[Saint Seiya] Giving Virgo Shaka "Possibly [same Hashun tier]"

[Huesito88]

Had the title updated again to make sure people notice I aim for a "Possibly"

Curious how would this should be rated because most people that disagree with you have "Shun-Hades" (all around body and spirit included) above Thanatos and Hypnos whom are currently 2-C. However it seems to me like your proposing Shaka could kill "Shun-Hades", but are saying his physical bodies's Durability does not scale at all to Thanatos and Hypnos and should be where Gold Saint/Main 5 Bronze Saint Level at (Low 2-C at max currently in profiles)?

So how would Shaka be rated as with the possibly?

 

[noninho]

Curious how would this should be rated because most people that disagree with you have "Shun-Hades" (all around body and spirit included) above Thanatos and Hypnos whom are currently 2-C. However it seems to me like your proposing Shaka could kill "Shun-Hades", but are saying his physical bodies's Durability does not scale at all to Thanatos and Hypnos and should be where Gold Saint/Main 5 Bronze Saint Level at (Low 2-C at max currently in profiles)?

So how would Shaka be rated as with the possibly?

His body would be scaling down to that, IMO, and I mention in OP that we should add a possibly to both profiles ("possibly Hashun scales to [Shaka's tier] via feeling threatened by him but Athena didn't let Shaka attack properly so the actual result is unknown" and "possibly Shaka scales to [Hashun's tier] via being able to threatening him but Athena impeded him twice so the actual result is unknown")*

 

[Huesito88]

His body would be scaling down to that, IMO, and I mention in OP that we should add a possibly to both profiles ("possibly Hashun scales to [Shaka's tier] via feeling threatened by him but Athena didn't let Shaka attack properly so the actual result is unknown" and "possibly Shaka scales to [Hashun's tier] via being able to threatening him but Athena impeded him twice so the actual result is unknown")*

Well there's another thing you'd need to put on the op and that's if Shaka does scale to "Shun-Hades" then he must get a speed upgrade based on how Cosmos is scaled in the series.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Curious how would this should be rated because most people that disagree with you have "Shun-Hades" (all around body and spirit included) above Thanatos and Hypnos whom are currently 2-C. However it seems to me like your proposing Shaka could kill "Shun-Hades", but are saying his physical bodies's Durability does not scale at all to Thanatos and Hypnos and should be where Gold Saint/Main 5 Bronze Saint Level at (Low 2-C at max currently in profiles)?

So how would Shaka be rated as with the possibly?

Iirc it shoukd be Alone Key that is 2-C

 

[Hasty12345]

updated scaling will likely put Shun hades and Shaka in the same tier, but there will be no scaling between them.

Hades earlier defeated Ikki who is above Shaka. Everything about this scaling update is wrong down to the very principle it's founded upon.

We do not scale characters based on who they think they can beat, Hades was sensing Athena's cosmo not Shaka's, and Shaka is weaker than characters Hades has on panel defeated and scales above him.

This will all come in upcoming CRTs when we start fixing the verse.

 

[StekFence]

Iirc it shoukd be Alone Key that is 2-C

What about GA hades shun?

 

[Hasty12345]

What about GA hades shun?

he'd be his own key

Hades will likely get a key for each host

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What about GA hades shun?

True, but should be separate from Alome. Actually alone should be his own profile

 

[noninho]

Well there's another thing you'd need to put on the op and that's if Shaka does scale to "Shun-Hades" then he must get a speed upgrade based on how Cosmos is scaled in the series

My idea was only for AP (also speedwise aren't all of them infinite or mftl?) But if so, it's ok

updated scaling will likely put Shun hades and Shaka in the same tier

If they don't, this thread says hi with a "possibly". That's all.

So...Shaka's at x while Shun-Hades is at y...and that doesn't make sense to me.

Hades earlier defeated Ikki who is above Shaka.

He could beat Shaka because of his flaw/weakness of being way too proud...2 arcs before this one.
Nah, he's not.

We do not scale characters based on who they think they can beat, Hades was sensing Athena's cosmo not Shaka's

Yes, saying it was that way was my bad, and the point still is there for the other 2 dialogue points I highlight all the time (Virgo Shaka!!->I came to take your life Hades-> !!). Does not interfere on my proposal, thankfully.


But anyway, if they end up on the same tier but without this "possibly" and all of this was unnecessary because it was achieved on a better way, it'd be funny, actually!
But if the events don't turn out on the specifics I said, I'm really in favor of we having this discussed

 

[Hasty12345]

If they don't, this thread says hi with a "possibly". That's all.

"4-A possibly 4-A"

Virgo Shaka!!->I came to take your life Hades->

'Mike Tyson, I've come to beat you up" - a 5'5 80 pound man

 

[Lynieryz]

"4-A possibly 4-A"

"4-A possibly higher"

For now I agree with "possibly" but I'm not so sure so it's possible that I'll change my mind later.

 

[Hasty12345]

"4-A possibly higher"

For now I agree with "possibly" but I'm not so sure so it's possible that I'll change my mind later.

Shaka won't scale anywhere near Shunades when we get to the Hades arc scaling

 

[Huesito88]

"My idea was only for AP (also speedwise aren't all of them infinite or mftl?) But if so, it's ok"

Classic Gold Saints/Main 5 Bronze Saints are currently rated as MFTL+. While in Classic God Cloth and Hypnos, Thanos, Hades, Athena are infinite.

 

[noninho]

Bump
Would any other mod kindly come here?

Iirc it shoukd be Alone Key that is 2-C

M'am, do you have any vote? I assume TH are mods/admins too but even if not, would be appreciated

 

[noninho]

Bump

 

[Planck69]

@Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist @DemonGodMitchAubin @Emirp sumitpo @KingTempest @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa

I've been asked to ping you guys.

 

[noninho]

Thank you.
Hoping anyone agrees with me

 

[Dereck03]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, OP's proposal is to scale Shaka to 2-C for being able to "surprise" hades while saying he has come to kill him?

 

[noninho]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, OP's proposal is to scale Shaka to 2-C for being able to "surprise" hades while saying he has come to kill him?

Add a "possibly" to both profiles.
Shaka possibly 2-C, Hashun key possibly L2-C (for now, at least, since this is their tiering for the time)

 

[noninho]

Add a "possibly" to both profiles.
Shaka possibly 2-C, Hashun key possibly L2-C (for now, at least, since this is their tiering for the time)

Like yeah, at first I was thinking that it should be 100% the tier
But i feel like Athena not letting them conclude anything leaves it only for a possibility

 

[Lynieryz]

There is also Athena saying that Shaka may be able to hurt Hashun's body but not his soul.

 

[Hasty12345]

Add a "possibly" to both profiles.
Shaka possibly 2-C, Hashun key possibly L2-C (for now, at least, since this is their tiering for the time)

“2-C possibly low 2-C”?

 

[noninho]

There is also Athena saying that Shaka may be able to hurt Hashun's body but not his soul.

(This is cool to remember as the soul is more scaling to Hades than the body Athena herself claimed was not to be Hades' vessel, and it's the main reason why this whole thread is feasible without saying "golds>gods" or something that wrecks the scaling chain)

 

[noninho]

“2-C possibly low 2-C”?

No, as I put on the op, mate:

If G and Classic's Hashun gotta be on the same profile, Hades should have at least 3 keys on his profile:

" Classic Hashun | Assassin Hashun | Hades
AP: Possibly L2-C (was threatened by Virgo Shaka and had his soul removed by Base Athena) 2-C (all the justification we have for this) | 2-C (beaten xyz on God Cloths) | 2-C (all the justification for Hades to be on this tier)"

Or, if Classic's Hashun is 100% 2-C, Shaka MUST have it on his profile

"AP: Blablabla L2-C (all justification for him to be this tier) Possibly 2-C (Threatened Classic's Hashun, though Athena didn't let Shaka attack him properly)

Yeah, I do know now that you plan to separate g from classic, but you can get the idea from this, I think

 

[noninho]

Important note: I mentioned the Athena exorcising on there because I think it's worthy justification of "this is a much weaker version of Hades", as Athena in base clearly cannot do anything like that to Hades when he's himself

Edit: to me this is so minor and comparatively unimportant to what the remake of the verse tries to get, and I still get as much evidence as possible to support it and the feeling that it's not as obvious or even a reality to people.
I feel strange

 

[noninho]

Edited OP a bit
If another person comes with an unsure input or a confirmation of what I mean, I'll rewrite it entirely

 

[Hasty12345]

Just because it’s unimportant, doesn’t mean we can put wrong information on the profiles.

My planned Gold Saint scaling CRT will unequivocally prove Shaka does not scale to Shunades.

Do as you please.

 

[noninho]

My planned Gold Saint scaling CRT will unequivocally prove Shaka does not scale to Shunades.

If you can prove it and will do it on a crt later

Don't hold it, bring it up.
I'm not thinking I'm the owner of all truths, I just feel I'm right on this one

 

[Hasty12345]

If you can prove it and will do it on a crt later

Don't hold it, bring it up.
I'm not thinking I'm the owner of all truths, I just feel I'm right on this one

I will revise the gold saints scaling when I get through the lower tiers. I’m not “holding it”, but the outcome of this CRT won’t be important when the whole verses scaling is revised. You will see the scaling gap between Shaka and Shunades and you will see why Shaka’s claim is absurd.

The profiles are in such a mess at the moment, every single 7th sense user is the same tier and there’s no defined scaling chain, it gives the impression This is viable, but it’s not internally consistent with the scaling of classic and it’s not like Shaka actually has a feat here to solidify his placement.

This is all guess work based on declarations, facial expressions and misinterpretations of Athena’s words.

I say do as you please, but I will fix it later or at least demonstrate that your interpretation of this interaction is by no means viable whatsoever.

 

[Lynieryz]

For me ATHENA saying that Shaka might be capable of hurting Hashun's body already defeats any possibility of Shaka not scaling to Hashun even more so when it's a "possibly"

 

[noninho]

I say do as you please, but I will fix it later or at least demonstrate that your interpretation of this interaction is by no means viable whatsoever.

Yeah, ig?

For me ATHENA saying that Shaka might be capable of hurting Hashun's body already defeats any possibility of Shaka not scaling to Hashun even more so when it's a "possibly"

This is the part that's leaving me the most curious about what will this guy say

Like, the expressions are there
The words are there
Athena’s statements about both what would be damaged and why is this form so different from Hades

Idk, I'd not spend this much time forcing an interpretation, this really seems true to me...

 

[Hasty12345]

For me ATHENA saying that Shaka might be capable of hurting Hashun's body already defeats any possibility of Shaka not scaling to Hashun even more so when it's a "possibly"

She doesn’t say that, you’re completely misreading the scan.

She’s saying they couldn’t kill hades without hurting shun, not that they could damage Shunades.

Even if you take that statement at its most literal, she’s not even saying Shaka can hurt Hades, she saying both of them if they could, they would only hurt Shun.

There’s no evidence in this interaction to suggest Shaka is putting up a fight, and the scaling chain would prove that beyond reasonable doubt.

A scaling chain that will be implemented when some staff get to my current CRT so I can move on.

 

[noninho]

She’s saying they couldn’t kill hades without hurting shun, not that they could damage Shunades.

Even if you take that statement at its most literal, she’s not even saying Shaka can hurt Hades, she saying both of them if they could, they would only hurt Shun.

I never said "kill hades". "Leave a soul bodyless"= "killing", and in this case is Hashun (no Shun, just Hades' soul)
If they can hurt Shun's body (which Shaka believes it's not Shun there so he doesn't mind) and the guy "!!" after the guy claims will end him, things do sum up, imo

Haven't I repeated that 5 times at least, including OP?

There’s no evidence in this interaction to suggest Shaka is putting up a fight

? What?

 

[noninho]

Shaka was literally about to attack him.
Twice.
And Athena impeded him...

If Athena thought this would mean nothing, why impeding the attacks (I've gone over this too)? And Athena does know how to analyze stuff, so if this wasn't a concern she'd know and it's most likely, according to many other examples on how DEM works on this show, that kurumada would write on a way for Athena to save Shaka if the attacks were to be ineffective (I also gone over this)

 

[Hasty12345]

Your debunks are not satisfactory and are not actually debunks when you read the whole sequence.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I gotta agree with Hasty here, that encounter ending on a full scaling between Shaka and Hades-Shun is both problematic and contradictory to other feats and scaling for this version of Hades

Him being above Hypnos and Thanatos by itself should already block any Gold Saint to fully scaling to his power, considering Thanatos' feats against the Bronze Saints later. And all of the information presented here doesn't quite show a clear scaling between these two, Shaka is confident yes, so was Hades, and I fail to understand why we should look at only one side of that confidence even when it breaks the overall scaling

 

[Huesito88]

Worth mentioning that Shaka arrived to "Shun-Hades" after Shaka sensed Hades Cosmos rising, the same "Shun-Hades" whom was "fighting" Ikki the (Ikki did nothing) chapter prior then upped the level 1000 times.

Do with that what you will.

 

[Hasty12345]

Worth mentioning that Shaka arrived to "Shun-Hades" after Shaka sensed Hades Cosmos rising, the same "Shun-Hades" whom was "fighting" Ikki the (Ikki did nothing) chapter prior then upped the level 1000 times.

Do with that what you will.

Yeah, Hades then wanted a nap/rest so I doubt he maintained his cosmo level.

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah, Hades then wanted a nap/rest so I doubt he maintained his cosmo level.

True, just thought I'd point out that Shaka did have an idea on "Shun-Hades" power, from it rising from way above Ikki level to 1000 times said "above that starting effort", prior to confronting him.

 

[Hasty12345]

True, just thought I'd point out that Shaka did have an idea on "Shun-Hades" power, from it rising from way above Ikki level to 1000 times said "above that starting effort", prior to confronting him.

Even so, Shaka has win cons outside of his ability to harm HadeShun, like Tenbu Horin which HadesShun has no defense against.