Shantae vs Ultear (because the first thread was shut down over dumb arguments)

[AquaWaifu]

Shantae is a bit underrated




Shantae - 5 ()

VS

Ultear Milkovich - 3 ()

Inconclusive - 0 ()


BATTLE CONDITIONS/RULES:

Ultear is her Low 7-B key, X784

Battle is in Fuyuki City

starting distance is 5 meters

speed equalized

both in-character

no knowledge or preptime.

 

[Zackra1799]

 

[Zackra1799]

But in all seriousness I maintain my vote from the previous thread for Danmaku Homing spam and Negging most of Shantae's powers.

 

[AquaWaifu]

What do you feel about Shantae's phasing with vanishing cream?

 

[Zackra1799]

I'm going to do a crt because Ultear need NPI and a bunch of other stuff with her Thought Projection magic as it's effects are the same as natsu's and she doesn't need to be unconsious for it, unlike Natsu who does.

She should have this:

Soul Manipulation (He can freely control his Soul), Non-Corporeal (As a Soul, no physical being can touch him), Non-Physical Interaction (As a Soul, he can hit ghosts and other Souls. He can also hit physical beings as well), Invisibility (As a Soul, nobody except other Souls can see him), Durability Negation (Can hit the Soul of someone while simultaneously hurting their Physical Body)

 

[AquaWaifu]

does this also work for her balls?

 

[Zackra1799]

I assume, as it's apart of her magic and this carries over to natsu's magic as well

 

[DatOneWeeb]

My question previously wasn't answered. Thought Projection is mostly used as a hologram and cannot interact with anyone. Only certain characters can use them to harm others. Is this the same case for Ultear?

 

[Schnee_One]

It wasn't shut down over dumb arguments or whatever that means, it was closed because people couldn't cut having an argumentative tone with either one

Considering the title of this thread I have no faith the same won't happen

 

[AquaWaifu]

My question previously wasn't answered. Thought Projection is mostly used as a hologram and cannot interact with anyone. Only certain characters can use them to harm others. Is this the same case for Ultear?

Yeah Im curious can that be confirmed for her?

 

[Zackra1799]

My question previously wasn't answered. Thought Projection is mostly used as a hologram and cannot interact with anyone. Only certain characters can use them to harm others. Is this the same case for Ultear?

Natsu dispite just learing it and having no prior training was capable of the list of abilities above. The magic council memebers who were required to learn and use it better than natsu (ie can remain conscious and as for Jellal and Ultear could fool the entire magic council who were all proficent users of Thought Projection), should be at least as proficient as Natsu.

 

[AquaWaifu]

Theres nothing to imply what he did with was new or surprising?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So we haven't seen her use it as what I listed? I don't think it can be used then, we need to legitimately see her use it.

 

[Zackra1799]

No Natsu even mentioned he learned specifically Thought Projection magic, almost like he knows of said magic before.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yes, Natsu. But I am talking about Ultear.

 

[AquaWaifu]

I actually think there is precedence for more experienced users to do what Natsu did, is there any implication what Natsu did is something the other users could do OTHER than the fact Natsu did it?

 

[Zackra1799]

I actually think there is precedence for more experienced users to do what Natsu did, is there any implication what Natsu did is something the other users could do OTHER than the fact Natsu did it?

Yes Jellal was shown to be able to interact and harm people with thought Projection magic dispite it being non corporeal and Ultear would scale to Jellal due to them both fooling other proficeint Thought projection users(The Old Magic Council) with their own thought projections.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I still need scans of Ultear doing the same. This is because from what I'm reading, only special and certain people can use it that way. Otherwise we're just assuming she can do that with no evidence.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Ultear for Zackra's reasons tbh

 

[Zackra1799]

I still need scans of Ultear doing the same. This is because from what I'm reading, only special and certain people can use it that way. Otherwise we're just assuming she can do that with no evidence.

By your reasoning a person stated to use Fire Dragon Slayer Magic can't produce fire because they weren't shown it.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's a false equivalence. You're trying to "scale" her magic with others despite the fact that this type of Thought Projection is a special type. She didn't state that she can use it to attack intangibles.

 

[Zackra1799]

But it's not stated to be special in anyway, Natsu even reconizes it as thought projection magic dispite him just learning it.


Hell natsu didn't even know how to control it properly until he was half into the fight with wraith.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

It is in the wiki, as it stated that it's commonly used as holograms only. Only certain character's can use it that way.

And? Tons of character gains a new ability and can use it in a more powerful way without much experience, that's just how main characters can be. I have yet to see Ultear being able to use it the same way.

 

[Zackra1799]

If you think Natsu's Thought Projection is different than everyone else's thought projection then i would like the scan that proves me wrong.

 

[Zackra1799]

And for backing up my evidence here is multiple quotes saying natsu is just a thought projection and nothing more:

 

[DatOneWeeb]

If you think Natsu's Thought Projection is different than everyone else's thought projection then i would like the scan that proves me wrong.

While some Thought Projections are intangible like holograms, used merely for communication,[5 Jellal Fernandes is able to create a particularly powerful Thought Projection that can physically interact with people and objects, even though it lacks physical form.]

Those images doesn't change anything to what I said previously.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Hmmm... Maybe this one won't get outta hand.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nothing has changed for me. Argue all you want with what I said before already, I honestly don't care sufficiently at this point, but my vote remains for Ultear.

 

[AquaWaifu]

I will state theres no real argument in regards to "Shantae in-character wouldnt use vanishing cream offensively." For her to become intangible and not try and still attack would mean she at the point of using it would have to be in such a disadvantageous state that trying to attack would seem futile She CAN obviously still attack during it, so why WOULDNT she come to that conclusion on her own? Your using the basic in game text to dictate Shantae's own actions as if she could never deviate from them.

Proof was posted of her being able to attack during vanishing cream, and yes its MAIN focus in game is to avoid combat, that does not mean Shantae COULDNT use it to fight.as it would be complicated for Wayforward to muddle the message by saying "You can avoid attacks with this, but...you can also attack with it. Acting as if Shantae wouldnt think to attack while being invisible AND intagible, two big advantages on their own in most any combat situation, is absurd.

 

[AquaWaifu]

Im withholding Ultear votes till the CRT Ultear has currently is concluded atleast based on Zackra's reasons as the CRT he has on Ultear is not yet finished and his reasoning that he and other in this thread seem to relate heavily to info in that CRT, and if it ends up not being approved would debunk a good chunk of the argument in this thread being used in Ultear's favor

Other reasons of course will still be considered. Just not THOSE specific ones as Im waiting for some conclusion on the CRT about them.

If Ultear's T.P cant work like Natsu use of it then she would have no way to hit Shantae once she uses her vanishing cream.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

All that you said changes literally nothing about the fact nothing indicates she would use it for battle, like I've said so many times that it has become tiring, so it really matters little. And why wouldn't she? Why would she is my question. When has she ever attacked or thought of attacking someone while abusing the Vanishing Cream to come to this conclusion? Like I said so many times before, the very description of the item points to it being used to escape rather than otherwise. Only player actions end with her using it for attack. You are literally telling me she wins by magically knowing she can do something she has never done while intangible if she even decides to go intangible, when might as well get the hell away when she realizes Ultear can indeed see/sense her anyway.

So yes, I won't hang on the possibility of Shantae maybe thinking that something she has never used to attack would allow her to when she already has to deal with everything Ultear can do and with other combat options she has literally no reason not to use instead.

I don't mind withholding if a CRT is going on.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Hang on, the purpose for the Vanishing Cream is not to escape, it's both used for puzzles and combat. For the puzzles, it involves her phasing through walls, with combat being for what I should in the video. Your argument that it isn't used for combat is outright headcanon, most if not all items are used during situations of when you are fighting in. You are assuming she doesn't know what the item does because "it's only used to run away" which is completely false. That isn't player based. Nor is simply using an item "abusing it". You need to realize by your logic that this doesn't affect Shantae, but so many other characters despite the fact that we've allowed this.

I'll say it again. Nothing contradicts Shantae from using it. Nothing contradicts Shantae from knowing how it works. She will end up using it eventually. Maybe not from the start, but she will eventually. She has no reason not to use it.

 

[Theuser789]

Shantae for DatoneWeeb reasons

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except that purpose is not hinted in literally anyway...? That'd be like saying the purpose of some broken card combinations in Yu Gi Oh or Magic was fully intended, which they rarely are, or some outside the box thinking use of a mechanic in a game - we aren't gonna start arguing The Vendor dude in RE4 has Creation as a power because you get completely free rounds if you upgrade the ammo capacity of an empty weapon, right...? I hope we aren't.

A lot does actually, the fact you can't get why is not my business though. You literally keep parroting to me stuff the player does in game and that is never hinted in anyway. Know what the difference between her getting items with it and her beating enemies with it is? Some items you can't get without the Vanishing Cream, so she obviously had to use it. There's not a single enemy nowhere in the entire game Shantae can't beat without it, so nothing indicates she ever needed or used it that way.

Having to argue common sense is getting tiring. Honestly keep arguing all you want, you'll still be in the wrong.

 

[AquaWaifu]

Its simply being creative with intangibility and invisibility. Its not like using the cream makes her uanable to touch others if she so chooses. So how would she even come to that conlusion to NOT use it in a combative manner? Im coming at this from the perspective of Shantae, why would she NOT think to to attack while using the vanishing cream?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

For the same reason we don't assume people are just gonna suddenly think of doing stuff they've never done.

Make a CRT to change this shit if you want, I don't honestly even care if you do succeed, but is not how we do stuff here. She has a good couple of games to hint that she could think of this stuff, yet it never happens. Pardon me for being extremely unconvinced.

 

[AquaWaifu]

Is there a reason for the games to hint at something that the player can already figure out through creative application of game mechanics? Isnt that like...the golden standard of good game design? Like I imagine all players are going to naturally attack when using it anyway, I know I did. Im not going to make a CRT since this issue is I mean aside from you Ive never even come across this issue in vs battle with videogame characters.


Shantae is not a stupid character, she would still try to attack while in a state where for most battles she would be INCAPABLE of being hit. Hell if the CRT for Ultear (and other though projection users) goes negatviely for her that will apply to THIS battle as well. You're telling me Shantae would use cream that makes Ultear's attacks effectively USELESS and she WOULDNT try to attack? Thats just....out of character!

Unless you assume she'd use the cream and be under the assumption in this battle she could no longer attack. IM not thinking about this in terms of game mechanices and usage, I'm viewing this in terms of Shantae if she was fighting someone.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then I don't know where you've been arguing because I see it all the time. Unless you are not putting some context like those characters having literal quests or moments in the story where they use abilities a certain way so the people know the character knows of this option. Dovahkiin you sould never argue as proof of anything, Prisoner Metaphysics more or less means he does everything he could potentially do at once and all options are true or something unless there was a CRT I've missed.

By that logic she'd just try that in every difficult battle on her series to not have to go through the trouble. Sorry, I am not convinced at all.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Shantae FRA.

The same line of logic that she won't use it if the need arises because she's never shown to use it within cutscenes would apply to the majority of video game characters at that rate, no matter how much of a combat pragmatist they are.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So you're going to keep using this logic?

It's purpose isn't decided by the description. The description itself doesn't even matter to what we can actually see it do. That is a false equivalence, your example invovles the character using combinations and thinking outside the box. Here, all Shantae needs to do is just use it and it does its work. This isn't exactly some really difficult or complex ability, she just uses it and it works. I have no idea why Shantae would not want to use an item if she's about to get killed.

Your argument is from the fact that you don't need to use it for combat or need it to beat the game, which is a terrible reason. I'm tired of explaining why this argument isn't valid. Just because an item isn't required or needed doesn't stop them from using it. This would completely render a characters arsenal as useless for simply this reason, we do not count this as a valid reason. And if you're going to use this "standard" then it involves a thread for all video game characters as this isn't just for Shantae alone. You want to know why that example doesn't matter? Because abilities can have more than once use. You don't get to decide what the purpose of the item does, that's exactly what a "player decision" is. And the manual's description doesn't either, "let's you walk past enemies" wouldn't be an issue. It's like saying Mario's mushrooms don't allow healing when it's main purpose is to increase your size despite the fact it has healing as well. Kirby never needed certain copy abilities to defeat enemies, but is that going to stop him from using it? No. It's not about being required. It's about if it's combat applicable and not out of character, this case being neither.

It isn't "common sense". Many many fights with video game characters have the same thing in battles. You're requirements for an item being valid in battle or not are ridiculous and very strict. Again, if you want these to be 100% valid, then make a thread because this would require a page if this is such a huge issue for you. You do not get to decide what the standards are for what items can be used, and these standards weren't even valid to begin with.