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SHINZA IS BACK!!!!!

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PrinceofPein said:
That is not how it works, Ultima misrepresented the argument in the blog although not intentionally anyone not knowledgeable on the series will make the same conclusion, and then I replied to his argument, now he has to come and reply to the reply to him, that is how arguments work.
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I mean, his reasons for disagreeing weren't because of misrepresentation, but because he believed that we were poorly prepared and rushed things.
 
Tarang123 said:
I mean, his reasons for disagreeing weren't because of misrepresentation, but because he believed that we were poorly prepared and rushed things.
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What we really argued about was the tier and then he added this little clause; his reasons for disagreeing are these
f this was better organized I'd be fine with it, but it seems to be a bunch of stuff that was pretty shoddily put together in a short period of time
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Yes it was put together in a short period of time, since what we have ready are the character pages and they will be brought back in their previous tier, the blog was DT idea in this thread also he requested we add the tier I think they qualify for to it and I cannot in good faith say 1-B as that argument is wrong.
So was the blog hastily made? Yes
The thread? NO
We have pages of the characters ready
If he will like to see examples of the character pages we have ready, I will gladly show him.
And also people should really stop saying the thread was hastily made based on a blog, like read the damn first page.
and isn't even consistent with itself at several points
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and this one I already addressed since he misunderstood some stuffs
(Ontop of the OP apparently not even having proper knowledge of the source material,
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All I can say to this is "I have knowledge of the source material more than most on this wiki"
something that's seemingly dismissed as being just "nitpicking" every time something that points towards it is brought up).
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Yes translations error, of "cloud", and someone saying I did not translate a sentence, is actually nitpicking as none of those affects the arguments in the blog
 
Antvasima said:
So should we close this thread? Maybe a new one can be initiated later after more thorough preparations have been made.
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The pages are ready all of them, the plan was that we would bring it back with the former ratings, but we were asked to prepare a blog on this thread, so the blog was initally rushed, but I think I have added the whole thing needed, but it is still not wiki page material, although that can be fixed down the line.
Since it was DT idea, I think we should wait for him to comment. I am fine either way
 
Antvasima said:
So should we close this thread? Maybe a new one can be initiated later after more thorough preparations have been made.
Click to expand...
PrinceofPein said:
The pages are ready all of them, the plan was that we would bring it back with the former ratings, but we were asked to prepare a blog on this thread, so the blog was initally rushed, but I think I have added the whole thing needed, but it is still not wiki page material, although that can be fixed down the line.
Since it was DT idea, I think we should wait for him to comment. I am fine either way
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@DontTalkDT
 
Well, my personal suggestion for how to do it was to debate the stats, see if an agreement can be reached and then recreate the profile in updated form, rather then first restore the outdated stuff and then have a CRT.
We can also do it differently, though. I don't mind.

Most of the suggested stats seem fine.

After reading the blog I can say that I personally consider the evidence for 1-B insufficient, though. For a being 1 dimensionality higher, all lower dimensions equally look to be 0 size. So I don't think you have to be infinite layers of infinity higher to match the statements that are given. I think 13D would suffice.
That would of course be different if we had a statement along the lines of "even if there were infinite dimensions...", "independent of the number of dimensions...", "unlimited dimensions could be added..." or anything like that, but I think nothing like that was mentioned in the blog?
 
DontTalkDT said:
After reading the blog I can say that I personally consider the evidence for 1-B insufficient, though. For a being 1 dimensionality higher, all lower dimensions equally look to be 0 size. So I don't think you have to be infinite layers of infinity higher to match the statements that are given. I think 13D would suffice.
That would of course be different if we had a statement along the lines of "even if there were infinite dimensions...", "independent of the number of dimensions...", "unlimited dimensions could be added..." or anything like that, but I think nothing like that was mentioned in the blog?
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If I may comment on this, there are other things relating to 1A like how every possible and conceivable concept is under the throne god's law.

“Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.”
Click to expand...

Dimensions being implied to exist, as shown with "obverse and reverse". We also have other statements that any concept, no matter how simple or complex it is is under their law (there's another statement as well that says the exact same thing). And gods are completely transcendent and outside of this, with statements of being outside all concepts, and with all the world's concepts being part of the picture they create and are above, as shown here:

シャンバラの方陣が消失する。 産道は弾け飛び、ついに窮屈な檻から放たれた死人の世界が、爆発的に広がりだす。 それを阻止せんと、停止の世界もさらに強まり── 高まる覇道と覇道の閲ぎ合いは、ここに臨界を超えた。 The magical formation of Shambhala disappears. The birth canal bursts open, and the World of The Dead, at last free from its cramped cage, rapidly expands. In an attempt to stop it, the World of Standstill (停止) grows even stronger... The growing conflict between the two Hadou (覇道) has now reached a critical point (臨界).
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そう、臨界を超えたらどうなるか。 これを一枚の紙に例えてみよう。 そこには現在、 “既知”という絵が描かれている。 その一角、シャンバラという地域限定で、停止”という色と“死人”という色が領土を争いながら重ね塗りを続けているのだ。 この二色には、性質上の違いがある。 “停止”は色鉛筆で、“死人”は絵の具。しかも“チューブ”から直塗りしている絵の具だと思えばいい。 その産道 (チューブ) が、いま弾けた。 色鉛筆の塗り速度に対抗するため、絵の具は産道 (チューブ) が邪魔だったのである。 So, what happens when that critical point is exceeded? Let's compare this to a sheet of paper (紙). Currently on it is a picture (絵) that depicts "Foreknowledge". In one corner, in the region of Shambhala, the colors of "Standstill" and "The Dead" fight for territory and are painting over one another. The nature of these two colors also differs. The "Standstill" is a colored pencil, and "The Dead" was that of paint. Moreover, you can think of them as paint/color (絵の具) being applied directly from the "tube". That birth canal (tube) had burst open. In order to compete with the coating speed of the colored pencils, the tube's paint was in the way.
Click to expand...
結果、何がどうなるか。 強い筆圧や度を超えた重ね塗りは、絵を完成させる前に紙そのものへ穴を開ける。 そう、穴が開くのだ。臨界を突破するとはそういうこと。 それはなんと定義するべきだろう。 紙の上にありながら、絵ではないし色でもない。 すなわち、世界の特異点。 What was the result of this? The fierce brush strokes and excessive layers of coating (重ね塗) opened a hole (穴) before the very painting itself can be completed. Yes, a hole was open. That is what it means to exceed that critical point. How should it be defined? It is on paper, but it was neither a picture nor a color. That is to say, it was a Singularity (特異点) of the World.
Click to expand...
穴の大きさは不明。 シャンバラ全体を飲み込んだか、それともその外まで弾けたか、あるいは針の先ほどか。 不明だが、ともかく特異点は生じたのだ。 そしてそこに、この事態を引き起こした当事者全員が落ちていく。 では、紙の下にあるのは何か? The size of the hole is unknown. Was it large enough to swallow the entirety of Shambhala, or could it burst open to the rest, or was it just the tip of a needle? It was unknown but whatever it may be, a Singularity was created. And that is where all of the parties involved in bringing this about had fallen to.
Click to expand...
「ようこそ──」 穴の向こうにあるのは此処。 今や完全な白紙状態。何色も存在せず、何色にもなれる此処こそが、最終的な決着の場として相応しい。 「新世界へ。今、我々が総ての中心にある」 では、最後の恐怖劇 (グランギニョル) を始めようか。 "I welcome you..." What lay beyond the hole is here. It is now a completely blank slate. There existed no colors, yet can be of any color. An appropriate place for the final end. "This is the New World. Now, we stand at the center of it all." So, let the end of the Horror Play (Grand Guignol) commence.
Click to expand...

This is just something to take into account.
 
I’m not sure why we’d bring back the old profiles with old ratings when half the reason the verse was nuked was due to the unreliability of the translations, for all intents and purposes were knowingly publishing misleading profiles in that case.
 
Tarang123 said:
The idea being that we could bring them back to how they were before, and then make changes in a separate thread
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Why wouldn’t we make the changes in sandboxes and get those profiles accepted? Why waste time with constantly spamming threads over and over again?
 
Tarang123 said:
Making another thread to discuss tier changes is not "spamming threads over and over again"
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It’s been hard enough to get this thread evaluated, and you want to keep calling staff to evaluate at least 2 different threads for something that can be handled in a single thread very easily.

this new trend of spamming threads on this wiki is seriously starting to become annoying.
 
Hasty12345 said:
It’s been hard enough to get this thread evaluated, and you want to keep calling staff to evaluate at least 2 different threads for something that can be handled in a single thread very easily.

this new trend of spamming threads on this wiki is seriously starting to become annoying.
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Yeah, because we're arguing more about the actual tier of the verse rather than whether it should be let on the wiki.
 
I honestly dont see the point of this approach either. Shinza was not banned from VSB, they were deleted because, by supporters admission, they were to that time unsalvageable due to a lack of experts and japanese speaking people. Something which isn't getting rectified with this thread specificly. All this is accomplishing is walking back a intensly argued decision without fixing the core issue at the moment.

Rather than trying to get the verse back halfbakedly, concrete proposals and drafts are required. Cosmology blogs, explanation blogs, scaling and termology blogs are all required for the succesfull return of this otherwise inaccesible verse.

This serves double duty, not only to establish a fondation the staff can actually evaluate, but to establish you guys as actual experts who can carry this beloved verse well into the future. And I'm saying this with absolutly and utterly 0 offense meant, but what has been shown here does not spark confidence in me. I'm sure if given adequate time and preparations you guys can do it, I do believe you guys when you say you have the passion and expertise to run this. But this is not how the Wiki works, expertise is not assumed based on believe, but shown through work. And work entails well sourced and argued explanations.

Shinza, right now on this very wiki, is an empty slate, it is by all accounts tierless. So why shackle yourself to the old profiles when they were denied by the wiki already?
 
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First_Witch said:
I honestly dont see the point of this approach either. Shinza was not banned from VSB, they were deleted because, by supporters admission, they were to that time unsalvageable due to a lack of experts and japanese speaking people. Something which isn't getting rectified with this thread specificly. All this is accomplishing is walking back a intensly argued decision without fixing the core issue at the moment.

Rather than trying to get the verse back halfbakedly, concrete proposals and drafts are required. Cosmology blogs, explanation blogs, scaling and termology blogs are all required for the succesfull return of this otherwise inaccesible verse.

This serves double duty, not only to establish a fondation the staff can actually evaluate, but to establish you guys as actual experts who can carry this beloved verse well into the future. And I'm saying this with absolutly and utterly 0 offense meant, but what has been shown here does not spark confidence in me. I'm sure if given adequate time and preparations you guys can do it, I do believe you guys when you say you have the passion and expertise to run this. But this is not how the Wiki works, expertise is not assumed based on believe, but shown through work. And work entails well sourced and argued explanations.

Shinza, right now on this very wiki, is an empty slate, it is by all accounts tierless. So why shackle yourself to the old profiles when they were denied by the wiki already?
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This seems to make sense to me, but it depends on what @DontTalkDT thinks.
 
First_Witch said:
I honestly dont see the point of this approach either. Shinza was not banned from VSB, they were deleted because, by supporters admission, they were to that time unsalvageable due to a lack of experts and japanese speaking people. Something which isn't getting rectified with this thread specificly. All this is accomplishing is walking back a intensly argued decision without fixing the core issue at the moment.

Rather than trying to get the verse back halfbakedly, concrete proposals and drafts are required. Cosmology blogs, explanation blogs, scaling and termology blogs are all required for the succesfull return of this otherwise inaccesible verse.

This serves double duty, not only to establish a fondation the staff can actually evaluate, but to establish you guys as actual experts who can carry this beloved verse well into the future. And I'm saying this with absolutly and utterly 0 offense meant, but what has been shown here does not spark confidence in me. I'm sure if given adequate time and preparations you guys can do it, I do believe you guys when you say you have the passion and expertise to run this. But this is not how the Wiki works, expertise is not assumed based on believe, but shown through work. And work entails well sourced and argued explanations.

Shinza, right now on this very wiki, is an empty slate, it is by all accounts tierless. So why shackle yourself to the old profiles when they were denied by the wiki already?
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Fair enough, I suppose. This makes sense to me. I'm willing to wait for another revision when things are more planned out and prepared
 
Can we please close this thread? I think everyone has made themselves clear that this blog and thread isn't worth being kept open due to the disarray and disorganisation. Additionally, the moderators don't agree with contention provided within this thread. The most optimal solution is to close it and reopen or make a new thread with more concrete arguments and clarifying any doubts that the people had in this thread.
 
Thanks for the reply everyone.
Honestly the profiles are ready, the ability and intelligence section of most of them are done. The only thing we wanted to bring back as they were was the tiers and not the profiles filled with abilities that has no scans
So I plan on replying DT when I get the time to, but should I drop some ready profiles so you guys can vet it and see if they are wiki worthy pages?

First_Witch said:
And work entails well sourced and argued explanations.
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Antvasima said:
It seems more respectful and cautious to wait for DontTalk first.
Click to expand...
check the message above
First_Witch said:
Shinza, right now on this very wiki, is an empty slate, it is by all accounts tierless. So why shackle yourself to the old profiles when they were denied by the wiki already?
Click to expand...
Would you say shinza on the wiki is like a singularity and we are the gods and can paint it in whatever color we want?
 
DontTalkDT said:
Well, my personal suggestion for how to do it was to debate the stats, see if an agreement can be reached and then recreate the profile in updated form, rather then first restore the outdated stuff and then have a CRT.
We can also do it differently, though. I don't mind.

Most of the suggested stats seem fine.

After reading the blog I can say that I personally consider the evidence for 1-B insufficient, though. For a being 1 dimensionality higher, all lower dimensions equally look to be 0 size. So I don't think you have to be infinite layers of infinity higher to match the statements that are given. I think 13D would suffice.
That would of course be different if we had a statement along the lines of "even if there were infinite dimensions...", "independent of the number of dimensions...", "unlimited dimensions could be added..." or anything like that, but I think nothing like that was mentioned in the blog?
Click to expand...
No you are right nothing like that was mentioned in the blog, but the reasons for 1-A are these
1. Let me start with the PL one, which is Paradise Lost, like you know already, Paradise Lost consists of Higher Dimensions and some special people who have the ability to lose their sin/lose their shell and ascend to higher dimensions, now they can do this to any number of steps, but no matter how much they ascend or lose their sin, they will not reach the throne. To simply things there is a verse mechanics that allows special people to ascend higher dimensions, but no matter how much they ascend they will not reach the throne, Satanael then thought maybe a being with no sin can reach it, well to say the least, they still could not reach it. Also these dimensions are not spatial Dimensions but spiritual dimensions, so there can be no argument of the throne being referred to as having spatial properties.
They are steps called leylines that allows you to move ascend these higher dimensions, but when it comes to keter(the throne) it is a veil(wall).
Admittedly PL is the first work of shinza so it is wonky and had a few things retconned, the reason why I explained what was said above was to show that the throne has no anti-feat of it being one of the regular dimensions even in PL.

2. The gods view creation as a mandala (TL: For me, all things are this mandala. The landscape is distant. Beautiful, but remote.) , also laws, concepts and phenomenons are colors to the gods, or rather they view it on the mandala as colors.
A good narration will be this from Avesta
Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.
Click to expand...
Every concept, law and phenomenon, is a colour on a painting(mandala) that the gods are viewing

3. The gods themselves do not participate in this laws, concepts or phenomenon, and these laws compared to taikyoku are called mere physics/assorted laws.
Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku. In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics. What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition. It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation would change into a wattery bottom............ My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
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Also like Tarang already said above, any concept, simple or complex were also said to be governed by these common laws that are not taikyoku.

4. Aside from the fact that they do not participate in it, they are the source/origin of all these concepts, laws and phenomenon. So there are three things to note, They are the source of all things in creation, they have control of all things in creation and they also do not participate in all things in creation.
And finally all things in creation are colors on the mandala that they are viewing

5. Now to the one that will probably be the longest point, the Singularity and how it was described, I will just quote tarang at first before building more on it
シャンバラの方陣が消失する。 産道は弾け飛び、ついに窮屈な檻から放たれた死人の世界が、爆発的に広がりだす。 それを阻止せんと、停止の世界もさらに強まり── 高まる覇道と覇道の閲ぎ合いは、ここに臨界を超えた。 The magical formation of Shambhala disappears. The birth canal bursts open, and the World of The Dead, at last free from its cramped cage, rapidly expands. In an attempt to stop it, the World of Standstill (停止) grows even stronger... The growing conflict between the two Hadou (覇道) has now reached a critical point (臨界).
Click to expand...
そう、臨界を超えたらどうなるか。 これを一枚の紙に例えてみよう。 そこには現在、 “既知”という絵が描かれている。 その一角、シャンバラという地域限定で、停止”という色と“死人”という色が領土を争いながら重ね塗りを続けているのだ。 この二色には、性質上の違いがある。 “停止”は色鉛筆で、“死人”は絵の具。しかも“チューブ”から直塗りしている絵の具だと思えばいい。 その産道 (チューブ) が、いま弾けた。 色鉛筆の塗り速度に対抗するため、絵の具は産道 (チューブ) が邪魔だったのである。 So, what happens when that critical point is exceeded? Let's compare this to a sheet of paper (紙). Currently on it is a picture (絵) that depicts "Foreknowledge". In one corner, in the region of Shambhala, the colors of "Standstill" and "The Dead" fight for territory and are painting over one another. The nature of these two colors also differs. The "Standstill" is a colored pencil, and "The Dead" was that of paint. Moreover, you can think of them as paint/color (絵の具) being applied directly from the "tube". That birth canal (tube) had burst open. In order to compete with the coating speed of the colored pencils, the tube's paint was in the way.
Click to expand...
結果、何がどうなるか。 強い筆圧や度を超えた重ね塗りは、絵を完成させる前に紙そのものへ穴を開ける。 そう、穴が開くのだ。臨界を突破するとはそういうこと。 それはなんと定義するべきだろう。 紙の上にありながら、絵ではないし色でもない。 すなわち、世界の特異点。 What was the result of this? The fierce brush strokes and excessive layers of coating (重ね塗) opened a hole (穴) before the very painting itself can be completed. Yes, a hole was open. That is what it means to exceed that critical point. How should it be defined? It is on paper, but it was neither a picture nor a color. That is to say, it was a Singularity (特異点) of the World.
Click to expand...
穴の大きさは不明。 シャンバラ全体を飲み込んだか、それともその外まで弾けたか、あるいは針の先ほどか。 不明だが、ともかく特異点は生じたのだ。 そしてそこに、この事態を引き起こした当事者全員が落ちていく。 では、紙の下にあるのは何か? The size of the hole is unknown. Was it large enough to swallow the entirety of Shambhala, or could it burst open to the rest, or was it just the tip of a needle? It was unknown but whatever it may be, a Singularity was created. And that is where all of the parties involved in bringing this about had fallen to.
Click to expand...
「ようこそ──」 穴の向こうにあるのは此処。 今や完全な白紙状態。何色も存在せず、何色にもなれる此処こそが、最終的な決着の場として相応しい。 「新世界へ。今、我々が総ての中心にある」 では、最後の恐怖劇 (グランギニョル) を始めようか。 "I welcome you..." What lay beyond the hole is here. It is now a completely blank slate. There existed no colors, yet can be of any color. An appropriate place for the final end. "This is the New World. Now, we stand at the center of it all." So, let the end of the Horror Play (Grand Guignol) commence.
Click to expand...

To summarise to reach the singularity, you need to tear open the paper(creation) and see what is behind the paper.
  • So to say the singularity is the blank canvas upon which the Gods can paint whatever they want, it is the birth place of new worlds and where the Gods add whatever they want.
  • And the Singularity was described as a place lacking all concepts, including space and time. i.e. an absolute void
  • Also Yakou a walking singularity was said to not have experience the concept of space, (TL:In the first place, I have never been aware of the concept of space itself. It is an impossible story when you think about it.)
  • It was also said that it cannot "even be called a place"
助けてやると息巻いておきながら、もっとも重要な局面で大事な女を見殺しにしてしまった。 クインやマグサリオンに文句をつける資格などなく、すべて己の不甲斐なさが原因である。 「クソッ、どうしてオレは、こんなザマに….....!」 『欲をかくからそうなる」 「―」 何処からともなく不意に響いた声を聞いて、ズルワーンは顔を上げた。 そして周囲の異変に気付く。 「なんだ、ここは…?」 つい先ほどまで、彼は空葬圏にいたはずだった。如何に誰からも認識されない立場であろうと、その事実は確かなモノとして存在しているはずだった。なのにそれすらも奪われる。 今ズルワーンが立っているのは、これを”場”と言ってよいのかすら不明な異形異色の空間だった。 「転墜とは、自らの意志で破戒を選んだ者に与える祝福だ。己で己の道を定め、なおそこから脱却せんとする在り方を私は軽薄と思わない。 成長であり、進化であり、羽化であろうと考えて、概ね喜ばしきものにしてやるところを、どうして抗ったのだマシュヤーナよ。おまえは大人しく、私の差配に従っていれば幸せを得られたのに」

I was so determined to save her that I left her for dead at the most critical moment. I have no right to complain about Quinn or Magsarion, it's all my own fault.
'Damn, why am I in this mess ........!'
That's what happens when you get greedy."
"-"
The first time he heard the voice, he looked up. He then notices something unusual about his surroundings.
'What is this place...?'
Just a few moments ago, he should have been in the air burial zone. No matter how unrecognisable his position was, that fact should have existed as a certainty. And yet even that was taken away from him. What Zulwaan is standing in now is an oddly shaped and unusual space that it is unclear whether it can even be called a "place".
The fall is a blessing given to those who voluntarily choose to break the commandments. I don't think it's frivolous to set one's own path and then try to break away from it. Why did you resist, O Mashyana, when I would have considered it growth, evolution and hatching, and generally made it a joyous thing? You could have been happy if you had been quiet and followed my orders."
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And yes I used DeepL for that, he lost all sense of direction inside the singularity and said it cannot be called a place.
Also this from Ikabey "Spaces that escapes the laws of the world destroyed the concepts of distance and coordinates" in relation to reinhard's place, a place half-step above beriah and half-step below aztiluth(that which is needed to reach the singularity)
To explain more on the reinhard point, with beriah you are already above all the worlds laws,, you can overwrite the laws eitehr way, Now reinhard is half step above that(beriah).
Edit: Needless to say, when they say concepts, it will also include concepts of space and dimensions like I have shown.

6. Now I can go on and on about the throne, but that will be redundant, all that is needed to be known is that the singularity is the only way to reach the throne, you need to drill into the singularity to try and reach the throne, even with taikyoku, if you are not as powerful as the god on the throne, you will keep falling inside the singularity forever and never reach the throne
In order to reach the Throne, the challenger may opt to drill through the Singularity using their laws , and without "strength" that matches or exceeds the throne God, they will never succeed in doing so as it will be too deep. Such was the case of Tenma Yato's desperate struggle.
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ただし、底に達するまでの距離はまちまち。より強力な神格ほど、深い場所に座を設けているものだから、ものによっては何年経っても辿り着けないこともある。
TL: The distance to reach the bottom varies. Depending on the God's power, the more powerful the God, the deeper the Throne is, making it sometimes impossible to reach them even after years of effort.
Click to expand...
We also have Mercurius quote when he stopped Reinhard and Ren from fighting inside the singularity. To which he means, no matter what they do, they will never reach the throne and will just keep on going from one layer of the singularity to another endlessly. And how the layers of the singularity works are in the blog, the singularity section but they are not relevant right now.
So to say, The Throne >> Singularity >> Creation and what makes it up (its concepts)

Now this point on its own may not mean much, but when you put them together I think it is enough for 1-A.
 
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So in essence, you have characters who view type 1 concepts as fiction? Is that a accurate/semi-accurate kind of way of looking at it?
 
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