Sans (Undertale) VS Steve (Minecraft) (Grace)

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Isn't this a blitz?

The op keeps switching the rules midargument. I recommend reading the thread instead of skimming.

Plus Sans still negates dura, that's how he is able to beat Chara with the locket, Sans always does the same damage against his opponents while, he would just do half a heart damage per second plus karma, that and the speed advantage makes this a stomp

Sans does the same damage to his opponents because he only does 1 point of damage, the durability negation apparently comes from the whole soul manipulation that the entire undertale cast has. That's not the reason Chara was beated.

Plus why is it argued that Sans dura negating is because of speed?

when was that stated?

 

[Theuser789]

Sans does the same damage to his opponents because he only does 1 point of damage, the durability negation apparently comes from the whole soul manipulation that the entire undertale cast has. That's not the reason Chara was beated.

No, I have been in other Sans threads and Sans still has dura negating even without soul hax due to he completely bypassing the DEF stat in the game, that's what most supporters agreed and that's how he kills Chara in seconds even though their DEF is far higher than Sans's attacks, pretty sure supporters also said in this thread

Idrc about the match tho, I just wanted to know why a "straight foward" match had so many replys

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

due to he completely bypassing the DEF statbin the game

They're probably referring to the KARMA effect, which is like a poison.

 

[ShionAH]

They're probably referring to the KARMA effect, which is like a poison.

Its KR and no sans also ignores durability himself with no invisibility frames (I think)

 

[Theuser789]

They're probably referring to the KARMA effect, which is like a poison.

No, I was there, it was explicitly NOT Karma, it was because he ALWAYS did 1 damage per frame

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

No, I was there, it was explicitly NOT Karma, it was because he ALWAYS did 1 damage per frame

lol what? Are you serious?

"DF is subtracted from the damage output of the attacking party. However, it cannot lower the damage that the protagonist takes to a value less than 1."

You got jebaited my guy. It's purely game mechanics that the minimum damage dealt to the player is always 1 point. Just like it is in Terraria.

 

[ShionAH]

lol what? Are you serious?

"DF is subtracted from the damage output of the attacking party. However, it cannot lower the damage that the protagonist takes to a value less than 1."

You got jebaited my guy. It's purely game mechanics that the minimum damage dealt to the player is always 1 point. Just like it is in Terraria.

I am pretty sure in other battles you get 10 dmg and go invincible for 5 seconds but in sans fight he hits you 1 dmg PER FRAME

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That's not durability negation though. vsbattles treats INV as intangibility, that would just be intangibility negation if anything.​

 

[Theuser789]

Inv is invulnerability now, just read Frisk's profile

I am serious and I wasn't tricked, using something from the Undertale wikia isn't the way, that's talking about how the game is coded, as seem with Asriel and Mettaton zero damage is a thing

That's why Sans still has dura negating and that's why that's accepted, don't be stubborn

 

[Theuser789]

Also Sans always doing 1 damage is dura negating, he does the same amount no matter the durability, that's the definition of negating dura, plus gameplay mechanics are canon in verse anyways

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

The minimum damage enemies can do to the player is 1 point of damage, not 0. That's not an example of durability negation, that's game mechanics of an attack always doing damage no matter what. That's the reason I linked the wiki, you guys are making durability negation out of a game mechanic.

Also, that's not being stubborn for not knowing that intangibility was changed to invulnerability. I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of Sans having intangible attacks in his profile, for still being able to damage Frisk. This is just invulnerability negation then, nothing about the frame attacks actually negating durability, especially when the attacks are supposedly done on the soul. Y'know, the true source of the dura negation for the undertale verse.

 

[ShionAH]

The minimum damage enemies can do to the player is 1 point of damage, not 0. That's not an example of durability negation, that's game mechanics of an attack always doing damage no matter what. That's the reason I linked the wiki, you guys are making durability negation out of a game mechanic.

Also, that's not being stubborn for not knowing that intangibility was changed to invulnerability. I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of Sans having intangible attacks in his profile, for still being able to damage Frisk. This is just invulnerability negation then, nothing about the frame attacks actually negating durability, especially when the attacks are supposedly done on the soul. Y'know, the true source of the dura negation for the undertale verse.

But no matter what you wear sans still does insane damage isn’t that durability negation?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

But no matter what you wear sans still does insane damage isn’t that durability negation?

actually, no. Most of what you wear has nothing to do with affecting your invulnerability frames. The few items that do increase your invulnerability frames actually does decrease the rate that Sans's attacks work (cloudy glasses and torn notebook), even affecting KARMA.

 

[ShionAH]

actually, no. Most of what you wear has nothing to do with affecting your invulnerability frames. The few items that do increase your invulnerability frames actually does decrease the rate that Sans's attacks work (cloudy glasses and torn notebook), even affecting KARMA.

Sans does 1 dmg per frame no matter what you wear
Isn’t that how it works?

 

[Theuser789]

The minimum damage enemies can do to the player is 1 point of damage, not 0. That's not an example of durability negation, that's game mechanics of an attack always doing damage no matter what. That's the reason I linked the wiki, you guys are making durability negation out of a game mechanic.

Also, that's not being stubborn for not knowing that intangibility was changed to invulnerability. I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of Sans having intangible attacks in his profile, for still being able to damage Frisk. This is just invulnerability negation then, nothing about the frame attacks actually negating durability, especially when the attacks are supposedly done on the soul. Y'know, the true source of the dura negation for the undertale verse.

I wasn't calling you stubborn for not knowing a profile was changed, I was calling you stubborn for refusing points about things you don't know, you are not understading my points and making counter arguments based on things I never said like saying Sans negates dura because he negates inv

Anyways as I said that's how the game is coded, not how it canonically is, Sans CHECK message says he does one damage, showing that it isn't just a gameplay mechanic even though those are canon, and again in verse a large enough gap makes you do zero damage, progamming isn't a counter argument because you aren't supposed to fight anyone except Sans once you get the locket

 

[Theuser789]

Sans does 1 dmg per frame no matter what you wear
Isn’t that how it works?

Sans CHECK text also says he does one damage, meaning it can't be just a gameplay mechanic, even though those are canon anyways in almost all aspects

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That's not even the definition of stubborn.

Nothing in the game canonically states Sans negates durability. Sans's check message says he does one damage because he's the weakest monster. You're taking things out of context. "The easiest enemy. Can only deal 1 damage." Instead of seeing the obvious that "the context implies he's the weakest because he can only deal one point of damage", you interpret this message as "he can only deal one damage because he negates durability".

In-verse, the only time you do zero damage to an enemy is against ghosts and Asriel, who has infinite stats. No one else. Not even Omega Flowey.

When you wear just the Torn Notebook, you ignore damage once every five frames. When you wear the Cloudy Glasses, every four frames. When wearing both, every three frames. I do not understand how you are making this so difficult to comprehend.

 

[ShionAH]

I wasn't calling you stubborn for not knowing a profile was changed, I was calling you stubborn for refusing points about things you don't know, you are not understading my points and making counter arguments based on things I never said like saying Sans negates dura because he negates inv

Anyways as I said that's how the game is coded, not how it canonically is, Sans CHECK message says he does one damage, showing that it isn't just a gameplay mechanic even though those are canon, and again in verse a large enough gap makes you do zero damage, progamming isn't a counter argument because you aren't supposed to fight anyone except Sans once you get the locket

Agreed

 

[ShionAH]

Nothing in the game canonically states Sans negates durability. Sans's check message says he does one damage because he's the weakest monster. You're taking things out of context. "The easiest enemy. Can only deal 1 damage." Instead of seeing the obvious that "the context implies he's the weakest because he can only deal one point of damage", you interpret this message as "he can only deal one damage because he negates durability".

He can only do 1 damage but he does constant and also ignores your armour if I am correct
And what are you talking about you thought it would say “Sans ignores durability btw” Toby obv made it as to troll the players

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

He can only do 1 damage but he does constant and also ignores your armour if I am correct

Dude I explained like twice how invulnerability frames work, explained how the invulnerability increasing items slow down Sans's damage, and explained why the minimum damage the player can take in the game is 1 point, I have no clue how else to convince you.

 

[ShionAH]

Dude I explained like twice how invulnerability frames work, explained how the invulnerability increasing items slow down Sans's damage, and explained why the minimum damage the player can take in the game is 1 point, I have no clue how else to convince you.

Well no since you can also take no damage if you have superior durability (In asriel fight shows it) It just says miss since they are so strong you have no power to even hit them and you deal 0 damage
And where did in the game it says the lowest dmg you can take is 1?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Dude, you're not paying attention to my comments.

In-verse, the only time you do zero damage to an enemy is against ghosts and Asriel, who has infinite stats. No one else. Not even Omega Flowey.

^ Again, I've stated all of this earlier

And where did in the game it says the lowest dmg you can take is 1?

It's not stated, it's shown. Tell me one time you've ever taken less than one damage from anything in Undertale.

 

[ShionAH]

Dude, you're not paying attention to my comments.

I did actually

^ Again, I've stated all of this earlier

That just shows you do 0 damage to superior enemy

It's not stated, it's shown. Tell me one time you've ever taken less than one damage from anything in Undertale.

Its not shown since there no info saying lowest dmg is 1 and we also didn’t fight all of monsters maybe theres some that has like maybe 2 dmg and actually attacks unlike monster kid then we would see with strongest armour how much dmg they do

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

In-verse, the only time you do zero damage to an enemy is against ghosts and Asriel, who has infinite stats. No one else. Not even Omega Flowey.

And Mettaton

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That just shows you do 0 damage to superior enemy

This is an enemy with canonically INFINITE STATS. That's not a fair comparison.

Its not shown since there no info saying lowest dmg is 1 and we also didn’t fight all of monsters maybe theres some that has like maybe 2 dmg and actually attacks unlike monster kid then we would see with strongest armour how much dmg they do

The gameplay shows it. You can't just say my argument is wrong by using monsters we haven't battled, that's purely headcanon.

And Mettaton

Even using box Metatton, it doesn't make a reliable argument to the current discussion as you're comparing it to the Locket's defense points of 99 vs 255.

 

[Theuser789]

Nothing in the game canonically states Sans negates durability. Sans's check message says he does one damage because he's the weakest monster. You're taking things out of context. "The easiest enemy. Can only deal 1 damage." Instead of seeing the obvious that "the context implies he's the weakest because he can only deal one point of damage", you interpret this message as "he can only deal one damage because he negates durability".

That doesn't debunk anything I said, stop acting as if I can't understand basic setences, your entire argument in this paragraph is the assumption that it can't be both, Sans does deal 1 damage because he is weak, but he will always deal 1 damage, they aren't contradictory, , your attitude of "it's obvious MY point is correct" is what I was talking about on being stubborn, a real discussion is about learning

In-verse, the only time you do zero damage to an enemy is against ghosts and Asriel, who has infinite stats. No one else. Not even Omega Flowey.

Except Mettaton who has a DEF of "255" and he isn't a ghost, plus Frisk currently does scale to Flowey via dealing one damage, even if I think that's wrong

To add Chara can fight Undying (who has 99 DEF) at LV 10 with the dress, making Locket Chara upscale from that

When you wear just the Torn Notebook, you ignore damage once every five frames. When you wear the Cloudy Glasses, every four frames. When wearing both, every three frames. I do not understand how you

And I do NOT understand how someone can be so arrogant when he isn't even understading the arguments of the opposition, when I NEVER argued that Sans dura negating is related to his inv negation, this is the THIRD time I am repeating this

This is my last reply because I am tired of arguing with someone so arrogant yet that can't even understand basic points of his opposition, about a topic mostly unrelated to the thread, it's a waste of my time, like this reply

 

[ElixirBlue]

I do agree Sans has Durability Negation.

 

[ShionAH]

I do agree Sans has Durability Negation.

Can I ask something

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That doesn't debunk anything I said, stop acting as if I can't understand basic setences, your entire argument in this paragraph is the assumption that it can't be both, Sans does deal 1 damage because he is weak, but he will always deal 1 damage, they aren't contradictory, , your attitude of "it's obvious MY point is correct" is what I was talking about on being stubborn, a real discussion is about learning

Dude that doesn't even disprove my argument, all it does is say Sans can only do 1 point of damage. Me saying you are stretching the definition of the statement is not being stubborn, your job is to prove that it's what you're claiming it to be. Multiple times in this thread I have changed my stances on things based on what I've learned about how Undertale's abilities are interpreted. Unlike the others, your argument about this is not a good one to convince anybody.

Except Mettaton who has a DEF of "255" and he isn't a ghost, plus Frisk currently does scale to Flowey via dealing one damage, even if I think that's wrong

To add Chara can fight Undying (who has 99 DEF) at LV 10 with the dress, making Locket Chara upscale from that

I've already cleared up the issue of Mettaton earlier by saying that even with taking Mettaton into account, it's not a reliable comparison as his DEF is 255 while Chara's locket is 99.

And I do NOT understand how someone can be so arrogant when he isn't even understading the arguments of the opposition, when I NEVER argued that Sans dura negating is related to his inv negation, this is the THIRD time I am repeating this

okay, I'm just gonna copypaste the conversation about this then, because durability negation referring to invulnerability frames has been a topic introduced by you, not me.

Sans still has dura negating even without soul hax due to he completely bypassing the DEF stat in the game,

They're probably referring to the KARMA effect, which is like a poison.

No, I was there, it was explicitly NOT Karma, it was because he ALWAYS did 1 damage per frame

Sans always doing 1 damage is dura negating, he does the same amount no matter the durability

How can you sit there and tell me you weren't arguing about dura negating being related to his INV negation when a large chunk of the argument was about how he always did damage each frame? You're ignoring half of your argument, and then you call me stubborn for it. The INV frames do no increase Frisk's durability, they grant Frisk invulnerability, which you consistently say that Sans can still damage regardless. That's why I said you're referring to invulnerability negation, but no, you kept talking about how it was durability negation.
And no, this wasn't the only topic we've had. There were times we were both discussing invulnerability frames and points of damage, so they were two separate arguments, not one muddled.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I do agree Sans has Durability Negation.

the topic isn't just about if Sans has durability negation or not. They're talking about what the dura negation applies to.

We all seem to agree the soulhax that undertale has negates durability and that KARMA also negs durability, the argument has been hovering around invulnerability frames and the fact that the player does not recieve any less than 1 point of damage from any attack in the game. This is basically the difference between saying San's dura neg kills slowly or nigh instantaneously, which is ultimately the deciding factor of the matchup.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I've already cleared up the issue of Mettaton earlier by saying that even with taking Mettaton into account, it's not a reliable comparison as his DEF is 255 while Chara's locket is 99.

Well, then I don’t agree with this part.

User brought up Metaton unable of taking damage by Frisk with a number value to mean, defense does matter.

Sans, always doing 1 damage, with or without Frisk wearing Armor, means his attack power is “1” and will go through all of Frisk’s defense that are there.

Metaton proves a high enough defense won’t lead to any damage, normally.

Game Mechanics is canon in Undertale.

 

[Theuser789]

Just to clear it up I never meant that inv was related, you are making a interpretation of shit I didn't say, when he "does 1 damage per frame" my point is that because he does one damage he negates dura, not because it happened every frame, everything else was just you and me denying it, this is exactly what I complained about

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Well, then I don’t agree with this part.

User brought up Metaton unable of taking damage by Frisk with a number value to mean, defense does matter.

Sans, always doing 1 damage, with or without Frisk wearing Armor, means his attack power is “1” and will go through all of Frisk’s defense that are there.

Metaton proves a high enough defense won’t lead to any damage, normally.

Game Mechanics is canon in Undertale.

User brought it up to say that Sans negates durability to always do one attack, regardless of defense. I told him it's not a fair comparison unless Chara showed equal or superior defense to mettaton. Mettaton has 255, the player at best can have 99. And regardless of whether or not you actually put on the locket, Sans continues to only do one point of damage regardless.

So at the end of the day, it's not enough evidence to claim the frame damage is durability negation. The whole reason Frisk has invulnerability is because a monster damages him, and for a brief moment Frisk gets invulnerability frames, making him unable to be harmed. Sans is special in that without any specific frame buffs, invulnerability frames are ignored. By the very existence of Frisk having invulnerability as a power, Sans's ability only becomes invulnerability negation.

Some Game Mechanics are canon in Undertale, not all. It's the idea behind the game being meta but that's not true for everything. For an example, Asriel doesn't actually have infinite attack and defense, he only has 8 attack and 9999 defense.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Just to clear it up I never meant that inv was related, you are making a interpretation of shit I didn't say, when he "does 1 damage per frame" my point is that because he does one damage he negates dura, not because it happened every frame, everything else was just you and me denying it, this is exactly what I complained about

Right, and I'm pretty sure I countered that point by saying :

"DF is subtracted from the damage output of the attacking party. However, it cannot lower the damage that the protagonist takes to a value less than 1."

The minimum damage enemies can do to the player is 1 point of damage, not 0. That's not an example of durability negation, that's game mechanics of an attack always doing damage no matter what. That's the reason I linked the wiki, you guys are making durability negation out of a game mechanic.

etc, etc, we all can reread the argument. It's like I said before, this was the separate argument we had beside the invulnerability frames. You claiming that I'm getting confused only makes sense by muddling those arguments together.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I told him it's not a fair comparison unless Chara showed equal or superior defense to mettaton. Mettaton has 255, the player at best can have 99.

Metaton proves a high enough defense won’t lead to any damage, normally.

With Armor, or without Armor, Sans will only deal 1 damage.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Yes, that's what I responded to you with, unless you're failing to understand the context here?

I'll reiterate again, I guess.
If the Player had 255 defense and Sans still harmed the player, then you'd have a fair argument. The player does not. They max out at 99 defense.

 

[Theuser789]

Right, and I'm pretty sure I countered that point by saying :



etc, etc, we all can reread the argument. It's like I said before, this was the separate argument we had beside the invulnerability frames. You claiming that I'm getting confused only makes sense by muddling those arguments together.

All I am saying is what I meant and that you didn't understand, I am not arguing with you anymore because of the attitude you keep showing

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I haven't been showing any attitude towards you at all, all I've been doing is trying to explain that I'm not misunderstanding, and you keep calling me stubborn for it.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Why does the number “255” matter? Is it like some religious number?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Why does the number “255” matter? Is it like some religious number?

The entire point of the argument was that Sans negated durability to always do 1 point of damage no matter what the defense was.
Ghosts can't be touched and Asriel's defense is infinity, so if we should really take the defense ignoring seriously, it would mean that Sans could affect you even with enough durability to otherwise be invincible. 255 is the smallest showing of being invincible to attack. The only showings of 99 defense are with The Locket and Undying Undyne, and they both still take damage. Therefore, Mettaton isn't a reliable argument to be used to support San's 1-point frame damage to be reasoning for durability negation.