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Shin Megami Tensei Revisions / Updates

Yeah, the statement is quite vague. It doesn't help that he's a DLC demon with questionable relevance to the story of SMTIV to begin with. IV-A may have retcon'd certain details involving him and the Ancient of Days anyway.
 
Regarding the 2-A to High 2-A upgrade:

It may be safer to present the characters being considered as '2-A, possibly higher', like with many other profiles, rather than outright upgrading them. I've seen the current 'At least 2-A' rankings cause some confusion.

On the other hand, it may help to come up with a new term entirely - something like 'High-End 2-A' (not High 2-A, but on the higher end of Regular 2-A).
 
Jaakuace43 said:
snip
Click to expand...
High 2-A is from possible scalling to Canopus and Polaris, who view the multiverse as a computer program. Although I have my doubts regarding this from what I've read...

If they aren't going to upgraded to High 2-A, they simply remain at "At least 2-A"
 
Taking DeSu 2 into consideration is a bit iffy to begin with. Don't the Devil Survivor games take place within a separate continuity from the main series anyway?
 
I'm neutral of scaling with Canopus. God tiers like YHVH and Lucifer can probably scale to him but not all of the high-ends.
 
I was iffy on the whole "scalling to Polaris and Canopus"-thingy as a whole, honestly, but I think we should at least hear Matt's argument, since... He was the one who proposed this, apparently

@Jaakuace43

Amala itself is a Multiverse and is stated to be infinite
 
Ultima Reality said:
I disagree with Sanat being High 2-A, his statement implying Higher-Dimensions is too vague and only indicates that he sees Humans in general as being creatures of Lower-Dimensions. It doesn't say anything about his own Dimensionality
Click to expand...
I mean considering he is kind of Mid game boss he is already on the very high 2-A scale imstead of other 2-C and 2-A, and I mean, it technically says something about his Dimensionality, the fact that he is at least 4-D.

This is mostly a supporting feat, due to the fact that Nanashi and the rest junps from 2-A to 1-C, not instantly but without some tier in between.
 
I'd still reserve judgement in regards to Sanat. He could be ranked as 'At least 2-A', but an outright upgrade would be iffy.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Amala itself is a Multiverse and is stated to be infinite
Click to expand...
I thought Amala was simply the space in which the multiverse existed in, though.

Better ask Matt on this one, I'd say.
 
The profile shows him as being simply 2-A, not 'At least 2-A'. From what I can gather, 'At least 2-A' implies a character's on the higher end of 2-A without being outright High 2-A.
 
Jaakuace43 said:
Taking DeSu 2 into consideration is a bit iffy to begin with. Don't the Devil Survivor games take place within a separate continuity from the main series anyway?
Click to expand...
You do fight classic demons like Lilith, Belial, Beelzebub and Alice in the New Game Plus. It's a different multiverse.
 
The Lady in Black literally calls it "Amala Universe", and states that it is the place where "Time and Space meld together and flow as one"
 
Would Massacre Nanashi or TDE Demi-Fiend get High Godly Regenerationn? I don't believe there's anything suggesting that they could have it, but I could be wrong.

Acausality I can see.

Non-corporeality and Abstract Existence I'm unsure of.
 
Demons are literally beings of Data which are summoned through Computer Programs and created through a force that reshapes Reality and gives form to abstract ideas / phenomena or stories
 
Ah, okay. Sorry for misinterpreting your response

I am not sure either. I don't think we can slap Abstract Existence in people such as Abel, who simply absorbed the power of the other Bel Demons and became one himself

I could see them being Non-Corporeal, but not Abstract. Since they aren't like other Demons who embody ideas or phenomena
 
Demi-Fiend was also able to permanently kill Kagutsuchi, despite becoming a 'True Demon', which would contradict the idea of demons/deities not being able to kill other demons/deities.

Nanashi is at least technically still human up until he kills YHVH.
 
It is not the first time Shin Megami Tensei contradicts itself or introduces new concepts that retcon previously established things. Just look at Satan as he appears in Apocalypse and the original Megami Tensei II

Although, I think Kagutsuchi is a different story altogether. Every Demon has shown the ability to resurrect after being killed since the beginning
 
Would it be fair to take Demi-Fiend's appearance in DDS1 into consideration? Those who end up in the Junkyard are essentially AI, i.e. they consist of data like demons do.

Then again, DDS regards everything in the known universe to be made of data, so maybe that doesn't mean much.

(This is also an optional boss fight we're talking about, so that might also make things iffy).
 
Not really the most knowledgeable person on Digital Devil Saga, since I have yet to finish both games

Anyways... Can we say that Masakado at his fullest is above Lucifer and Merkabah? Considering that he consumed the spirits that gave origin to both of them in the first place
 
The Demi Fiend from DDS1 is more or less just a copy. And yes, everything in The Junkyard is AI. But you don't just end up in The Junkyard. The Junkyard as a whole is created by Sera, a Cyber Shaman who created the Virtual World after watching Serph Sheffield murder Heat O'Brien. Every person in The Junkyard is basically just an AI created from Sera's memories.
 
Is it ever stated that the Demi-Fiend that's encountered is just a copy?

It might be safer to just disregard it anyway. Unlike Satan, where they explain why he's in Nirvana, the encounter with Demi-Fiend really doesn't go in-depth with why he's in the Junkyard specifically.
 
Actually Satan isn't in Nirvana, he's in one of the deepest parts of the Sun. Nirvana exists beyond Brahman in which Seraph and Schrödinger only reached after its defeat.
 
The thing about Demi-Fiend is that it should theoretically be impossible for him to even enter The Junkyard since its just a Virtual Reality Simulation stored in the Karma Society.

So the only possible explanation I can think of is that the Demi-Fiend that you fight in the game is basically just a copy made from data, since it is unlikely to be the real one.
 
Also, about the True Demon Demi-Fiend being able to kill Kagutsuchi, this is just a theory but I don't think that turning into a demon takes away a human's power of observation. I think that there is a difference between a demon created from observation and a human with observation becoming a demon such that once you have observation you keep it. A human does not spontaneously lose it once they stop being a human.

This is somewhat supported by the Dissemination Machine from DDS1, "Everything born of God holds the informational possibility of demons. The 'Virus' is merely a trigger."

This is further supported the events of SMTIV and SMTIVA, where their were parts in those games where humans started turning into demons. While in actuality, according to the quote, they were awakening their inner demon self. This could also explain why Demi-Fiend still has the power of Observation, since humans are already demons to an extent, so he would just be a human who has 'awakened' his full demon powers.
 
In the Faight of Lucifer, he will Awake the True Demon.


Also, Half Demons have power of Observation, Hallelujah is the example of this.
 
I'm like 100% certain Demi-Fiend becomes fully demon when he reaches the Lucifer in the Labyrinth and gets lowered into the pool of Magatsuhi.

Hell, when he wakes up in Shinjuku Medical Center for a second time, the ghost outside even says something to the effect of "You have been reborn yet again."

Kagutsuchi also calls Demi-Fiend a demon before fighting him.

The game makes it abundantly clear that as soon as you're locked into the True Demon Ending, you are no longer human. No sooner, no later.
 
How long do you think these revisions are going to take?

I'm thinking it may be better to split the process into phases if we haven't decided on that already. Maybe start with more prominent figures such as YHVH, Satan, Lucifer, etc.; then the more common demons.
 
Since most seem to agree with the proposed revisions, I suppose that it will depend on the amount of time it will take to update the pages, and the way we decide to rewrite them, too.
 
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