (its concepts)

Now this point on its own may not mean much, but when you put them together I think it is enough for 1-A.
Click to expand...
That singularity stuff is interesting, but ultimately seems to have to do with those of lesser Taikyoku being denied entrance, rather than something relating to infinite layers of infinity, I thihk?


If so, my total takeaway from this is that you have demonstrated the existence of a power more abstract than concept, really good concept manipulation + erasure and a R>F difference-like relationship, but I don't think any of this separately or all together really is a subject that would justify infinite levels of infinity in power jump.
 
DontTalkDT said:
If so, my total takeaway from this is that you have demonstrated the existence of a power more abstract than concept, really good concept manipulation + erasure and a R>F difference-like relationship, but I don't think any of this separately or all together really is a subject that would justify infinite levels of infinity in power jump.
Click to expand...
What if evidence was shown for concepts of directions/coordinates, space, and time also being parts of this world that they completely transcend?
 
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