Santōryū vs Niten Ichi-ryū

[Regidian]

Clearly you don't understand what Kenbunshoku is if you're calling it "Only prediction". Every capable fighter in One Piece can predict trajectory. Kenbunshoku is quite literally seeing the future/Sensing the future. In Zoro's case, he sees the outcome that your final decision leads to, rather than predicting what you intend to do before you even decide it.

I mean it's you who doesn't understand that i have tell you that musashi have already deal with guy who does that? Scathach can litteraly see the futur in combat and years after

 

[SnookB]

Also "all possible outcomes." is vague as ****. Said outcomes don't have an actual number behind them, unless every Servant has like infinite numbers of attacks they can use. Movements are limited.

It's stated as thousands, but even then it's less precognition and more analysis. It's like Garou seeing King in the street, predicting dozens of outcomes, but gets kicked by Saitama instead. Her eye isn't future seeing, it's predicting possibilities.
And again, it's used far more for offense. Giving it to her based on defense sounds headcanon-y when it's literally described as the ability to reach what the user deems the perfect way of attacking.

It's just in fate possibility are not obligatory outcome

So you're saying that what her eye foresees is possibility, correct? That doesn't make it inferior to Kenbunshoku foreseeing the next definitive attack based on your emotions and intent? There isn't a single instance of it being countered unless it's by other Kenbunshoku users who see the one definitive thing you're about to do.

Again, you're ENTIRELY mixing up future sight with analytical prediction, which is what her ability (and every mind's eye) is.

 

[Regidian]

Mind going over this again? I can't quite understand what your saying here no offense.

Works the same in One Piece, the future can always be changed by the actions of others as seen with Katakuri and Sanji using FS. Katakuri saw what Sanji was going to do and saw himself killing Sanji then Sanji tricked it by dodging with his own future sight.

Yeah you tell that every outcome was vague because no number, i tell you that suigetsu work like infinity, it's just that infinity is based on attacking with infinity possibility when suigetsu it's to counter every outcome.

If outcome doesn't have a clear number is because a possibility is not obligatory an outcome and so you don't have infinity outcome

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean it's you who doesn't understand that i have tell you that musashi have already deal with guy who does that? Scathach can litteraly see the futur in combat and years after

Musashi and Lancer never fought although I'd pay to see a wrestling match between em. But like we said above, the distance you see into the future isn't the only thing that we look at when deciding what Prediction is better.

 

[SnookB]

Seeing every "possible" future vs Seeing the future that is about to occur for sure are two different things entirely- Again, everything you named sounds like analytical prediction than actual foresight.

 

[LordGinSama]

It's stated as thousands, but even then it's less precognition and more analysis. It's like Garou seeing King in the street, predicting dozens of outcomes, but gets kicked by Saitama instead. Her eye isn't future seeing, it's predicting possibilities.

Yeah but that's still vague as we don't know if it's movements, attacks or whatever she's predicting or if it's even linear. There's a lot that you can get from "thousands." and what kind of attacks?

And again, it's used far more for offense. Giving it to her based on defense sounds headcanon-y when it's literally described as the ability to reach what the user deems the perfect way of attacking.

Fair.

 

[Rez]

Idk what you guys are arguing about heaven's eye aren't precog they are probability/fate manipulation they make it so among the infinite existing possibilities only the ones that are ideal for Musashi comes to be

 

[SnookB]

Yeah but that's still vague as we don't know if it's movements, attacks or whatever she's predicting or if it's even linear. There's a lot that you can get from "thousands." and what kind of attacks?

I'm assuming it doesn't refer to "possible techniques" as much as just general combat. Like how they'll swing their blade next, or if they're try an feint, etc- (If it was for actual named techniques only it'd make no sense for it to be thousands, since servants have 10 skills at most-)

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah you tell that every outcome was vague because no number, i tell you that suigetsu work like infinity, it's just that infinity is based on attacking with infinity possibility when suigetsu it's to counter every outcome.

Which again depends on the opponent's and the amount of attacks they have at their disposal. That could range from 2 attacks, to thousands to infinite, all of which are predicting every outcome that's possible for the opponent.

If outcome doesn't have a clear number is because a possibility is not obligatory an outcome and so you don't have infinity outcome

Outcomes have a pretty clear number, again like I said that depends on the opponent who's being predicted.

 

[XDragnoir]

Seeing every "possible" future vs Seeing the future that is about to occur for sure are two different things entirely- Again, everything you named sounds like analytical prediction than actual foresight.

The description in her profile straight up says it narrows infinite futures to a single one? If you don't agree with it being Future Sight that's okay, but what part of that is analytical prediction?

 

[Regidian]

It's stated as thousands, but even then it's less precognition and more analysis. It's like Garou seeing King in the street, predicting dozens of outcomes, but gets kicked by Saitama instead. Her eye isn't future seeing, it's predicting possibilities.
And again, it's used far more for offense. Giving it to her based on defense sounds headcanon-y when it's literally described as the ability to reach what the user deems the perfect way of attacking.


So you're saying that what her eye foresees is possibility, correct? That doesn't make it inferior to Kenbunshoku foreseeing the next definitive attack based on your emotions and intent? There isn't a single instance of it being countered unless it's by other Kenbunshoku users who see the one definitive thing you're about to do.

Again, you're ENTIRELY mixing up future sight with analytical prediction, which is what her ability (and every mind's eye) is.

You confond thing it's musashi nugestu that talk about thousand possibility not yagyu suigetsu... Not even being capable to read the difference between her technique and heavenly eyes is weird. And her heavenly eyes is stated as seing infinity possibly not only thousand. And she doesn't only predict a combat with one variant, she would be dead by Ivan if that was the case.

Talk about headcannon when i litteraly show a scan where she use it for defense, it's not even laughable....



Again what you tell she can do it + It's on servant physiology that every servant can predict thing based on emotion and intent.


"At that time, the "Heavenly Eye" that were honed to the utmost limits can see through the enemies' each and every defensive actions, and demolish them."

 

[Rez]

Outcomes have a pretty clear number, again like I said that depends on the opponent who's being predicted.

From her fgo profile:
Heavenly Eye is said to be the power to achieve one's goals. It's an act of resolve to do something, then putting your entire body and soul into achieving it. One could say that it's an act of putting your entire self and existence into your gaze, and projecting it towards your goal.
In Musashi's case, Heavenly Eye is used only to wield her blade on the spot. For example, if she decides to cut her opponent's right arm, she'll do whatever it takes to sever it. Her strike will be optimized, bending time and space toward achieving this goal.
The power to narrow down all potential options for achieving a goal into a single eventuality. It could also be described as a very special type of Mystic Eye, which narrows an infinite number of possible futures down to only one.

 

[Regidian]

Musashi and Lancer never fought although I'd pay to see a wrestling match between em. But like we said above, the distance you see into the future isn't the only thing that we look at when deciding what Prediction is better.

Actually they have fight in a event, but i mean it's not just about the distance for her you should know

 

[LordGinSama]

Idk what you guys are arguing about heaven's eye aren't precog they are probability/fate manipulation they make it so among the infinite existing possibilities only the ones that are ideal for Musashi comes to be

This also. The eyes aren't precognition but rather Fate Manipulation.

I'm assuming it doesn't refer to "possible techniques" as much as just general combat. Like how they'll swing their blade next, or if they're try an feint, etc- (If it was for actual named techniques only it'd make no sense for it to be thousands, since servants have 10 skills at most-)

If it's for thousands of standard attacks then I'm still skeptical of that, I doubt Servant's can attack you in thousands of different patterns and if they can then why is Musashi's reactions not calculated and on the profile? That's a shit ton of information she'd need to process instantly, Itachi has a similar feat and it got FTL.


Aside from that obvious issue, I think it also depends on the Servant in question. In canon what Servant's has she fought?

 

[SnookB]

From her fgo profile:
Heavenly Eye is said to be the power to achieve one's goals. It's an act of resolve to do something, then putting your entire body and soul into achieving it. One could say that it's an act of putting your entire self and existence into your gaze, and projecting it towards your goal.
In Musashi's case, Heavenly Eye is used only to wield her blade on the spot. For example, if she decides to cut her opponent's right arm, she'll do whatever it takes to sever it. Her strike will be optimized, bending time and space toward achieving this goal.
The power to narrow down all potential options for achieving a goal into a single eventuality. It could also be described as a very special type of Mystic Eye, which narrows an infinite number of possible futures down to only one.

And again- if/When her ideal outcome is reached, then his Kenbunshoku would just foresee her making said move. Unless she magically blitzes him. Which isn't happening with or without speed equalization.

The description in her profile straight up says it narrows infinite futures to a single one? If you don't agree with it being Future Sight that's okay, but what part of that is analytical prediction?

That's not what I was addressing. I was talking about characters' ability to predict possible future events and whatnot. (Mind's eye, rather)

Assuming she just lands her perfect hit on him is strange because she's never fought a precog user on Zoro's level with his Kenbunshoku.

 

[Regidian]

Which again depends on the opponent's and the amount of attacks they have at their disposal. That could range from 2 attacks, to thousands to infinite, all of which are predicting every outcome that's possible for the opponent.

Outcomes have a pretty clear number, again like I said that depends on the opponent who's being predicted.

I mean suigetsu can work on infinity sasaki and his infinity and had work on musashi and her heavenly eyes so i don't understand what you want to tell

 

[Rez]

And again- if/When her ideal outcome is reached, then his Kenbunshoku would just foresee her making said move. Unless she magically blitzes him. Which isn't happening with or without speed equalization.

It's not precog it's fate manip once the outcome has been reached its done you can't counter fate manip with precog

 

[Regidian]

And again- if/When her ideal outcome is reached, then his Kenbunshoku would just foresee her making said move. Unless she magically blitzes him. Which isn't happening with or without speed equalization.

That's not what I was addressing. I was talking about characters' ability to predict possible future events and whatnot. (Mind's eye, rather)

Assuming she just lands her perfect hit on him is strange because she's never fought a precog user on Zoro's level with his Kenbunshoku.

Everything you described as kenbunshoku is something that every swordmaster do, sensing intent, emotion, danger, seing their soul is something they do

 

[XDragnoir]

Assuming she just lands her perfect hit on him is strange because she's never fought a precog user on Zoro's level with his Kenbunshoku.

She uses fate hax as well as spacetime hax to make a single future possible, unless Zoro has dealt with that i don't even know how he would counter, it's basically a swordswoman version of Almighty, Kenbu isn't saving him here.

 

[LordGinSama]

From her fgo profile:
Heavenly Eye is said to be the power to achieve one's goals. It's an act of resolve to do something, then putting your entire body and soul into achieving it. One could say that it's an act of putting your entire self and existence into your gaze, and projecting it towards your goal.
In Musashi's case, Heavenly Eye is used only to wield her blade on the spot. For example, if she decides to cut her opponent's right arm, she'll do whatever it takes to sever it. Her strike will be optimized, bending time and space toward achieving this goal.
The power to narrow down all potential options for achieving a goal into a single eventuality. It could also be described as a very special type of Mystic Eye, which narrows an infinite number of possible futures down to only one.

So she has infinite reaction speed as well? And how many times is it stated to be infinite? One singular statement doesn't mean much.

It's not precog it's fate manip once the outcome has been reached its done you can't counter fate manip with precog

Zoro could technically still counter with his predictions before she does that, and like I said above I don't think she's going to resort to haxxing as opposed to dragging it out for the fun. I really do think these two would want to test the other's skills with blades.

 

[Regidian]

This also. The eyes aren't precognition but rather Fate Manipulation.

If it's for thousands of standard attacks then I'm still skeptical of that, I doubt Servant's can attack you in thousands of different patterns and if they can then why is Musashi's reactions not calculated and on the profile? That's a shit ton of information she'd need to process instantly, Itachi has a similar feat and it got FTL.


Aside from that obvious issue, I think it also depends on the Servant in question. In canon what Servant's has she fought?

In pre zero, she have fought yagyuu who was infinity speed with suigetsu, she have fought every servant of shimousa

 

[Regidian]

So she has infinite reaction speed as well? And how many times is it stated to be infinite? One singular statement doesn't mean much.

Zoro could technically still counter with his predictions before she does that, and like I said above I don't think she's going to resort to haxxing as opposed to dragging it out for the fun. I really do think these two would want to test the other's skills with blades.

I mean she have fought yagyu when he was using suigetsu. Even before reaching her zero

Saber (Munenori Yagyu)

Saber Empireo is a Saber-class Servant who appears during the Shimosa Sub-Singularity. Saber's True Name is Munenori Yagyū (柳生 宗矩, Yagyū Munemori) with his full name being Yagyū Tajima-no-Kami Munenori (柳生但馬守宗矩, Director Yagyū Munemori of the Tajima Province) , a famed "Sword Saint" and one of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean suigetsu can work on infinity sasaki and his infinity and had work on musashi and her heavenly eyes so i don't understand what you want to tell

That's Infinity Sasaki tho isn't this Base Musashi? Pretty sure only Zero Musashi fought Infinity Sasaki.

 

[Rez]

So she has infinite reaction speed as well? And how many times is it stated to be infinite? One singular statement doesn't mean much.

Zoro could technically still counter with his predictions before she does that, and like I said above I don't think she's going to resort to haxxing as opposed to dragging it out for the fun. I really do think these two would want to test the other's skills with blades.

Musashi's heaven's eye's shaves the infinite possibilities done to one if she wants to cut someone's hand's then their doesn't exist a future where she doesn't accomplish it
Countering fate Manipulation with precog is not possible

 

[Regidian]

And rez heavenly eyes have preco. It's stated in her summer form. + She was able to see the infinity possibility of ivan in lb1, it's her she see that she couldn't kill hil normaly

"At that time, the "Heavenly Eye" that were honed to the utmost limits can see through the enemies' each and every defensive actions, and demolish them."


And her eyes are stated to be a better version of instinct and mind eye

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean she have fought yagyu when he was using suigetsu. Even before reaching her zero

Saber (Munenori Yagyu)

Saber Empireo is a Saber-class Servant who appears during the Shimosa Sub-Singularity. Saber's True Name is Munenori Yagyū (柳生 宗矩, Yagyū Munemori) with his full name being Yagyū Tajima-no-Kami Munenori (柳生但馬守宗矩, Director Yagyū Munemori of the Tajima Province) , a famed "Sword Saint" and one of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is Pre Zero Musashi so there's no scaling to Suigetsu Yagyu or Infinity Sasaki. All of their bases are MHS+

Musashi's heaven's eye's shaves the infinite possibilities done to one if she wants to cut someone's hand's then their doesn't exist a future where she doesn't accomplish it
Countering fate Manipulation with precog is not possible

I think you misunderstood what I said, I never said it would counter it while it's taking effect but before Musashi gets the chance to use it. I.E, Zoro predicts what's she's about to do in advance and counters accordingly. Not that she'd cut, he predicts and then counters.

 

[Rez]

And rez heavenly eyes have preco. It's stated in her summer form.

Yeah but that's not their main gimmick. Their most important ability is to remove all but one possible outcome (that favors Musashi) from existence

 

[Regidian]

This is Pre Zero Musashi so there's no scaling to Suigetsu Yagyu or Infinity Sasaki. All of their bases are MHS+

I think you misunderstood what I said, I never said it would counter it while it's taking effect but before Musashi gets the chance to use it. I.E, Zoro predicts what's she's about to do in advance and counters accordingly. Not that she'd cut, he predicts and then counters.

Pre zero musashi fought suigetsu yagyuu..... It's litteraly what i tell she enter in zero after the fight.

 

[Regidian]

Yeah but that's not their main gimmick. Their most important ability is to remove all but one possible outcome (that favors Musashi) from existence

Yeah but doesn't change they can do that too

 

[LordGinSama]

I still want to see evidence of Musashi right off the bat using her fate hax against another swordsman instead of enjoying the fight. Hell I can remember several instances when she doesn't even use them in combat to hax her opponent's.

 

[Rez]

I think you misunderstood what I said, I never said it would counter it while it's taking effect but before Musashi gets the chance to use it. I.E, Zoro predicts what's she's about to do in advance and counters accordingly. Not that she'd cut, he predicts and then counters.

This would have been a possibility if it took her some considerable amount of time to use it or if she couldn't use it in the middle of combat or if zoro could have one shotted her but considering this isn't the case I am voting Musashi

 

[Regidian]

This is Pre Zero Musashi so there's no scaling to Suigetsu Yagyu or Infinity Sasaki. All of their bases are MHS+

I think you misunderstood what I said, I never said it would counter it while it's taking effect but before Musashi gets the chance to use it. I.E, Zoro predicts what's she's about to do in advance and counters accordingly. Not that she'd cut, he predicts and then counters.

She had fight yagyuu ans other preco user servant who was doing that so i don't see how it would work here

 

[Regidian]

I still want to see evidence of Musashi right off the bat using her fate hax against another swordsman instead of enjoying the fight. Hell I can remember several instances when she doesn't even use them in combat to hax her opponent's.

Shimousa ? I mean she do that like all the time in this singularity even in summer 4. Her eyes are always active it's not a ability she can't not use when she want

 

[Regidian]

Yagyuu suigetsu is litteraly predict what the other do, being a step ahead above every action and counter them as he already know.

 

[Regidian]

But well need to leave because of that i haven't revised for my examen and not have do my dissert so bye lol

 

[LordGinSama]

Pre zero musashi fought suigetsu yagyuu..... It's litteraly what i tell she enter in zero after the fight.

Pre Musashi is MHS and 6-C and her profile makes no mention of fighting a High 6-C with infinite speed. You'd need to make a CRT for that otherwise don't use it. Not saying it's not legit but it isn't on the profile.

This would have been a possibility if it took her some considerable amount of time to use it or if she couldn't use it in the middle of combat or if zoro could have one shotted her but considering this isn't the case I am voting Musashi

What does she need to do to do so?

 

[Regidian]

Pre Musashi is MHS and 6-C and her profile makes no mention of fighting a High 6-C with infinite speed. You'd need to make a CRT for that otherwise don't use it. Not saying it's not legit but it isn't on the profile.

What does she need to do to do so?

It's impossible to not be legit as she unlock zero by fighting him lol, but well will make the crt later if really needed

 

[SnookB]

Yagyuu suigetsu is litteraly predict what the other do, being a step ahead above every action and counter them as he already know.

You keep repeating "predict", and the source says "predict". This automatically makes it inferior to Kenbunshoku.
Every example you gave is characters predicting every course of action and choosing a decision to overcome it. Zoro's Kenbunshoku bypasses all of that and foresees the final decision altogether. Again- Prediction =/= Foresight

 

[LordGinSama]

Zoro also has 3 forms of Prediction without Kenbunshoku Haki so with Kenbunshoku Haki he'd have 5 types all together.


Breath based Prediction (This one is ootent as **** as it works on intimate objects.)

Trajectory based Prediction

Mental images

And 2 from Kenbunshoku, Anticipation of intent and mind reading. However apparently Servant's can't be mind read.

 

[Regidian]

You keep repeating "predict", and the source says "predict". This automatically makes it inferior to Kenbunshoku.
Every example you gave is characters predicting every course of action and choosing a decision to overcome it. Zoro's Kenbunshoku bypasses all of that and foresees the final decision altogether. Again- Prediction =/= Foresight

He predict them by foreshight it i mean you want hil to predict how? Bruh

And i have tell predict because he have tell predict lol

He litteraly see in the futur every possible outcome that can happen and counter every of them what you even try to tell? Zoro doesn't bypass it and zoro kenbunshoku can't bypass it as it will be the only one existing

Using this technique, he is capable of accounting for all possible outcomes of a situation, and staying a step ahead of all of them. It is so absolute that Musashi had to create a completely new possibility to manage to bypass this technique.


+ Already tell that she have fight people that see direvtly the futur. And like rez tell he wouldn't be able to do anything of she use her eyes as if she use the only possibility where she win, it mean that it will be the only thing it happen.

"Musashi's heaven's eye's shaves the infinite possibilities done to one if she wants to cut someone's hand's then their doesn't exist a future where she doesn't accomplish it
Countering fate Manipulation with precog is not possible"