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Saint Seiya Hades Hax Upgrade
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
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- #42
You people are missing the point.
Seiya doesn't exist. He is within a world of nonexistence devoid of time. You are fixating on the way Hades explains it to interpret that the sword teleports his soul to another dimension.
It doesn't, it removes him from existence.
A BFR wouldn't remove Seiya from the Wheel of Reincarnation, which is the Buddhist Samsara.
Seiya doesn't exist. He is within a world of nonexistence devoid of time. You are fixating on the way Hades explains it to interpret that the sword teleports his soul to another dimension.
It doesn't, it removes him from existence.
A BFR wouldn't remove Seiya from the Wheel of Reincarnation, which is the Buddhist Samsara.
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Outside of the Cycle of Reincarnation implies he's no longer bound by life and death tbh. Idk much about that, but given there is no time, that can be a factor.
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This is something much more than simple BFR ovo.
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- #45
It is Buddhism. Wheel of Samsara, 6 Realms. Those who reach enlightnment and attain Buddhahood transcend it.
What Hades is doing is removing Seiya from it. Meaning he will never reincarnate again. And he does it by making him disappear completely, sending him to nonexistence.
The "World of Emptiness" is likely not a physical place you can go on your own.
And even if it is, tht doesn't mean it is just a BFR. Marvel has Oblivion's Dimension for things which return to nonexistence. So when someone is erased from existence they return to Oblivion, but that doesn't mean that Existence Erasure is BFR.
What Hades is doing is removing Seiya from it. Meaning he will never reincarnate again. And he does it by making him disappear completely, sending him to nonexistence.
The "World of Emptiness" is likely not a physical place you can go on your own.
And even if it is, tht doesn't mean it is just a BFR. Marvel has Oblivion's Dimension for things which return to nonexistence. So when someone is erased from existence they return to Oblivion, but that doesn't mean that Existence Erasure is BFR.
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- #46
"It is already too late. The "Hero" is no longer part of this world."
"No... We could say that he received a fate worst than death. He has disappeared completely! And this was brought forth by my own hands"
"The Pegasus... Even his soul... Is located within an impossible place... He now wanders outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. He is in the World of Emptiness! As it is Emptiness, time does not exist, and thus he remains outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. And like that he will never be able to return. This is the true annihilatio"
"He was the last "Hope" which remained from Pandora's Box. But this has now been lost forever. The Pegasus of this world shall never return again. Hope... Has been completely extinguished from this world."
^ Note the highlighted quotes. Hades is saying that Seiya was erased, not transported. Seiya cannot return or revive or reincarnate, because he was removed from existence.
If it was just a BFR, Seiya could return theoretically. He can't. And if it was just a BFR, Hades wouldn't use words like disappeared completely, annihilation, extinguished, or removed from existence.
"No... We could say that he received a fate worst than death. He has disappeared completely! And this was brought forth by my own hands"
"The Pegasus... Even his soul... Is located within an impossible place... He now wanders outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. He is in the World of Emptiness! As it is Emptiness, time does not exist, and thus he remains outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. And like that he will never be able to return. This is the true annihilatio"
"He was the last "Hope" which remained from Pandora's Box. But this has now been lost forever. The Pegasus of this world shall never return again. Hope... Has been completely extinguished from this world."
^ Note the highlighted quotes. Hades is saying that Seiya was erased, not transported. Seiya cannot return or revive or reincarnate, because he was removed from existence.
If it was just a BFR, Seiya could return theoretically. He can't. And if it was just a BFR, Hades wouldn't use words like disappeared completely, annihilation, extinguished, or removed from existence.
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""It is already too late. The "Hero" is no longer part of this world."
"No... We could say that he received a fate worst than death. He has disappeared completely! And this was brought forth by my own hands""
Because he's in the World of Emptiness.
"The Pegasus... Even his soul... Is located within an impossible place... He now wanders outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. He is in the World of Emptiness! As it is Emptiness, time does not exist, and thus he remains outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. And like that he will never be able to return. This is the true annihilatio"
"He was the last "Hope" which remained from Pandora's Box. But this has now been lost forever. The Pegasus of this world shall never return again. Hope... Has been completely extinguished from this world."
But given this context, it sounds like the reason he is outside of this cycle is due to the lack of time. "and thus" meaning as a result, or consequence. In the context of that statement, annihilation doesn't suit what is stated, and seems like flowery language.
Hope has been extinguished from this world also seems like flowery language, given he is simply in the World of Emptiness, and not whatever world everybody else is in.
"No... We could say that he received a fate worst than death. He has disappeared completely! And this was brought forth by my own hands""
Because he's in the World of Emptiness.
"The Pegasus... Even his soul... Is located within an impossible place... He now wanders outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. He is in the World of Emptiness! As it is Emptiness, time does not exist, and thus he remains outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. And like that he will never be able to return. This is the true annihilatio"
"He was the last "Hope" which remained from Pandora's Box. But this has now been lost forever. The Pegasus of this world shall never return again. Hope... Has been completely extinguished from this world."
But given this context, it sounds like the reason he is outside of this cycle is due to the lack of time. "and thus" meaning as a result, or consequence. In the context of that statement, annihilation doesn't suit what is stated, and seems like flowery language.
Hope has been extinguished from this world also seems like flowery language, given he is simply in the World of Emptiness, and not whatever world everybody else is in.
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- Thread starter
- #48
@Unite
No, you are interpreting the part that's flowery as literal and not the part that's literal as flowery.
Simply being BFRd wouldn't remove Seiya from the Cycle of Reincarnatio. He would still die and return to the Wheel of Samsara. In this situation, Seiya has been removed from existence and time, and thus doesn't exist. His soul isn't being aported to another dimension. It is being directly removed from existence. And Hades' language talking about how Seiya has been annihilated or extinguished serves my point. He refers to Seiya as if he were erased, not teleported.
No, you are interpreting the part that's flowery as literal and not the part that's literal as flowery.
Simply being BFRd wouldn't remove Seiya from the Cycle of Reincarnatio. He would still die and return to the Wheel of Samsara. In this situation, Seiya has been removed from existence and time, and thus doesn't exist. His soul isn't being aported to another dimension. It is being directly removed from existence. And Hades' language talking about how Seiya has been annihilated or extinguished serves my point. He refers to Seiya as if he were erased, not teleported.
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But how would he die or be removed from this cycle, if he's in a place where time doesn't exist?
The sentence itself says because it is emptiness, and because time doesn't exist, that he would be removed from this cycle. It makes a direct correlation between the World of Emptiness and his position in the cycle.
The sentence itself says because it is emptiness, and because time doesn't exist, that he would be removed from this cycle. It makes a direct correlation between the World of Emptiness and his position in the cycle.
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- #50
What is an emptiness devoid of time? Nonexistence. I say that it means that Seiya is removed from the Wheel because he is sent to nonexistence.
This is also being noted as specifically more impressive than simply killing, as it annihilates the soul as well. So it is very likely that everyone who has their soul destroyed in Saint Seiya end up in the World of Emptiness.
Sorta like how in The Ultimates #100, they reveal that there's a place outside The Shore Beyond where everything that faded from existence "nonexists" in.
This is also being noted as specifically more impressive than simply killing, as it annihilates the soul as well. So it is very likely that everyone who has their soul destroyed in Saint Seiya end up in the World of Emptiness.
Sorta like how in The Ultimates #100, they reveal that there's a place outside The Shore Beyond where everything that faded from existence "nonexists" in.
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If it hasn't already been added, I agree with this. It's pretty clear to me that Hades erased him and he states he removed him outside the Cycle of Reincarnation.
Again, ignore this if it's already been added.
Again, ignore this if it's already been added.
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Well then if that's the case, why is BFR a proposed upgrade for erasing him out of existence?
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- #53
I want to add it as Void Manipulation.
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Then that would also be void manipulation for Seiya as well.
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Well, we list Lavos doing something similar to the feat as "BFR" and it's not any less broken, right? It could work if we list as BFR and expand on what it does - banishes the target to a realm of nothingness outside all universes, removing their very beings from the cycle of reincarnation, left in a condition where time doesn't even flow so they are unable to come back, resurrect, yada yada.
Because Hades already has your everyday Existence Erasure either way.
Because Hades already has your everyday Existence Erasure either way.
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I feel like this is a mix of BFR and Negation - from the looks of it and from both Seiya being unable to recover and Athena being unable to heal him from the curse, it would seem like it nopes regen as well.
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Finally, I don't think the sword needs to *kill* as much as it needs to pierce the target (which is what Hades mentions and also what will happen with Seiya in next dimension) for its effect to kick in - I mean, Seiya is still alive in ND, isn't he? Incapacitated for years before even having his heart pierced, but alive regardless.
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- #59
Yes, he is.
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"Hades throws Sword", new meme confirmed.
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Anyways, whatever you all decide to add this as, it's okay with me.
Just gave a suggestion, but otherwise, fully supported.
Just gave a suggestion, but otherwise, fully supported.
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- #63
Okay, updated Hades' profile with Void Manipulation.
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But then with that logic (and not to derail but), shouldn't everyone at the tournament of power have void manipulation via existing in the world of void?
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- #65
That's not why Hades has Void Manipulation. Hades has Void Manipulation because he removes your soul from reality sending it to nonexistence.
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But one of the uses of void manipulation on the page is "existing in non-existence", which is why I said Pegasus should have that too then.
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- #67
But Pegasus doesn't exist in nonexistence. The Seiya of the Lost World is long dead, erased by Hades. The Seiya of the Main Universe has been resisting being erased by Hades for 22 years, tho.
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"He now wanders outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. He is in the World of Emptiness! As it is Emptiness, time does not exist, and thus he remains outside the Cycle of Reincarnation. And like that he will never be able to return. This is the true annihilation!"
Doesn't that imply he exists there?
Doesn't that imply he exists there?
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No, he's been erased and that's where he ended up.
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Alright, so this means void manipulation for DB characters then ovo
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- #71
No.
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Why not?
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And how do you think it works?
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I'll make a separate post.
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- #78
Okay, I think I get your confusion. Hades is getting Void Manipulation for erasing people into nonexistence. Seiya "not-existing" in the World of Emptiness doesn't give him Void Manipulation.
As for the World of Void, is it really a void?
As for the World of Void, is it really a void?
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/973086
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This is not surprising, after all, still in the classic Hades claims to be able to literally erase the soul of Pegasus preventing her from reincarnating
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