Sans (Undertale) VS Steve (Minecraft) (Grace)

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, regardless, the game world is only ever referenced as ""ons and offs", "zeroes and ones" and "lines of code", and outright says "it believed it was playing a game". Assuning that due to contradicting real world physics - which is also outright claimed to be just a dream the player doesn't realize they are in - seems dumb to me.

And no, pretty sure UTs soul manipulation was updated not long ago. While they do not one-shot, monster's soul manipulation still ignores conventional durability. And assuming an average human soul with 20 HP, Sans literally kills in less than a second with his damage, KARMA not included.

 

[ShionAH]

Idk how to bump I assume its just replying so
Bump

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Fall damage is obviously game mechanics unless we'd want to downgrade a massive amount of fictional game characters to at most street level when they have other feats higher than that.

In fact it's not only video games, it's fiction in general. Many times characters like DCAU Superman would have far higher feats than what fall damage could possible achieve yet they still get hurt by it.

Fall damage in general fiction is an inconsistency.

I'll give my thoughts on the vs match later but I had to shut that argument out.

@Ricsi-viragosi

And no, pretty sure UTs soul manipulation was updated not long ago. While they do not one-shot, monster's soul manipulation still ignores conventional durability. And assuming an average human soul with 20 HP, Sans literally kills in less than a second with his damage, KARMA not included.

Then link the thread please, because if anything I have seen nothing but threads talking about how Undertale's soul manipulation is NOT an actual hax ability

 

[ShionAH]

Then link the thread please, because if anything I have seen nothing but threads talking about how Undertale's soul manipulation is NOT an actual hax ability

It is a hax? Thats why sans actually wins any of his matches

 

[Planck69]

Pretty sure Sans is the only one treated as actual hax

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Idk how to bump I assume its just replying so
Bump

Bumping is for nothing but trying to revive dead threads.

There's no need to bump this until there's 8 hours of no activity.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Pretty sure Sans is the only one treated as actual hax

By the KARMA from what I remember, yes.

 

[ShionAH]

Bumping is for nothing but trying to revive dead threads.

There's no need to bump this until there's 8 hours of no activity.

k

 

[ShionAH]

By the KARMA from what I remember, yes.

Then why did you add it here since we are using sans? Why mentioned it

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Then why did you add it here since we are using sans? Why mentioned it

Sans has KARMA as his ability. He's the only one with KARMA.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans has KARMA as his ability. He's the only one with KARMA.

Yes? Ik?
What I mean is why did you make an arguement about it is not an hax while talking in. som-Nevermind

 

[ShionAH]

If I counted right
Sans: 2
Steve: possibly 2, rn 1
Incon: 2

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi-viragosi



Then link the thread please, because if anything I have seen nothing but threads talking about how Undertale's soul manipulation is NOT an actual hax ability

I read that. As I said, it doesn't matter here.

Those other worlds do not aknwoeldge that reality is a set of programming imagined into existence by the universe attempting to observe itself and manifesting through different forms.

It is not an outlier, because literally every law of physics is up to the player's pick and choosing.

Protons and neutrons, hot and cold, scientifically accurate realities or an infinite squared game that is actually energy going on and off and forming zeroes and ones, are all up to how the player views reality.

That is the whole point of the ending segment. It is as blatant as it gets. The real world is not any more real than the game, nor is theor figment of imagination, or dreams and nightmares.

You can't cite laws of physics to say something can't happen because it is a game mechanic, when the lore both explains that Minecraft takes place in a game and that laws of physics are just a matter of observation.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-soul-manipulation-just-or-unjust-removal.110409/

Regardless, Sans ignores actual durability no matter how you slice it.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I read that. As I said, it doesn't matter here.

Those other worlds do not aknwoeldge that reality is a set of programming imagined into existence by the universe attempting to observe itself and manifesting through different forms.

It is not an outlier, because literally every law of physics is up to the player's pick and choosing.

Protons and neutrons, hot and cold, scientifically accurate realities or an infinite squared game that is actually energy going on and off and forming zeroes and ones, are all up to how the player views reality.

That is the whole point of the ending segment. It is as blatant as it gets. The real world is not any more real than the game, nor is theor figment of imagination, or dreams and nightmares.

You can't cite laws of physics to say something can't happen because it is a game mechanic, when the lore both explains that Minecraft takes place in a game and that laws of physics are just a matter of observation.

I don't know what kind of statement you're trying to make here but it makes zero sense.

That's not how the definition of outlier works. You're basically claiming that a fall that would barely be wall level would kill the Player. It's either that or you're claiming Minecraft has such massive gravity that falling does 8-C AP.

The player has law manipulation but for two things: difficulty settings, and the whole bed-exploding things in other worlds. Nothing about SPECIFICALLY manipulating the physics of falling an treating it as a completely different type of physical force altogether even though it shows nothing different in the game from any other physical attack.

What you're basically getting as is asking for a Minecraft CRT to either remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown. Who's to say realistic physics falls in terms of weight? Explosives? Fragmentation energy? Your argument implies absolutely nullifying all calculations in Minecraft.

The literal reason we say fall damage is a game mechanic is BECAUSE it's a general inconsistency across all fiction that makes what would otherwise be city level characters (like Terrarian) die to wall level fall damage.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That's not how the definition of outlier works. You're basically claiming that a fall that would barely be wall level would kill the Player. It's either that or you're claiming Minecraft has such massive gravity that falling does 8-C AP.

I am claiming the rules of the game work differently than real world physics, on account of being stated to be a game, percieved as a game and played like a game. It is outright said that the passasge of days, the sun itself, and the world are different from the real world, and that the player can bring anything they imagine into existence.

The player has law manipulation but for two things: difficulty settings, and the whole bed-exploding things in other worlds. Nothing about SPECIFICALLY manipulating the physics of falling an treating it as a completely different type of physical force altogether even though it shows nothing different in the game from any other physical attack.

Based on what? Neither of those are ever even referenced in the end scene. What is referenced is them creating the real world, every world they ever imagine, and one they percieve through a screen as a program. The only actual game mechanic that is mentioned is that everything is square, and that days pass fast.

What you're basically getting as is asking for a Minecraft CRT to either remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown. Who's to say realistic physics falls in terms of weight? Explosives? Fragmentation energy? Your argument implies absolutely nullifying all calculations in Minecraft.

Or, maybe, take the statement that Minecraft is a game at face value, as its outright stated? Or remove anything that remotly relies on game mechanics.

The literal reason we say fall damage is a game mechanic is BECAUSE it's a general inconsistency across all fiction that makes what would otherwise be city level characters (like Terrarian) die to wall level fall damage.

But that is assuming it is by default an inconsistency. Minecraft even details how the game was programmed by people, or how said program functions.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I am claiming the rules of the game work differently than real world physics, on account of being stated to be a game, percieved as a game and played like a game. It is outright said that the passasge of days, the sun itself, and the world are different from the real world, and that the player can bring anything they imagine into existence.

No one is arguing against that, unless you are implying that because some physics are different, we throw away all physics.

Based on what? Neither of those are ever even referenced in the end scene. What is referenced is them creating the real world, every world they ever imagine, and one they percieve through a screen as a program. The only actual game mechanic that is mentioned is that everything is square, and that days pass fast.

It is referenced in the poem that the Player created the Minecraft Worlds. That implies the Overworld, Nether, and End dimensions in each Minecraft World. Difficulty refers to worlds that are soft, warm, and simple compared to hard and complicated.

Or, maybe, take the statement that Minecraft is a game at face value, as its outright stated? Or remove anything that remotly relies on game mechanics.

So basically, remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown.

But that is assuming it is by default an inconsistency. Minecraft even details how the game was programmed by people, or how said program functions.

It's not assuming it's an inconsistency, it's going by the other feats in the game




At this point we're derailing to a Minecraft CRT.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It is referenced in the poem that the Player created the Minecraft Worlds. That implies the Overworld, Nether, and End dimensions in each Minecraft World. Difficulty refers to worlds that are soft, warm, and simple compared to hard and complicated.

No, that is taking it out of context if you equate them like that. If those are the overworld, nether, and the end, then what is the world with the black sun that never has summer? That whole section describes how the real world is also just a dream, and that your imagination creates realities as well. That is not a reference to difficulty settings for sure, and you certainly cannot prove otherwise.

There is a part where they describe the game's world later, but there it is taking its nature as a game fully, so if you take that all game mechanics would be canon.

So basically, remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown.

No, that is still not what I'm saying. I'm saying the game mechanics are canon.

It's not assuming it's an inconsistency, it's going by the other feats in the game

And why do the other feats need to contradict it?


Regardless, I can make a crt for it then. As well as Undertale, if they ever get the other crts through, the current ratings are flawed as hell.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

No, that is taking it out of context if you equate them like that. If those are the overworld, nether, and the end, then what is the world with the black sun that never has summer? That whole section describes how the real world is also just a dream, and that your imagination creates realities as well. That is not a reference to difficulty settings for sure, and you certainly cannot prove otherwise.

There is a part where they describe the game's world later, but there it is taking its nature as a game fully, so if you take that all game mechanics would be canon.

"But there are times it is sad, in the long dream. It creates worlds that have no summer, and it shivers under a black sun, and it takes its sad creation for reality." This is just referring to real life my guy. "That, it must achieve in the long dream of life, not the short dream of a game." None of that paragraph has anything to do with what I said about difficulty, I have no clue why you're bringing it up

"infinite world created by a man called Markus, that exists inside a small, private world created by the player, who inhabits a universe created by...." Are you telling me that the Player did not create the Minecraft world?

No, that is still not what I'm saying. I'm saying the game mechanics are canon.

Right, so blast resistance making the mere mining of one block of basalt require energy equal to 0.3 tons of TNT? Or how entities in Minecraft can fight in their prime even on the brink of death, or how they are immune to getting chopped to pieces by any AP despite wielding and fighting each other with swords? With these different physics taken into account, who's to say blocks weigh the same as the real world other than assuming those physics are the same? In fact, why say Ghast fireballs are 0.3 tons of TNT, who's to say sandstone yields the same fragmentation energy as real life? Who's to say what Steve is capable of if we don't know how a player would think and react? Who's to say that the Ender Dragon would literally do nothing but follow its AI no matter what happens to it in a versus match? Is the Enderdragon immune to knockback from anything as well? If fall damage is its own special thing, is it even right to try to use fall damage to calc their tier, especially when it doesn't have the gravitational acceleration as real life? How much would Steve even weigh? We can't assume average human obviously.

To repeat: Your argument implies absolutely nullifying all calculations in Minecraft. So we remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki, or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown, because we have no source of AP, not even fall damage, that we can reliably use.

And why do the other feats need to contradict it?

What do you mean why do they need to? Are you asking me why 9-A, 8-C, High 8-C, 8-B, and Low 7-C need to contradict with 9-B? What answer are you looking for?


This never should have been an argument about a CRT to begin with. If you wanted a CRT then go make a thread on it, don't bring it in a vs thread. Just because someone believes a character should be 3-A when they're 4-B does not mean arguing for 3-A in a vs thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"But there are times it is sad, in the long dream. It creates worlds that have no summer, and it shivers under a black sun, and it takes its sad creation for reality." This is just referring to real life my guy. "That, it must achieve in the long dream of life, not the short dream of a game." None of that paragraph has anything to do with what I said about difficulty, I have no clue why you're bringing it up

No. It is even said that "sometimes" it dreams of being human. There are worlds besides Minecraft and the real world.

"infinite world created by a man called Markus, that exists inside a small, private world created by the player, who inhabits a universe created by...." Are you telling me that the Player did not create the Minecraft world?

It did. But so did it create others.

Right, so blast resistance making the mere mining of one block of basalt require energy equal to 0.3 tons of TNT? Or how entities in Minecraft can fight in their prime even on the brink of death, or how they are immune to getting chopped to pieces by any AP despite wielding and fighting each other with swords? With these different physics taken into account, who's to say blocks weigh the same as the real world other than assuming those physics are the same? In fact, why say Ghast fireballs are 0.3 tons of TNT, who's to say sandstone yields the same fragmentation energy as real life? Who's to say what Steve is capable of if we don't know how a player would think and react? Who's to say that the Ender Dragon would literally do nothing but follow its AI no matter what happens to it in a versus match? Is the Enderdragon immune to knockback from anything as well? If fall damage is its own special thing, is it even right to try to use fall damage to calc their tier, especially when it doesn't have the gravitational acceleration as real life? How much would Steve even weigh? We can't assume average human obviously.

We assume Obsidian is night indestructable, and we literally assume Steve can fight with a bunch of arrows through his head, so that's two of the three exemples you gave being accepted. And the rest is not even an argument against what I said. Likewise, this doesn't prove that the hard and soft part referred to the game world, as opposed to any other world they could have imagined.

I assume you took this time to re-watch the final part of the game. Do you not agree they make it immensely clear that the world of Minecraft is a game, made from energy going on and off, which forms zeroes and ones, which forms the words on the screen that the player percieves to read?

To repeat: Your argument implies absolutely nullifying all calculations in Minecraft. So we remove Minecraft entirely from the wiki, or change the stats of everyone in Minecraft to Unknown, because we have no source of AP, not even fall damage, that we can reliably use.

Even assuming that, that is not an argument against it. Do you agree or not, that the final portion outright states that the game is actually a game as percieved by the player?

Regardless, you either take all game mechanics or you don't take them. The only actual mechanic that is outright claimed is that death is just an inconvinience.

This never should have been an argument about a CRT to begin with. If you wanted a CRT then go make a thread on it, don't bring it in a vs thread. Just because someone believes a character should be 3-A when they're 4-B does not mean arguing for 3-A in a vs thread.

Well, I'm not looking to change the profile. It already assumes a bunch of game mechanics are canon.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

No. It is even said that "sometimes" it dreams of being human. There are worlds besides Minecraft and the real world.

I never denied that they sometimes dreamed of being human, and although I never said anything against that, there was nothing about that sentence to bring up worlds beside Minecraft. At this point this is reaching.

It did. But so did it create others.

... and this debunks me, how?

We assume Obsidian is night indestructable, and we literally assume Steve can fight with a bunch of arrows through his head, so that's two of the three exemples you gave being accepted. And the rest is not even an argument against what I said. Likewise, this doesn't prove that the hard and soft part referred to the game world, as opposed to any other world they could have imagined.

I assume you took this time to re-watch the final part of the game. Do you not agree they make it immensely clear that the world of Minecraft is a game, made from energy going on and off, which forms zeroes and ones, which forms the words on the screen that the player percieves to read?

We don't assume Obsidian is nigh indestructible. First of, it straight up is, only canonically destroyed with diamond pickaxes and the Wither. Second off, the Mobestiary supports how durable obsidian is on the Wither page when referring to how powerful the boss is. The game did not have to put arrows in Steve's head when he got hit. In fact, it used to not. It was later added into the game. Idk why you use the word "assume" when it's blatantly there, not vaguely there.

The rest is exactly an argument, and nothing you've said proves otherwise.

Who told you that we do NOT address Minecraft as a game? It's literally the in AP section of the real player? What are you arguing?

Even assuming that, that is not an argument against it. Do you agree or not, that the final portion outright states that the game is actually a game as percieved by the player?

Regardless, you either take all game mechanics or you don't take them. The only actual mechanic that is outright claimed is that death is just an inconvinience.

No one ever said it WAS NOT a game. At this point make a CRT for Doki Doki Literature Club as well. Actually no, at this point make a wiki-wide CRT thread for all game verses that have a reality and fiction in its lore of treating itself as a game. You confuse something being a game with ignoring all the feats in the game and assuming everything is game mechanics.

Y'know what's funny? Undertale canonically addresses taking turns in combat, and the way to beat Sans is literally by cheating. Undertale blatantly calls this out but you don't ever bring it up in a vs thread, I assume.

Well, I'm not looking to change the profile. It already assumes a bunch of game mechanics are canon.

If you're not looking to change the profile why is this discussion still going on? You're looking to change the idea of what is stated on Steve's page in the middle of a vs thread just so fall damage can be a factor.

 

[TheGatememer]

I'm pretty sure that Steve can just keep on coming back until Sans gets tired out.

 

[ShionAH]

I'm pretty sure that Steve can just keep on coming back until Sans gets tired out.

1- Sans can destroy his bed
2- If bed gets destroyed theres a possible BFR

 

[ShionAH]

Bumping this

 

[TheGatememer]

probably not, he can probably get back to the Judgement hall within a day.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

The main reason Sans was such a threat was because of how much faster he is than Frisk.

That's why his info box explicitly says he's the weakest monster and can only do one point of damage, yet at the same time he proves to be one of the biggest threats in the game.

San's massively weaker soul abilities are made up for with his vast speed advantage over Frisk, allowing him to damage Frisk at a much faster rate than other monsters comparable to Frisk in speed. This was shown by the use of invincibilty frames, and by Sans consistently dodging all of Frisk's attacks.

But in this scenario, speed is equalized, removing Sans's only actual advantage that made him such a threat against Frisk.
Even under the impression that soul attacks bypass durability, Sans is not killing Steve within a fast enough timeframe for it to be a reliable win outcome, and he's not guaranteed to be dodging all of Steve's attacks either, and that's important to note since Steve only needs to land one hit.

 

[ShionAH]

probably not, he can probably get back to the Judgement hall within a day.

Ehh nah. He would need to fall into the mountain walk all the way tot the judgement hall maybe even fighr some monsters if its allowed

 

[ShionAH]

The main reason Sans was such a thread was because of how much faster he is than Frisk.

That's why his info box explicitly says he's the weakest monster and can only do one point of damage, yet at the same time he proves to be one of the biggest threats in the game.

San's massively weaker soul abilities are made up for with his vast speed advantage over Frisk, allowing him to damage Frisk at a much faster rate than other monsters comparable to Frisk in speed. This was shown by the use of invincibilty frames, and by Sans consistently dodging all of Frisk's attacks.

But in this scenario, speed is equalized, removing Sans's only actual advantage that made him such a threat against Frisk.
Even under the impression that soul attacks bypass durability, Sans is not killing Steve within a fast enough timeframe for it to be a reliable win outcome, and he's not guaranteed to be dodging all of Steve's attacks either, and that's important to note since Steve only needs to land one hit.

I made it ≠ now debate

 

[ShionAH]

Bump

 

[ShionAH]

Bumpy

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Slow down, people are allowed to be busy. We usually bump after about 8 hours.

Anyways, I thought it was already explained at the start of this thread that unequalized speed leads to a blitz.

 

[ShionAH]

Slow down, people are allowed to be busy. We usually bump after about 8 hours.

Oops sorry

Anyways, I thought it was already explained at the start of this thread that unequalized speed leads to a blitz.

No it was an Inconclusive because of Immortality, Then became a stomp (Sans gets stomped) so I added the bed but equalized the speed but it was a stomp again (Sans gets again) so now it should be fair.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Comments 1-16: It was inconclusive because of Sans blitzing, but Steve had Immortality, meaning neither could permakill the other.

Comments 17-22: It was a considered a stomp in Steve's favor because Sans would eventually tire out and Steve would win, so it was just delaying the inevitable.

Comments 23-28: It was now a stomp for Sans because Sans could now blitz and destroy the bed.

Comment 29-109: You equalized speed.

Comment 110: You unequalize speed again.

 

[ShionAH]

Comments 1-16: It was inconclusive because of Sans blitzing, but Steve had Immortality, meaning neither could permakill the other.

Yes but there was a chance of sans absorbing sans soul

Comments 17-22: It was a considered a stomp in Steve's favor because Sans would eventually tire out and Steve would win, so it was just delaying the inevitable.

There was no bed mechanic nor BFR

Comments 23-28: It was now a stomp for Sans because Sans could now blitz and destroy the bed.

No people started to debate if steve can come back

Comment 29-109: You equalized speed.

Yes then people said steve stomps

Comment 110: You unequalize speed again.

Yes

 

[TheGatememer]

Honestly, this seems like a mismatch no matter how you put it.

 

[ShionAH]

Honestly, this seems like a mismatch no matter how you put it.

Hmm sorry, this one of my first debates can you give me an good idea?

 

[TheGatememer]

For a good matchup, you should make sure both opponents have a method to win. Sometimes, one character will stomp the other, as they have no win conditions, or vice versa. For instance, if speed is unequalized, then Sans is just gonna Blitz and stomp everytime Steve comes back. However, if speed is equalized, then Sans really has no way to put Steve down for good, therefore, this match is a mismatch. So in short, just make sure both characters have some realistic method to win against the opponent.

 

[ShionAH]

For a good matchup, you should make sure both opponents have a method to win. Sometimes, one character will stomp the other, as they have no win conditions, or vice versa. For instance, if speed is unequalized, then Sans is just gonna Blitz and stomp everytime Steve comes back. However, if speed is equalized, then Sans really has no way to put Steve down for good, therefore, this match is a mismatch. So in short, just make sure both characters have some realistic method to win against the opponent.

Okay thanks

 

[Theuser789]

I don't understand why this thread has over 100 replys

Isn't this a blitz? Plus Sans still negates dura, that's how he is able to beat Chara with the locket, Sans always does the same damage against his opponents while, he would just do half a heart damage per second plus karma, that and the speed advantage makes this a stomp

Plus why is it argued that Sans dura negating is because of speed? He negates inv which is an actual thing even accepted here

Plus destroying the bed makes him go through the entire underground

 

[ShionAH]

I don't understand why this thread has over 100 replys

Idk too Overthinking I think

Isn't this a blitz?

Steve had immortality (Well atleast thats what steves defense was)

Plus Sans still negates dura, that's how he is able to beat Chara with the locket, Sans always does the same damage against his opponents while, he would just do half a heart damage per second plus karma, that and the speed advantage makes this a stomp

So sans stomps What can immortality do

Plus why is it argued that Sans dura negating is because of speed? He negates inv which is an actual thing even accepted here

Ikr

Plus destroying the bed makes him go through the entire underground

I said it but people said he can come back in 1 day walk the entire underground