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[Saint Seiya] Giving Virgo Shaka "Possibly [same Hashun tier]"
- Thread starter noninho
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As someone who knows next to nothing about this series, the best I can honestly agree to is a "possibly" rating for scaling as I think valid arguments have been brought fourth against the upgrade though I can see what the OP is suggesting. Due to my lack of knowledge though I can fully agree or disagree.
However, if I'm not mistaken, an attempt to delete the verse temporarily to start fresh is currently being discussed so I'm not sure if the outcome of this thread will have much impact.
However, if I'm not mistaken, an attempt to delete the verse temporarily to start fresh is currently being discussed so I'm not sure if the outcome of this thread will have much impact.
Hasty12345
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I appreciate your input, but when you read the whole sequence this is essentially some random guy claiming he can beat Mike Tyson and us taking it as valid.
Hades says multiple times he'd kill Shaka and Athena, Athena even confirms Hades would kill Shaka.
noninho
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Something I was thinking about (again, I'm really invested on this thing lol):
Hades gives actual geographical directions on where is elysium, and the only Hades location I know 100% surely is river styx.
Presuming Hades' room is on the same region as river Styx is (as its either that or more distant, as you'll see in a bit that if closer would be on the sea (and I don't think Poseidon would be 100% ok with it lol))... where is it?
Here:
Well, ok, we have both the input Hades called and a location (more or less) close to where Hades is. What does it mean?
Following this site's map, we can see its pretty distant, look:
(Dark-Blue is where Hades indicate Elysium is (above Acheron River) and purple is where I got from Google that River Styx is (inside the Achaia region, presuming one of the shortest distances possible)). We see some kilometers there!
"What. Do. You. Mean?"
Shaka says "we sensed your Cosmo", meaning both him and Athena from THAT distance could feel Hades' cosmo.
If both of them can do that and Hashun is no s***-ass cosmo reader as you guys are making him sound like, "I thought I felt Athena’s cosmo"+not shown where does he feel it (as, again, in both manga and anime he does that face for Shaka’s declaration)+the physical distance Hades himself helped me to (more or less) determine=he should be referring to when Athena was ANYWHERE in this distance, and is acceptable as it is not properly shown anywhere when Hades feels her cosmo.
That is my new input, I'll be answering the new ones made as I was writing this, now.
Also, I described on the end of the last page points i am sure I successfully defended. Instead of trying to nullify the feat with that "because yes" attitude, debunk them sounds more reasonable, no?
We see a reaction when Hades' soul says he wouldn't stop the Eclipse, both of his opponents surprised.
I have an example: you bump someone on the street and say "I will kill you right here right now" and the person feels clearly frightened. Someone comes in front of both, trying to stop the fight and the person says it back at you, but you're just right there and the other one is still just separating one another...
Were you menaced the same way? Yes with the same words, but in the same level? Nah.
You guys are not noticing how bad you're making Hades look, actually: associating "!!" with Athena coming closer just to treat her as inferior when she comes and prove himself a lame cosmo reader
Or a even worse cosmo reader when you say he was scared by Athena’s cosmo when he clearly says it was shaka's (what, he associates to Shaka alone a cosmo stated to be higher than all of the gold saints' together?)
It's the other way around, Athena confirms Shaka would be able to hurt his body but not the soul (obviously, because no gold guy scale to the soul of a god)
That+his reaction to Shaka's cosmo and statement=he could be left bodyless for a while!
And as it hasn't happened but we have a ton of evidence favoring this line, we gotta put the probably on both profiles!
Simple as that
Hades gives actual geographical directions on where is elysium, and the only Hades location I know 100% surely is river styx.
Presuming Hades' room is on the same region as river Styx is (as its either that or more distant, as you'll see in a bit that if closer would be on the sea (and I don't think Poseidon would be 100% ok with it lol))... where is it?
Here:
Well, ok, we have both the input Hades called and a location (more or less) close to where Hades is. What does it mean?
Following this site's map, we can see its pretty distant, look:
(Dark-Blue is where Hades indicate Elysium is (above Acheron River) and purple is where I got from Google that River Styx is (inside the Achaia region, presuming one of the shortest distances possible)). We see some kilometers there!
"What. Do. You. Mean?"
Shaka says "we sensed your Cosmo", meaning both him and Athena from THAT distance could feel Hades' cosmo.
If both of them can do that and Hashun is no s***-ass cosmo reader as you guys are making him sound like, "I thought I felt Athena’s cosmo"+not shown where does he feel it (as, again, in both manga and anime he does that face for Shaka’s declaration)+the physical distance Hades himself helped me to (more or less) determine=he should be referring to when Athena was ANYWHERE in this distance, and is acceptable as it is not properly shown anywhere when Hades feels her cosmo.
That is my new input, I'll be answering the new ones made as I was writing this, now.
As I saw you in the thread calling for the verse deletion, I called you here since this is a simple happening. May i put you on agree (as you see my point) or on neutral (as you feel insecure to vote on agreeing or disagreeing)?
Well, any changes when the verse is being reformed will be made through CRTs, and if this one is approved (as I think it should be) it will count as one of the recreating-our-verse CRTs (could I make myself understandable? If not, tell me and I try again)
Gotta say, I do too.
He did say he read the arguments.
Also, I described on the end of the last page points i am sure I successfully defended. Instead of trying to nullify the feat with that "because yes" attitude, debunk them sounds more reasonable, no?
To which we see any reaction? No.
We see a reaction when Hades' soul says he wouldn't stop the Eclipse, both of his opponents surprised.
I have an example: you bump someone on the street and say "I will kill you right here right now" and the person feels clearly frightened. Someone comes in front of both, trying to stop the fight and the person says it back at you, but you're just right there and the other one is still just separating one another...
Were you menaced the same way? Yes with the same words, but in the same level? Nah.
You guys are not noticing how bad you're making Hades look, actually: associating "!!" with Athena coming closer just to treat her as inferior when she comes and prove himself a lame cosmo reader
Or a even worse cosmo reader when you say he was scared by Athena’s cosmo when he clearly says it was shaka's (what, he associates to Shaka alone a cosmo stated to be higher than all of the gold saints' together?)
Where? Where does she say "watch out or he will end you, or anything of the sort?"
It's the other way around, Athena confirms Shaka would be able to hurt his body but not the soul (obviously, because no gold guy scale to the soul of a god)
That+his reaction to Shaka's cosmo and statement=he could be left bodyless for a while!
And as it hasn't happened but we have a ton of evidence favoring this line, we gotta put the probably on both profiles!
Simple as that
Hasty12345
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Why are you trying so hard to blatantly misrepresent Shaka’s power here? Athena verbatim states she will not let Hades kill Shaka implying she thinks Hades would win.
Shaka does not in any way scale to Hades here, you seriously need to drop it.
Hades is never once frightened, the dialogue never indicates this. His facial expression is the same expression every character in this manga has when their mouth is open. It’s not an indication of fright, it’s an indication of change of emotion at best.
The context here is Hades has told everyone to get lost and not disturb him because he’s tired, he’s far more likely to me annoyed than scared.
Athena would not plead with Hades to not kill everyone if she thought Shaka could beat him, it renders the whole sequence redundant.
Shaka does not in any way scale to Hades here, you seriously need to drop it.
Hades is never once frightened, the dialogue never indicates this. His facial expression is the same expression every character in this manga has when their mouth is open. It’s not an indication of fright, it’s an indication of change of emotion at best.
The context here is Hades has told everyone to get lost and not disturb him because he’s tired, he’s far more likely to me annoyed than scared.
Athena would not plead with Hades to not kill everyone if she thought Shaka could beat him, it renders the whole sequence redundant.
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You do realize the underworld doesn’t actually exist in the physical universe right?
Hasty12345
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The Underworld is a cave in Greece
noninho
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Mate, that's only part of her speech about how she's here to impede Hashun to kill everyone with the eclipse.
Also, if that was the case then why does Hashun react like that while speaking about "it can't be Virgo Shaka"?
Hades ≠ Hashun
You gotta understand that. I've stated more than once the differences.
Read. The page.
Hashun is all alone in the room and HE HAS AN INTERNAL SHOCK MONOLOGUE and a face RIGHT AFTER SHAKA'S DECLARATION.
Change to which emotion? Mate, you are the one who seriously gotta drop something: The excuses
You already called Hashun a bad Cosmo reader, you already associates this with how kurumada draws and until now you still say "Hades>Shaka" when if you read this thread you'll see I have conclusions that no-one showed doubt about until now, talking about the differences between Hashun and Hades or the other Hashun.
You also tried multiple times to invalidate me as an argumentation-presenter by calling my interpretation forced with no basis to this claim and even saying twice like I haven't even readed the thing I'm talking about.
YOU gotta drop this shit.
That is how you interpret that stuff, and I disagree with that interpretation 110% seeying what he himself says and how he reacts. That was also an excuse mentionable on the paragraph above.
That is a billion% untrue.
Athena’s point was to stop the Eclipse and save Shun (by her interpretation, saving the entire world), she stops him calling out Shun is still there while Shaka disagree saying Shun was entirely consumed by Hades. That is:
-on the pages I have given direction to in OP
-not even an interpretation, it's Athena not let Shun die
-does not leave the scene redundant as, once again I said multiple times on this thread already, what Shaka found as a solution would work but leave the soul ok as Hades' soul would not get damaged by Shaka, but the body would be killed, which would make Hades bodyless and take him multiple years to get a new one he finds fitting, and Athena’s solution was first khs and then, when she discovered she could, exorcise Hades' soul outta Shun and make him go to elysium!
Hasty12345
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This has gone on long enough.
Hades has a premonition, sensing a cosmo that startles him.
Then Hades confirms it was Athena's cosmo.
enough with this disingenuous argument. Hades on the panel confirms the cosmo that made him scared is Athena's.
case closed. Even if he initially thought it was Shaka's, he confirmed it was Athena's invalidating the interpretation he's scared of Shaka.
Hades has a premonition, sensing a cosmo that startles him.
Then Hades confirms it was Athena's cosmo.
enough with this disingenuous argument. Hades on the panel confirms the cosmo that made him scared is Athena's.
case closed. Even if he initially thought it was Shaka's, he confirmed it was Athena's invalidating the interpretation he's scared of Shaka.
noninho
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Point is
-who is saying "Virgo Shaka!!" and then reacting to his declaration? Hashun.
-if he felt sooooo intimidated just by Athena, how can he just "oh you came to surrender your life haven't you?"
-you as a Saint Seiya fan just like me know for a fact that the series is filled to brim with [not believing how strong the enemy is(or knowing its too strong and that he has no chance) and attacking]+"WOW MY ATTACK HAS NOT DONE NOTHING, NOT EVEN A SCRATCH! WE'RE SO SCREWED"
If he was not to do anything with his attacks, why would Kurumada not write on that way (just like he did on the Seiya fight that occurs at the same time) and why would athena worry stopping Shaka?
I find it more fitting that if Shaka were to not do anything with his attacks for uncapability, Hashun would be the one menacing Shaka and she'd come and say "nooooooo don't kill shakaaaaaa stop the Eclipse and end me insteeeeeaaaaaaad"
Hasty12345
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your interpretation is in-congruent with the manga.
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Profiles need updating, canon needs splitting into classic and spinoffs...and this is the thread that's taking all the energy
Hasty12345
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This thread has taken up too much time and the same chapter that he's using to argue his position debunks it in the same 10 page span.
noninho
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I have been talking respecting both how the author writes and what happens in the manga. How is it then?
Stop trying to invalidate me, counter the points I have made and have been making
I also have been spending a week of energy in here, the thing is that I consider this the first minor CRT to remake the verse!
Also, it is a "possibly" on both profiles, why do you guys who speak of "sparks of passion" feel so compelled to disagreeing with? I myself am working alone on two huge verses CRTs and I don't think this as a verse-revolutionary thing, nor make this outta spite
I do believe what I say happened and it's a feat potent enough for us to say "possibly". That's all.
Hasty12345
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Respectfully, I have. Hades was talking about Athena. Any other interpretation is straight up head canon.
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To go into detail on my reasoning for agreeing with a possibly rating, I fully understand the counter argument against the OP regarding who Hades sensed which is why I don't think a full on rating is accurate. However the reason I suggested possibly is because this Virgo character seems to know who Hades is and assumes he possess some capacity to kill him.
Now as I mentioned before, I have no knowledge on this series so I can't tell if this character is full of himself or what. The comments throughout the thread mention Gold Saints are trash to the gods but they apparently have outliers of affecting them but I myself don't know what we accept or not so I can't really say much regarding the general stance on if this works or not.
If Virgo is a fool and majority of the time Gold Saints are treated as trash to the Gods or at least this version of Hades and these saints are all comparable to one another then I'd disagree with scaling unless that changes. However if Virgo isn't someone who thinks highly of himself and it's possible for Gold Saints to reach the power needed to harm this Hades in some capacity then I think "possibly" still works.
Now as I mentioned before, I have no knowledge on this series so I can't tell if this character is full of himself or what. The comments throughout the thread mention Gold Saints are trash to the gods but they apparently have outliers of affecting them but I myself don't know what we accept or not so I can't really say much regarding the general stance on if this works or not.
If Virgo is a fool and majority of the time Gold Saints are treated as trash to the Gods or at least this version of Hades and these saints are all comparable to one another then I'd disagree with scaling unless that changes. However if Virgo isn't someone who thinks highly of himself and it's possible for Gold Saints to reach the power needed to harm this Hades in some capacity then I think "possibly" still works.
noninho
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This is a thing, yes
He is not the most powerful (but certainly top 5) Gold Saint, just the other ones were uncapable of trying what he tried.
Also, important thing: at that moment, Hades had his soul on the body of one of Athena's saints (and main protagonist) Andromeda Shun, and Athena herself points out before exorcising him from Shun's body that he was on the wrong body who's not intended to be his vessel, so it shouldn't compare to Hades himself (who (likely) at base bullied Athena and 5 God Cloth saints (God cloth>gold cloth) were nothing for him)
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So your current proposal is that "Shun-Hade's" durability does not scale above Thanatos and Hypnos and that Shaka could kill him?
Magicomethkuon
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Hades was shocked that Shaka, famous for his wisdom, was stupid enough to think that he could solo a God.
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The main reason I disagree, is because the previous chapter, a character comparable to Virgo could not damage hades in any way, even while hades only used 1/1000 of his total power. Virgo thinking he could defeat Hades must then be a case of Pis.
KingNanaya
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ain't the verse going through mass deletion?
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The only way that could possibly happen in the face of ikki being unable to even scratch him, is if Hades shun was holding back by more than a 1000 times. And thus there wouldn’t be any scaling anyways.
Well, we are going to bring the profiles back, just better. So I suppose the thread is relevant, as much as I disagree with the premise.
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Actually CIS (character induced stupidity) if Shaka thinks he could but in reality can't, but he's being a idiot because of the plot
Magicomethkuon
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Hashun was surprised when Shaka first arrived, but he was back to the condescending smile very fast afterwards. Hence I conclude that he was shocked by Shaka showing up in his throne room (he elaborates that he had thought Shaka was somewhere else, playing Athena's escort). And while it doesn't happen often, it wouldn't be the first time that Shaka thinks defeating someone would be easier than it actually is, like this one time when he thought that destroying Aioria with a single use of his weaker attack would be feasible and didn't even try Tenbu Hourin.
noninho
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Thing is that what I claim actually have 4 bases (Shaka saying, Athena calling out for the possibility of damage, Athena actually taking effort to stop the attacks, Hashun's reaction), which makes Shaka actually scaling higher than Ikki, on this case
This really would be believable to me
But Athena took the effort to stop him from attacking more than once AND say they'd not be ending his soul
So was Shaka, thats not an antifeat
Your interpretation, mine's different
How much time before the Hades Arc does this happen? Because as far as we know he also lost to ikki because of his proudness, but this is not a thing for his character after that point
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