[Saint Seiya] Giving Virgo Shaka "Possibly [same Hashun tier]"

[noninho]

How does a showing of hax mean anything for stats.

Gold saints are all somewhat comparable to each other (Hasty just said Shura is the strongest gold knight, Saga has a statement that his Galaxian Explosion is comparable to Temna Kofuku on his profile (poor Camus, I have no point for his strength here)) and he beat 3 of those until they were  purposefully forced to use an attack that need 3 gold saints to  then kill Shaka.
How doesn't that matter for anything to ya?

Ikki doesn’t have a silver cloth???

Oh, mb then. Even forgot what was my point with this.

Ohhhh so the 8th sense makes you 1000 times stronger. Good thing ikki has it then.

Didn't say that
Just that it's impossible for them not to have improved by any means
Even if so: doesn't negate that, again, the guy who is said to be 1000x stronger than Ikki felt fear when Shaka says he'll end him.

(Edit: will be going to sleep, good night from Brazil)

 

[Hasty12345]

Hasty just said Shura is the strongest gold knight

I definitely wasn't referring to the idiot in classic that's for sure.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Alright so, serious response.
Disagree with the CRT. First, it's important to mention that, obviously, confidence doesn't necessarily translate to ability. Shaka being confident he can take Shun-Hades down, and Shaka actually taking Shun-Hades down are two different things. Likewise, Shun-Hades' reaction doesn't prove anything. He could've been suprised a Gold Saint took initiative against him at all. None of these are actual concrete arguments for Shaka actually scaling.
But how feasible is it for Shaka to acatually scale? Let's find out.
One of the latest approved changes to the verse on the wiki was the acceptance of Unshakeable's canonicity blog, found in this thread. This blog argues that, in addition of a shared multiverse, the gods of Saint Seiya exist independent of timelines, and no alternate versions of their real selves exist in the multiverse. The exception being, of course, human hosts, which do have alternate selves. Why is this important? Because the Shun-Hades of Lost World, an alternate timeline seen in G Assassin, utterly demolished the Lost World God Cloth Saints:

And because there's only 1 real Hades, it means this is the same Hades that stood before Shaka in Classic. So, in order to scale him to Hades, we would have to scale Shaka above God Cloths. And we know 8th Sense users are inferior to God Cloths, this is something that you can infer pretty easily in Classic, and is flat out stated in a Shion Q&A:

The following is a translation of this scan done by Libra Jay, the translator responsible for the newer, quality English translations for Episode G.
"Q） 星矢たちの聖衣はアテナの血によって神聖衣へと進化を遂げましたが、
Q) The Cloths of Seiya and his friends evolved into God Cloths through Athena's blood.

白銀聖衣と黄金聖衣が神聖衣へと進化を遂げた事は過去にあったのでしょうか？
Have Silver and Gold Cloths ever evolved into God Cloths in the past?

また、鱗衣と冥衣も同様にポセイドン、ハーデスの血で進化するのでしょうか？
Do Scales and Surplices evolve likewise with Poseidon's and Hades's blood?

A） 理屈だけならば、アテナの血を受けることができれば白銀聖衣であろうと黄金聖衣であろうと神聖衣へと進化しても不思議はないじゃろう。
A) In theory, if either Silver or Gold Cloths received Athena's blood, it would not be surprising for them to evolve into God Cloths.

但し、聖衣がいくら進化してもそれを使いこなす聖闘士の小宇宙が高まりが伴わなければ、真の力を発揮することができないのじゃ。
However, no matter how much the Cloth evolves, it's only if the Saint raises their cosmo accordingly that its true power is revealed.

星矢たちが神聖衣を使うことができたのは、阿頼耶識をも超える次元にまで小宇宙を高めることができたからだということを忘れてはならんぞ。
Don't forget that Seiya and the others were only able to use their God Cloths because they raised their cosmo to a level beyond even the Arayashiki.

また、鱗衣、冥衣についても同様じゃ。
The same applies to Scales and Surplices."

Direct confirmation that God Cloths > 8th Sense.
TL;DR: It's not feasible for Shaka to scale to a full power Hades, even in a host body, at all. At least not at full power, but then Shaka wouldn't scale to his 2-C rating anyways.

 

[Lynieryz]

...

No, I agree that Shaka doesn't scale to amped Hashun but his durability[and consequently his attack] definitely scales to pre-amp Hashun because Shaka is comparable to Ikki and Ikki not only withstood several hits from Hashun but also he made Hashun have the need to amp himself so either you think that Ikki and Shaka>>> God Cloths or that the Hashun who defeated the god cloths had already amped himself.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shaka has no feats of being comparable to Ikki

 

[Lynieryz]

Shaka has no feats of being comparable to Ikki

Shaka > Saga

 

[Hasty12345]

Shaka > Saga

not true and doesn’t help your argument

 

[Lynieryz]

not true and doesn’t help your argument

"It's true and does help my argument"

 

[Hasty12345]

Shaka fans always find a way to ruin Shaka

 

[Lynieryz]

Shaka fans always find a way to ruin Shaka

What is your sign my dear sir?

 

[Hasty12345]

What is your sign my dear sir?

Scorpio

 

[Lynieryz]

Scorpio

Ahhh, I'm Libra I prefer any sign over this one I really can't care about Dohko.

 

[Huesito88]

Scorpio

Oh so that's why your old profile pic was Scorpion Mio

Godly Regen Shaka

 

[noninho]

At least not at full power, but then Shaka wouldn't scale to his 2-C rating anyways.

Then Shunades necessarily is L2-C, APwise, if Shaka can't be 2-C...because yes, he's not at full power as Athena herself says Shun's not his adequate vessel and, again, Shunades was threatened

Direct confirmation that God Cloths > 8th Sense

Cool! But let's remember that Shunades is not comparable to himself on the God cloths. Not just because of Shaka threat: let's make both Armor Hades and Armor Athena in Hades' room on the underworld, and let's see if Athena can do something even remotely close to what she did with Shunades.
Armor Hades=< Armor Athena> Hades' soul> Base Athena>>> God Cloths > Shaka > Shunades.
Not hard to understand. Not calling Shaka god level.

First, it's important to mention that, obviously, confidence doesn't necessarily translate to ability. Shaka being confident he can take Shun-Hades down, and Shaka actually taking Shun-Hades down are two different things

I agree 100% with you, but by nullifying Shaka's feat when clearly the opportunity was taken by Athena ordering him to stop and having to physically interfere when Shaka tried to attack him again and seeing Shunades reactions to both his simple approach and his threat? I don't think this is honest to the guy's strength.

Likewise, Shun-Hades' reaction doesn't prove anything. He could've been suprised a Gold Saint took initiative against him at all. None of these are actual concrete arguments for Shaka actually scaling.

It doesn't fit how Kurumada writes stuff and how people usually react. If he saw him as inferior but was surprised by Shaka's initiative, wouldn't his reaction be more like "Oh, really?" instead of literally having a short internal monologue literally being surprised by his Cosmo ("Don't tell me this cosmo's...Virgo Shaka!!" ->"I've come to Take your like, Hades!!"-> "!!")

not true

Justify why was Shaka winning the 3v1, then

And because there's only 1 real Hades, it means this is the same Hades that stood before Shaka in Classic

That one was the same Hades, yes, but in a different universe, afaik.
Haven't read G, but the regular cloth scaling for sure is different, and by consequence Gold's, God's and Vessel's are different, too (Via the simple logic that g is a different universe). Also, just like I proved that Shun's not the correct vessel for Hades (that's why he was much much weaker), can you prove that Hades was also on the same-level incorrect vessel, fighting same-level God cloths?
I'm really against comparing different universes, because despite the Hades being the same, every other being is not.

 

[AlexZiggy]

No, I agree that Shaka doesn't scale to amped Hashun but his durability[and consequently his attack] definitely scales to pre-amp Hashun because Shaka is comparable to Ikki and Ikki not only withstood several hits from Hashun but also he made Hashun have the need to amp himself so either you think that Ikki and Shaka>>> God Cloths or that the Hashun who defeated the god cloths had already amped himself.

You know outliers and PIS exist? Seiya scratched Thanatos before donning a God Cloth, you gonna argue base Seiya be 2-C aswell?
Also the fact Hades-Shun amped himself already makes how much power he was using at that time unknown. My overall point was that direct scaling to 2-C Hades was absurd, as God Cloths, things explicitly beyond the 8th Sense (and thus 8th Sense Cosmo), get horrifically stomped.
If Ikki tanked some blows from Hades-Shun, they simply weren't from the full 2-C Hades, and neither should scale

 

[Huesito88]

"You know outliers and PIS exist? Seiya scratched Thanatos before donning a God Cloth, you gonna argue base Seiya be 2-C aswell?"

Wait your right huh, so both Ikki and Seiya scratched Thanatos....

 

[noninho]

You know outliers and PIS exist? Seiya scratched Thanatos before donning a God Cloth, you gonna argue base Seiya be 2-C aswell?

Oh, you're comparing a scratch to Hashun* feeling threatened. That really sounds unfair to me.

Also the fact Hades-Shun amped himself already makes how much power he was using at that time unknown. My overall point was that direct scaling to 2-C Hades was absurd, as God Cloths, things explicitly beyond the 8th Sense (and thus 8th Sense Cosmo), get horrifically stomped.
If Ikki tanked some blows from Hades-Shun, they simply weren't from the full 2-C Hades, and neither should scale

That+Athena herself saying Shun's not his adequate vessel means(+Shaka's feat) means...
Either Hashun is not 2-C, because he's a weaker version of a God that was so much weaker that Shaka could threat him and Ikki could tank some of his blows
Or
Shaka is 2-C for being able to make a 2-C guy feel threatened when he said he came to take his life and we cite on Ikki's profile, 8th sense key, that he could somewhat take Hashun's hits

 

[Lynieryz]

You know outliers and PIS exist? Seiya scratched Thanatos before donning a God Cloth, you gonna argue base Seiya be 2-C aswell?
Also the fact Hades-Shun amped himself already makes how much power he was using at that time unknown. My overall point was that direct scaling to 2-C Hades was absurd, as God Cloths, things explicitly beyond the 8th Sense (and thus 8th Sense Cosmo), get horrifically stomped.
If Ikki tanked some blows from Hades-Shun, they simply weren't from the full 2-C Hades, and neither should scale

You just repeated what I said with different words, how did you come to the conclusion that I disagree with what you just said?

My point is that both pre-amp Hashun and amped Hashun don't scale to Hades, that's all.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Armor Hades=< Armor Athena> Hades' soul> Base Athena>>> God Cloths > Shaka > Shunades.

Except LW Hades-Shun is very much >>> God Cloths, and because of the singular nature of StS gods, this too applies to Classic. Your justification for this chain seems to be this:

but the regular cloth scaling for sure is different, and by consequence Gold's, God's and Vessel's are different, too (Via the simple logic that g is a different universe

Except "different universe" doesn't really affect the mechanism behind God Cloths, so unless you want to contest the idea that the basic logic of "more Cosmo = higher AP/Dura" is a thing in G, I don't see how this affects their scaling. And seeing that the god is the same, the only other variable here seems to be how much of Hades' power Shun was actually using. And if It's not full power, I don't see why Shaka should scale to his 2-C rating at all

I agree 100% with you, but by nullifying Shaka's feat when clearly the opportunity was taken by Athena ordering him to stop and having to physically interfere when Shaka tried to attack him again and seeing Shunades reactions to both his simple approach and his threat?

Feeling threatened is still not a feat, and I already explained why this version of Hades-Shun likely doesn't scale to 2-C. You said it yourself, Shun hadn't really become Hades' full vessel, that alone should disprove that the Hades they faced wasn't 2-C Hades

 

[noninho]

My point is that both pre-amp Hashun and amped Hashun don't scale to Hades, that's all.

As I've been telling with
-Scaling chains
-citations from the fight
-scans from the fight

And it's been called more than once a "forced interpretation with no basis".
Shaka scales to THE ONE HE THREATENED, not to the guy who fought Armored Athena and f***** Seiya

 

[AlexZiggy]

My point is that both pre-amp Hashun and amped Hashun don't scale to Hades, that's all.

The profile does, though, and that's what the OP is working with.

 

[StekFence]

Haven't read G, but the regular cloth scaling for sure is different, and by consequence Gold's, God's and Vessel's are different, too (Via the simple logic that g is a different universe). Also, just like I proved that Shun's not the correct vessel for Hades (that's why he was much much weaker), can you prove that Hades was also on the same-level incorrect vessel, fighting same-level God cloths?

The guy who faced shaka was hades shun. The guy who also killed the god cloths was Hades shun. The argument that Shun isn’t the right host doesn’t apply, because in both cases, we are talking about shun. Literally the same guy possessing the same host. Also, the burden is on YOU to prove that the god cloths hades shun faced were any different than normal. After all, your the one making the claim that assumes so.

 

[Hasty12345]

Justify why was Shaka winning the 3v1, then

The fact you’re even asking me to do so tells me you don’t understand the events of the story and the whole purpose of those 2 volumes whatsoever.

 

[Hasty12345]

You just repeated what I said with different words, how did you come to the conclusion that I disagree with what you just said?

My point is that both pre-amp Hashun and amped Hashun don't scale to Hades, that's all.

No one is saying he does…

I already explained the scaling chain.

 

[Lynieryz]

And I'm not sure if Hashun from the classic scales to Hashun from Lost World because the LW world wasn't already devastated? And I vaguely remember that Hades grows stronger with the number of deaths?[Something similar to that, I don't remember exactly]

Can anyone confirm if this is wrong or right? I'm relying on my memory so it's not very reliable

 

[StekFence]

And I vaguely remember that Hades grows stronger with the number of deaths?[Something similar to that, I don't remember exactly]

Honestly I don’t remember anything like that at all

 

[Lynieryz]

Honestly I don’t remember anything like that at all

nevermind then I would have to reread everything to find it, and I'm too lazy to reread it, eventually I'll reread it, just not now.

 

[noninho]

Except LW Hades-Shun is very much >>> God Cloths, and because of the singular nature of StS gods, this too applies to Classic.

The guy who faced shaka was hades shun. The guy who also killed the god cloths was Hades shun.

Same Hades, different Shun...I've said that earlier.

The argument that Shun isn’t the right host doesn’t apply, because in both cases, we are talking about shun. Literally the same guy possessing the same host.

You gotta understand that different universes scale different. It was stated that Hades is the same in all universes? Cool. Shun is not.
If on Assassin's universe Hades+Shun>God Cloths, good for it. On Classic's, Athena said that he's not to be Hades' host and he was threatened by Shaka. Simple as that.
If Shun's still not meant to be Hades host on Assassin's universe, it just means that being on Assassin's universe Shun nerfs Hades less than being on Classic's.

Also, the burden is on YOU to prove that the god cloths hades shun faced were any different than normal. After all, your the one making the claim that assumes so.

You have done it for me.
If a different Shun nerfs the same Hades differently, than that means (for better or for worse) Assassin's God Cloths are on a different level than Classic's God Cloths as, once again, Assassin's Hashun is on a different level than Classic's Hashun (one beats God Cloths and the other fears Shaka (which makes Classic's Gold Saints scale different than Assassin's)

The fact you’re even asking me to do so tells me you don’t understand the events of the story and the whole purpose of those 2 volumes whatsoever.

The way you’re presenting yourself on this debate is almost only answerable on the same way (delivering one line as it ended the opposing argument for sure). If you don't think it's cool, you're free to go elsewhere, don't need to worry about how you're try again to call me dumb or anything of the sort.

Except "different universe" doesn't really affect the mechanism behind God Cloths

It doesn't need to affect (detailed more on this post)

And seeing that the god is the same, the only other variable here seems to be how much of Hades' power Shun was actually using. And if It's not full power, I don't see why Shaka should scale to his 2-C rating at all

Yes; then Classic's Hashun should be on L2-C because he was threatened by Shaka and, as we all know here, Hashun (in either Assassin or Classic) cannot access Hades' full powers.
If G and Classic's Hashun gotta be on the same profile, Hades should have at least 3 keys on his profile:
" Classic Hashun | Assassin Hashun | Hades
AP: L2-C (was threatened by Virgo Shaka and had his soul removed by Base Athena) | 2-C (beaten xyz on God Cloths) | 2-C (all the justification for Hades to be on this tier)"

Or, if Classic's Hashun is 100% 2-C, Shaka MUST have it on his profile
"AP: Blablabla L2-C (all justification for him to be this tier) Possibly 2-C (Threatened Classic's Hashun, though Athena didn't let Shaka attack him properly)

 

[Hasty12345]

The way you’re presenting yourself on this debate is almost only answerable on the same way (delivering one line as it ended the opposing argument for sure). If you don't think it's cool, you're free to go elsewhere, don't need to worry about how you're try again to call me dumb or anything of the sort.

I never called you dumb or anything of the sort. Lots of powerscalers only care about the feats but the context of the fight invalidates any legitimate scaling between Shaka and Saga in that encounter.

Saga never even used Galaxian explosion, the whole purpose of the fight was to convince Hades they had forsaken themselves as Saints, assist Shaka in infiltrating the UW and in doing so give Athena the resolve to carry out her unaliving.

They were being spied on by Hades the whole time, it was an act.

Outside of this encounter which isn’t valid for scaling, Saga is definitively the strongest Gold Saint between them as stated numerous times throughout Kurumada’s works. Ikki is above both of them regardless of who’s stronger and Shunades was holding back against both Ikki and Shaka and he made Ikki look like a child.

I’m not even sure Hades was scared of Shaka or his cosmo at all, I’d have to reread the fight but iirc it was Athena’s cosmo he felt that caused him to be concerned.

The premise of this CRT is entirely unfounded, there is no valid scaling between Shaka and Shunades in any capacity, and there never will be regardless of what tiers they end up when the profiles return/get fixed or whatever ends up happening to them.

 

[noninho]

I’m not even sure Hades was scared of Shaka or his cosmo at all, I’d have to reread the fight but iirc it was Athena’s cosmo he felt that caused him to be concerned.

That's xxiaa whole point, he tried telling it to me page by page here (than I think reading from there you'll be more up to date with the fight). I strongly disagree as it'd imply that outta nowhere Hashun is a bad Cosmo reader (remember that earlier on this thread there was one of you guys who got Aiolia (I think) saying Athena’s cosmo is bigger than the 12 gold saints together, how would Hades confuse that and just one of them?)

They were being spied on by Hades the whole time

Shaka's a hella good actor too lol
Just like he said, I thought he wasn't spying the saints after Shaka killed those spectres who thought Hades made them Immortal. That's my bad.

Shunades was holding back against both Ikki and Shaka and he made Ikki look like a child.

To this day i can only see that ikki outdid Shaka because of the latter's proudness (Saga iirc also was beating him), and I already said I stand for that they're more powerful there than on Sanctuary saga.
The most important: you cannot say for sure he was holding back against Shaka (since its imprecise where does exactly he feels Athena’s cosmo, but let's remember he has Precognition, for starters (btw, my line of thought is that the scene cuts back and they're smirking at each other, it's because he felt Athena coming (both via cosmo reading and Precognition) and via precog, he knew she'd order him to stop his attack, and) since there's no indication of that.

The premise of this CRT is entirely unfounded, there is no valid scaling between Shaka and Shunades in any capacity, and there never will be regardless of what tiers they end up when the profiles return/get fixed or whatever ends up happening to them.

You're saying this outta nowhere, because there is both Hades' reaction AND statement, both about facing Shaka.
There's also been proved on this very thread that
-Shun's nerfing Hades/Hades is not on his full power;
-Classic Shun nerfs Hades more than Assassin Shun;
-This being scaled as it is doesn't affect Full-Power Hades in any level (which I may say you guys' defense do: make him look like a horrible cosmo reader, say that Shun and the other bronzes are the exact same on Classic and Assassin, and some others)
-if we consider that necessarily Saga> Shaka, we could put Saga on this situation too, if it wasn't for the fact that he died on Sanctuary saga and was used on this situation (all iirc)

 

[noninho]

Dunno if this is considered early-bumping
I'd just like to point out how much any mod opinion is really welcome here since the discussion began to feel circular for a long time

 

[Hasty12345]

you should go to some mods walls and ask them to comment.

 

[noninho]

Bump

Edit: I've edited OP, on my proposal part.
(Been thinking and rethinking this since, despite not actually been a cool thread to discuss, it's the only who caught my interest lol) I think we must now put them both at the same tier but with a "Possibly" (since Athena didn't let him complete any action against Hades but the latter felt threatened). Here goes what I think, changing a bit what I've said earlier

If G and Classic's Hashun gotta be on the same profile, Hades should have at least 3 keys on his profile:
" Classic Hashun | Assassin Hashun | Hades
AP: Possibly L2-C (was threatened by Virgo Shaka and had his soul removed by Base Athena) 2-C (all the justification we have for this) | 2-C (beaten xyz on God Cloths) | 2-C (all the justification for Hades to be on this tier)"

Or, if Classic's Hashun is 100% 2-C, Shaka MUST have it on his profile
"AP: Blablabla L2-C (all justification for him to be this tier) Possibly 2-C (Threatened Classic's Hashun, though Athena didn't let Shaka attack him properly)

 

[noninho]

Think I can bump after 8h..?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Think I can bump after 8h..?

Yes

 

[noninho]

Tbf I know (/90% sure) mods will be agreeing with the knowledgeable members not with me
I just want them to end this lmao

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Likely yes
btw, if you just want to end the thread you could simple ask someone to close it

 

[noninho]

Likely yes
btw, if you just want to end the thread you could simple ask someone to close it

Tbh I would do this, yes, if it wasn't for the fact I'm 100% sure I'm right, even more after refuting what the other side presented (at least in my view).
The fact I pretty sure they'll vote against my proposal may be due to anxiety+the majority being against it

Edit: I asked for 3 or more admins/mods to come here, would be really funny if they came here faster to close it than to say anything

 

[Hasty12345]

What refutation?

 

[noninho]

What refutation?

Speaking more about that I'm not scaling Shaka to a complete God, the difference between the Hashun who defeated God Clothes and this one, that I'm not forcing any interpretation and why, that why is most likely he's not disturbed by Athena’s cosmo despite the manga not confirming at what point he feels her cosmo...
If I forgot anything, sorry.
If you don't count them as refutations, remember that claim is

in my view