Santōryū vs Niten Ichi-ryū

[Regidian]

I think you misunderstood what I said, I never said it would counter it while it's taking effect but before Musashi gets the chance to use it. I.E, Zoro predicts what's she's about to do in advance and counters accordingly. Not that she'd cut, he predicts and then counters.

I have tell predict because Gin say zoro will predict what she do when she have fight someone who do that too

 

[SnookB]

And again- We're using pre-Zero Musashi. Saying "she can unlock it while fighting Zoro" would mean she could've done so at any instance of Shimousa when her life was threatened. Until there's a CRT that's accepted about that, it won't apply.

This seems like a one hit KO on both ends. If her eye shaves down all possibility to land one killing blow, she wins. But because of Zoro's Kenbunshoku, he'd just foresee that next move and either prevent or counter it. She never fought a precognition user like Zoro is the issue. Yagyu is PREDICTION, and it's far more different.
The way I see it, it's a Ryuma situation. The fight wouldn't last long and both would take eachother seriously to the point where they'd want to win via first blood. And considering Zoro has several of methods of slowing her down (flying slashes, AOE with Tatsu and BR Tatsu, and Goken), she'll need a miracle to overcome his versatility and get close enough to land her hit. Hell, there's an instance vs Ivan where she literally CAN'T use her eye's ability because he's capable of smacking her away before she gets a good cut in.

My vote stays for Zoro. Far more versatile, Precognition that bypasses her acausality's type, and overall higher buffs and amps during combat.

 

[SnookB]

I have tell predict because Gin say zoro will predict what she do when she have fight someone who do that too

Because the one she fought predicts thousands of POSSIBILITIES while Zoro predicts only the one definitive one based on her final decision. Kenbunshoku is just far superior to what she's taken on before.

 

[LordGinSama]

I have tell predict because Gin say zoro will predict what she do when she have fight someone who do that too

Not all Prediction is born the same, that's the point. Yagyu might be able to predict further ahead but that doesn't automatically make it better, it's just better in that regard. In terms of versatility Zoro's Prediction takes the cake as his works on inanimate / non living objects. Rocks, trees, the air itself have something called "Breath." that Zoro uses to predict.


I wouldn't say Zoro's is better for that reason alone it's just an advantage for Zoro's Prediction. See what I mean? Your focusing on one thing when there are several.

 

[Regidian]

Because the one she fought predicts thousands of POSSIBILITIES while Zoro predicts only the one definitive one based on her final decision. Kenbunshoku is just far superior to what she's taken on before.

Bruh the thousand possibility is coming from her technique not her opponent, you can't even read scan correctly?

You should really learn to read quote i send and scan i send, yagyuu don't predict possibility, he predict outcome, like 10 time i send the quote seriously.
He predict every final decision she can do for every action that can happen in the fight. When zoro can only predict one final decision by action. He can only see the final decision that by ex she atk left for one atk.
And even that do nothing because her fate manip make that the final decision is choose by her and he can't change it because fate.

And one more time seeing on final decision is not better than seeing all possible final decision or just all final decision in all the combat

 

[Excaliburhuman]

How does precog help against fate manip?

 

[Regidian]

And again- We're using pre-Zero Musashi. Saying "she can unlock it while fighting Zoro" would mean she could've done so at any instance of Shimousa when her life was threatened. Until there's a CRT that's accepted about that, it won't apply.

This seems like a one hit KO on both ends. If her eye shaves down all possibility to land one killing blow, she wins. But because of Zoro's Kenbunshoku, he'd just foresee that next move and either prevent or counter it. She never fought a precognition user like Zoro is the issue. Yagyu is PREDICTION, and it's far more different.
The way I see it, it's a Ryuma situation. The fight wouldn't last long and both would take eachother seriously to the point where they'd want to win via first blood. And considering Zoro has several of methods of slowing her down (flying slashes, AOE with Tatsu and BR Tatsu, and Goken), she'll need a miracle to overcome his versatility and get close enough to land her hit. Hell, there's an instance vs Ivan where she literally CAN'T use her eye's ability because he's capable of smacking her away before she gets a good cut in.

My vote stays for Zoro. Far more versatile, Precognition that bypasses her acausality's type, and overall higher buffs and amps during combat.

Where i have say that she can unlock it when facing zoro? **** pls don't invent thing.


Yagyu is not prediction where do you see the word prediction on his ability or feat?

+ She have fought too on even before being that can straight see the direct futur already tell.

And a miracle> basic ability of heaven eyes creating miracle or choosing the possibility where she not dying.

(Performs a beam slash that sever fates, allowing her achieve her desired outcome and ward off untimely deaths, karmic damage, curses, and tragedies).

For ivan itls like because he is a a tier 1 guy that she can't damage? what even this argument, you compare her not being able to damage a tier 1 guy to fightings a guy with same tier...

 

[LordGinSama]

And one more time seeing on final decision is not better than seeing all possible final decision or just all final decision in all the combat.

That's not necessarily true either tbh. Like I said above it really depends on the context of the Prediction and what kind of feats it has (bypassing resistance to Prediction, working on FTE opponents, working on intimate objects, working on the unpredictable etc.) it isn't just "how far you can see." otherwise Elrad from Warhammer would solo skill stomp everyone.

 

[SnookB]

And one more time seeing on final decision is not better than seeing all possible final decision or just all final decision in all the combat

It technically is. Foreseeing all possibilities to figure 1 is inferior to bypassing all "possible" ones and just foreseeing the final decision.

How does precog help against fate manip?

It shouldn't, but her fate manip is weird because it leads to her cutting you through every possibility of NOT cutting you. But if her mystic eye leads her to land that definitive blow on Zoro, then Zoro would foresee that attack.

And one more time seeing on final decision is not better than seeing all possible final decision or just all final decision in all the combat.

That's not necessarily true either tbh. Like I said above it really depends on the context of the Prediction and what kind of feats it has (bypassing resistance to Prediction, working on FTE opponents, working on intimate objects, working on the unpredictable etc.) it isn't just "how far you can see." otherwise Elrad from Warhammer would solo skill stomp everyone.

I already used that example earlier with Kaido, that the one way that anyone bypassed Kenbunshoku was by being FTE, like Kaido was to Luffy. Because even though Luffy's precog was on point, Kaido was too fast for him to react.
In this case they've got equal speed and he's the only one with speed boosting attacks. The issue lies in the fact that there's no precognition user that she fought that'd scale off Zoro's Kenbunshoku, which makes this more complicated than it should be.

 

[Regidian]

It technically is. Foreseeing all possibilities to figure 1 is inferior to bypassing all "possible" ones and just foreseeing the final decision.

It's not? Foreseeing all possible is not just about figure 1 is to account and predict everything he could, if you see just the final decision, it can be changed if the person know you see it, if you have see all possibilities even if he change the final decision, he can't do a thing because it was already a possibility that the guy see

 

[Excaliburhuman]

It shouldn't, but her fate manip is weird because it leads to her cutting you through every possibility of NOT cutting you. But if her mystic eye leads her to land that definitive blow on Zoro, then Zoro would foresee that attack.

So why is everyone arguing who has better precog. Zoro seeing him getting cut is not going to change the fact that he will be cut since the possibility of him not getting cut is already cut down

 

[LordGinSama]

Zoro's normal predictions have already worked on those who are FTE to him and or faster (Kaku with Soru and his Zoan Amps.)


I still also disagree with Yagyu's and Sasaki's Predictions being inherently better than Zoro's whenever moss head has prediction feats they don't so it goes both ways.

 

[Regidian]

Itls litteraly why kenbunshoku can be counter by another kenbonshoku as they just see other final decision and change it when, you can't counter musashi. Because even if you change she already have see this change

 

[Regidian]

It shouldn't, but her fate manip is weird because it leads to her cutting you through every possibility of NOT cutting you. But if her mystic eye leads her to land that definitive blow on Zoro, then Zoro would foresee that attack.

No, her fate manip is cutting every possibility of her not doing what she want. Why you change thing?

Like i tell even if zoro foresse that atk he can't change a thing because it doesn't exist a possibility to change, he locked to that one fate

 

[LordGinSama]

By the way, heathens there are like 50+ Swordsmen in the Nasuverse that you could use against Zoro but for some reason people only ever use Musashi and Sasaki.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I haven't even said anything and I'm mad.

 

[SnookB]

So why is everyone arguing who has better precog. Zoro seeing him getting cut is not going to change the fact that he will be cut since the possibility of him not getting cut is already cut down

That's assuming she has knowledge of him having foresight and taking that into account at all?? If her mystic eye was that good she wouldn't need Ritsuka's help to bypass Sasaki during the infinity/Zero clash and instead just cut beyond his infinity altogether.

 

[SnookB]

Musashi never fought anybody who can see the future to Zoro's degree of accuracy, that's why her shaving down fate to the last chance where she CAN cut him, he'd continue foreseeing that chance in every outcome. (This feels like another clash that won't end lmao)

 

[Regidian]

It technically is. Foreseeing all possibilities to figure 1 is inferior to bypassing all "possible" ones and just foreseeing the final decision.


It shouldn't, but her fate manip is weird because it leads to her cutting you through every possibility of NOT cutting you. But if her mystic eye leads her to land that definitive blow on Zoro, then Zoro would foresee that attack.

I already used that example earlier with Kaido, that the one way that anyone bypassed Kenbunshoku was by being FTE, like Kaido was to Luffy. Because even though Luffy's precog was on point, Kaido was too fast for him to react.
In this case they've got equal speed and he's the only one with speed boosting attacks. The issue lies in the fact that there's no precognition user that she fought that'd scale off Zoro's Kenbunshoku, which makes this more complicated than it should be.

Every servant can boost their stat it's on servant physiology and she like always fight people several quicker than her.

She have fight people that do better, scathach see the direct futur and see like litteraly all your life. Yagyuu can see and counter every outcome of a fight.



How can One piece ca'n wank so much a simple ability that just see futur for like 'ot even few sec? It's basically what do instinct rank A bruh

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

1 for Zoro!
Though, some people have a misconception about getting past Gae Bolg/causality changing attacks with just Precog. It's also stated, even on servant profiles, that their Luck stat is what really lets them overcome fate/causality based attacks like Gae Bolg. B rank Luck or higher is needed.

Though, again, if Zoro were a Saber Servant, I'm sure he'd have a high Luck stat since it's how he won over that shop keep and got Yubashiri. His luck over the curse.

Zoro has supernatural luck btw... Via resisting Curse Manipulation
Resistance to Curse Manipulation (He was able to overcome a cursed sword only by using his own luck, the same cursed sword that bring bad things and mysterious deaths to the people who carry it)

 

[Regidian]

That's assuming she has knowledge of him having foresight and taking that into account at all?? If her mystic eye was that good she wouldn't need Ritsuka's help to bypass Sasaki during the infinity/Zero clash and instead just cut beyond his infinity altogether.

She didn't need ritsuka help? He was just her to see who was the winner.


And infinity litteraly exist to counter musashi, musashi shave all possibilities to one and sasaki make one possibility an infinity.

And already show the scan that she can figt in her head people that she doesn't know off and already know what they can do + her heavenly eyes preco allow her to see the futur so....

 

[SnookB]

Every servant can boost their stat it's on servant physiology and she like always fight people several quicker than her.

She have fight people that do better, scathach see the direct futur and see like litteraly all your life. Yagyuu can see and counter every outcome of a fight.



How can One piece ca'n wank so much a simple ability that just see futur for like 'ot even few sec? It's basically what do instinct rank A bruh

Her boost and his boost are different. She has "higher", he has "far higher" when it comes to his AP amps. And his Ougi/Iai attacks can blitz characters who previously were equal to, if not faster than him.

Has she ever fought Scathach? Or anyone who can see the single outcome of any attack she does? If not, then scaling others' prediction to hers is just headcanon.

 

[Regidian]

Zoro has supernatural luck btw... Via resisting Curse Manipulation
Resistance to Curse Manipulation (He was able to overcome a cursed sword only by using his own luck, the same cursed sword that bring bad things and mysterious deaths to the people who carry it)

Yep for that but musashi eyes is not gae bolg it's not a reverse of causality, it's erasing every possibility except one to make this absolute as you can't change it

 

[Excaliburhuman]

That's assuming she has knowledge of him having foresight and taking that into account at all?? If her mystic eye was that good she wouldn't need Ritsuka's help to bypass Sasaki during the infinity/Zero clash and instead just cut beyond his infinity altogether.

Sasaki's infinity works by creating infinite possibilities iirc which is why there was a stalemate since musashi keeps on cutting those possibility down and sasaki keeps making them.
Why would she need to know he has foresight? she cuts down the possibilities where her attack is blocked or dodged him having foresight changes nothing.

 

[LordGinSama]

Rank A instinct isn't comparable to Kenbunshoku Future Sight, Rank A Instinct works by predicting the Future not literally viewing it like how Kenbunshoku Haki users do. Mind's Eye is a much better comparison to make.

 

[SnookB]

She didn't need ritsuka help? He was just her to see who was the winner.


And infinity litteraly exist to counter musashi, musashi shave all possibilities to one and sasaki make one possibility an infinity.

And already show the scan that she can figt in her head people that she doesn't know off and already know what they can do + her heavenly eyes preco allow her to see the futur so....

Straight from Typemoon >>>> "Soon they reach reach the Realm of Infinity, of Nothingness, an impossible domain where zero and infinity clash endlessly. Musashi and Sasaki would duel each forever if not for Ritsuka determining Musashi as the winner."
Ritsuka command sealed Musashi into a W.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

it's erasing every possibility except one to make this absolute as you can't change it

Why can't you change it.... If you can see that only possibility, Zoro would be able to make a new possibility by viewing that only possibility

 

[Regidian]

Her boost and his boost are different. She has "higher", he has "far higher" when it comes to his AP amps. And his Ougi/Iai attacks can blitz characters who previously were equal to, if not faster than him.

Has she ever fought Scathach? Or anyone who can see the single outcome of any attack she does? If not, then scaling others' prediction to hers is just headcanon.

She fight character who can bliz her too it's the premises of shimousa she weaker than everyone in the beginning.

She have fought scatach in an event yeah. She have fought too lancer of empyrio whose ability is to counter atk of god and every god can see futur

 

[Excaliburhuman]

Why can't you change it.... If you can see that only possibility, Zoro would be able to make a new possibility

Because there is no other possibilities unless Zoro have fate manip or resistance to fate manip he can't make a new possibility

 

[LordGinSama]

He's saying that Zoro's speed amps are capable of blitzing, and while in a really bad state such as Mr 1. Zoro blitzed him with a Iai attack while he was on death's door, I don't recall Musashi ever reacting to a blitz on that level.

 

[SnookB]

Sasaki's infinity works by creating infinite possibilities iirc which is why there was a stalemate since musashi keeps on cutting those possibility down and sasaki keeps making them.
Why would she need to know he has foresight? she cuts down the possibilities where her attack is blocked or dodged him having foresight changes nothing.

Because again, she NEVER FOUGHT ANYONE WITH PRECOGNITION at Zoro's level. We don't KNOW if her shaving down every possibility would actually work against Zoro foreseeing that final possibility and reacting.

And you also have to account for the fact that Haki users can negate space manipulation, which is what her Mystic eye uses.

Every "Final decision" she comes to would end up with Zoro creating ANOTHER one because of his precognition. That's why I said 182219 replies ago that it just boils down to their AP and techniques, because he has 2 counters for her eye, and she has a counter for his Kenbunshoku. It boils down to skill and AP.

 

[LordGinSama]

Because there is no other possibilities unless Zoro have fate manip or resistance to fate manip he can't make a new possibility

So she's destroying all the previous possibilities? I again haven't seen any proof of her rushing battles with her hax especially against skilled opponents.


Also if she needed to resort to using hax wouldn't that take away a lot from her skill? She couldn't best them in a clash of blades so she basically cheated more or less, that doesn't make her skill feats look all too good. which is why the Chad Sasaki will always be the better sswordsman

 

[TauanVictor]

Voting Zoro FRA

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Because there is no other possibilities unless Zoro have fate manip or resistance to fate manip he can't make a new possibility

If you can remove every possibility and there is only one and Zoro before hand can see the only possibility he would make a new possibility which counters it. Also does she start with that?

 

[Regidian]

Anyways in first her eyes was even able to bypass isshin Knowledge of Respect and Harmony who makes his attacks "unreadable" and prevents his opponents from ever analyzing or getting used to his attacks,

And like i tell before summer 4 show that heavenly eyes have a way more straightforward preco.

Upon execution, her "Heavenly Eye" is honed to the extreme to see through the enemy's various actions and defenses to annihilate them.
Since it sees through every defense within visual range, it affects not just an individual but entire groups as well.

 

[Excaliburhuman]

So she's destroying all the previous possibilities? I again haven't seen any proof of her rushing battles with her hax especially against skilled opponents.


Also if she needed to resort to using hax wouldn't that take away a lot from her skill? She couldn't best them in a clash of blades so she basically cheated more or less, that doesn't make her skill feats look all too good. which is why the Chad Sasaki will always be the better sswordsman

I don't really don't care who wins and who has better skill (because debating which fictional character has better skill is some of the dumbest thing I have ever seen) I am just confused as to why people think precog can counter fate manip.

Because again, she NEVER FOUGHT ANYONE WITH PRECOGNITION at Zoro's level. We don't KNOW if her shaving down every possibility would actually work against Zoro foreseeing that final possibility and reacting.

And you also have to account for the fact that Haki users can negate space manipulation, which is what her Mystic eye uses.

Every "Final decision" she comes to would end up with Zoro creating ANOTHER one because of his precognition. That's why I said 182219 replies ago that it just boils down to their AP and techniques, because he has 2 counters for her eye, and she has a counter for his Kenbunshoku. It boils down to skill and AP.

Like I said there is no possibilities where he does not get hit its what fate manip is. He can't dodge or block it since those possibilities are cut down.
Servants also resist space manip so not that useful.
Precog is not a counter to fate manip.

If you can remove every possibility and there is only one and Zoro before hand can see the only possibility he would make a new possibility which counters it. Also does she start with that?

I need proof that he can counter fate manip like that.

 

[Regidian]

Because again, she NEVER FOUGHT ANYONE WITH PRECOGNITION at Zoro's level. We don't KNOW if her shaving down every possibility would actually work against Zoro foreseeing that final possibility and reacting.

And you also have to account for the fact that Haki users can negate space manipulation, which is what her Mystic eye uses.

Every "Final decision" she comes to would end up with Zoro creating ANOTHER one because of his precognition. That's why I said 182219 replies ago that it just boils down to their AP and techniques, because he has 2 counters for her eye, and she has a counter for his Kenbunshoku. It boils down to skill and AP.

Bruh are you really telling that kenbunshoku now negate fate manipulation?


Every servant with MR can negate and resist space manipulation + her space manip by her eyes are like tier 1.


Zoro don't have fate manipulation he can't create another possibility. Even if he say foresse what she do he can't change it because it doesn't exist another possibility.

 

[Regidian]

Gin at least correct them for that bruh

 

[SnookB]

Making one's attack "unreadable" is the lowest form of Kenbunshoku counter in One Piece. That works on Mantra, which is far inferior to the current level of Kenbunshoku users as far as we know.
You're mention summer Berserker Musashi and Zero Musashi things when again, it's pre-zero. I agree if this was Zero Musashi then she'd win by a landslide.

 

[Regidian]

He's saying that Zoro's speed amps are capable of blitzing, and while in a really bad state such as Mr 1. Zoro blitzed him with a Iai attack while he was on death's door, I don't recall Musashi ever reacting to a blitz on that level.

Well she have not if we don't account yagyuu yeah