[Saint Seiya] Giving Virgo Shaka "Possibly [same Hashun tier]"

[StekFence]

except Hades would know about tenbu horin, given that he’s done this dance since the age of myth. And he still felt like he could just sit there.

 

[noninho]

Him being above Hypnos and Thanatos by itself should already block any Gold Saint to fully scaling to his power, considering Thanatos' feats against the Bronze Saints later.

Would you kindly present evidence that Classic Hashun> Hypnos and Thanatos? I couldn't find it on research and will try reading the manga for it later today

And all of the information presented here doesn't quite show a clear scaling between these two, Shaka is confident yes, so was Hades, and I fail to understand why we should look at only one side of that confidence even when it breaks the overall scaling

I have said earlier:
Fits how the author writes stuff (Athena herself says that he would be only hitting the body, which he didn't mind because he thought there was no Shun there any longer, and if Shaka's attacks were to be ineffective, it would present that and then Athena would come), does not break any scaling chains (as Hashun is not treated as a God in some other Saint Seiya media, so i would not be meaning Shaka>Hypno, for example, just that a much much weakened weakened Hades could be defeated by Shaka via being on Shun's body, that is not meant to be his vessel) and would not be lowballing Hades himself (we have seen a nice feat when it was just his soul, right after Athena exorcising it off Shun's body (forcefully bringing base Athena to Elysium), and we saw him easily defeating the god cloths, while this weakened state of his got somewhat tanked by Ikki)

True, just thought I'd point out that Shaka did have an idea on "Shun-Hades" power, from it rising from way above Ikki level to 1000 times said "above that starting effort", prior to confronting him.

Yeah and I mean, the guy was surprised after all by his claim. Sure, when it came back to them, they were both smirking, but I really attribute that to Hashun not expecting Shaka to attack him (He says that when Athena grabs the lance and on the anime he is shown to be surprised again when shaka is almost attacking)
I am really thinking I'm not proposing a ridiculous thing here, today.

Even so, Shaka has win cons outside of his ability to harm HadeShun, like Tenbu Horin which HadesShun has no defense against.

Yeah!
And the fight was not concluded, so we do not know how would Hashun be affected by those attacks from Shaka (I tend to think he would start with tenbu horin but I am not sure what attack was he planning)
That is why I'm putting just a possibly if not in just one, in both profiles!

except Hades would know about tenbu horin, given that he’s done this dance since the age of myth. And he still felt like he could just sit there.

I cannot agree with you on this one
Hades felt Athena coming from we-don't-even-know-how-distant and even after making that face for her cosmo, he was still just sitting down too
If there is a thing he is presenting here, is confidence. Confidence that Athena was much weaker than him and had nothing she could do against him, confidence that Shaka would not attack him at all (two times, that is).

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah!
And the fight was not concluded, so we do not know how would Hashun be affected by those attacks from Shaka (I tend to think he would start with tenbu horin but I am not sure what attack was he planning)
That is why I'm putting just a possibly if not in just one, in both profiles!

TH would not equate to AP scaling or durability being downgraded.

 

[noninho]

TH would not equate to AP scaling or durability being downgraded.

If we were at like 3-C or some tiers that used values, I'd suggest just calling it a +
(Example: if Shaka's at 5-B and Hades at 5-A, with this evidence I'd propose calling 5-B+ (AP ceiling or close to it)), but as we're not talking about values because there is none, I suggest the possibly.
If this didn't mean any changes on Hades profile (and Hashun's key, by consequence), just call for this possibility in Shaka's, would you be more inclined to feel OK with?

 

[Hasty12345]

If we were at like 3-C or some tiers that used values, I'd suggest just calling it a +
(Example: if Shaka's at 5-B and Hades at 5-A, with this evidence I'd propose calling 5-B+ (AP ceiling or close to it)), but as we're not talking about values because there is none, I suggest the possibly.

So you think this should just arbitrarily buff Shaka with no quantifiable feats at all, lets be clear here, there's no feat here. At all.

If this didn't mean any changes on Hades profile (and Hashun's key, by consequence), just call for this possibility in Shaka's, would you be more inclined to feel OK with?

No, I don't think this interaction warrants any change to Shaka's profile at all, I've been very adamant on that.

The worst part is, the current scaling chain on Shunades being > Twins makes your argument even worse than the scaling chain I plan on implementing. You cannot scale Shaka above the twin gods, which is what you're asking us to do. That is so wrong I hope I don't have to explain it.

Bottom line is, I personally will not agree with this scaling at all.

To avoid coming across as though I'm stonewalling, I won't comment here again

 

[noninho]

So you think this should just arbitrarily buff Shaka with no quantifiable feats at all, lets be clear here, there's no feat here. At all.

If Athena let them fight we would see if this was something that would actually be a feat for Hashun (be more on the level of Hypno and Thanatos, who bullied gold armors) or a feat for Shaka. I claim that possibilities should be pointed out (even if it means buffing both on that "possibly").

You cannot scale Shaka above the twin gods, which is what you're asking us to do. That is so wrong I hope I don't have to explain it.

Before you never post here again:
I asked for a guy today and now I ask for you: can you please provide scans of Hashun>Twin Gods?

 

[Lynieryz]

She doesn’t say that, you’re completely misreading the scan.

She’s saying they couldn’t kill hades without hurting shun, not that they could damage Shunades.

Even if you take that statement at its most literal, she’s not even saying Shaka can hurt Hades, she saying both of them if they could, they would only hurt Shun.

There’s no evidence in this interaction to suggest Shaka is putting up a fight, and the scaling chain would prove that beyond reasonable doubt.

A scaling chain that will be implemented when some staff get to my current CRT so I can move on.

I don't know if I'm reading from a wrong translation but where are you getting that hurting Shun is something separate from hurting Hades in this case?

1 The two are literally in the same body unless you think that Hashun has the same durability as Shun, which is not the case.

2 Athena knows very well Hashun's strength and yet she did not consider Shaka incapable of hurting Hashun's physical body, Athena said that it is possible that Shaka is capable of hurting Hashun and stated that the problem is that Shaka is incapable of hurting Hades' soul.

 

[noninho]

I mean, I wouldn't use this scan
But with the one the opposing side provided, I reached the exact same conclusions

 

[Hasty12345]

Athena said that it is possible that Shaka i

She says "we", she is not indicating Shaka alone is capable of harming Shunades. Please use the official translations were possible.

Before you never post here again:
I asked for a guy today and now I ask for you: can you please provide scans of Hashun>Twin Gods?

Again, it's what's accepted on the profile, I don't necessarily agree with it, however, you are by arguing Shaka can harm or rival Shunades also claiming he can beat the twins.

However, Shunades defeating Ikki is enough to say Shaka cannot do anything to Shunades without resorting to hax, thus meaning his AP will not and cannot scale.

 

[noninho]

also claiming he can beat the twins.

Please provide evidence that they are in the same tier. Even other media treats hades>twins>hashun

She says "we", she is not indicating Shaka alone is capable of harming Shunades. Please use the official translations were possible.

She is indicating that both of them are capable of it.
If that was the entire basis, i would even agree, but that+Athena feeling the need to impede shaka+Hades reaction to the threat indicates me the contrary, my g

 

[Hasty12345]

To avoid coming across as though I'm stonewalling, I won't comment here again

 

[noninho]

To avoid coming across as though I'm stonewalling, I won't comment here again

Sure, ty for the contributions

 

[Lynieryz]

She says "we", she is not indicating Shaka alone is capable of harming Shunades.

and? She is also including Shaka if only she was capable of hurting Hashun's body she wouldn't include Shaka in what she said.

And where can I find the official translation? I only find the one I posted.

 

[Hasty12345]

and? She is also including Shaka if only she was capable of hurting Hashun's body she wouldn't include Shaka in what she said.

And where can I find the official translation? I only find the one I posted.

viz

Sure, ty for the contributions

I will fix the scaling chain, but as I said, the result will be the same for Shaka whether or not HaShun is above the twins.

 

[noninho]

Iirc it shoukd be Alone Key that is 2-C

So, if I'm understanding correctly, OP's proposal is to scale Shaka to 2-C for being able to "surprise" hades while saying he has come to kill him?

@Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist @DemonGodMitchAubin @Emirp sumitpo @KingTempest @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa

I've been asked to ping you guys.

Do you guys mind being put as neutral and make inputs later?

 

[Huesito88]

Iirc it shoukd be Alone Key that is 2-C

Hey Unshakable do you believe the Viz translations here are reliable enough? (Just double checking)

 

[noninho]

Poor unshakable, she's been @ 3 times here

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Hey Unshakable do you believe the Viz translations here are reliable enough? (Just double checking)

Important things should be double checked

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Here is the raw

Virgo Shaka: 今や心身ともに完璧にハーデスに支配されている瞬の骸にすぎないのです本当の瞬は既に死んだも同然むしろ ここで ハーデスを打ち砕く ことを望んでくれている はずです

Athena: けれど今攻撃を加えたとしても瞬の中のハーデスは容易に打ち砕けないでしょうただいたずらに瞬の肉体を傷つけるだけにすぎませんだから…

 

[noninho]

Doesn't mean much as Google Translate is not a 100% good translator
But if "he" means Shaka by any mean, this is even better for my argument than the "we"

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Would you kindly present evidence that Classic Hashun> Hypnos and Thanatos? I couldn't find it on research and will try reading the manga for it later today

Check Hades profile ? Currently he is listed as stronger than both

Thing is, I wouldn't be that much against this if you added this important part on the OP, if your upgrade changes the overall scaling of other characters, you need to cover that aswell, the burden of proof is on you against everything that is currently added on the profiles

So tell me, can we scale Hades-Shun lower than the Twin Gods ?

 

[StekFence]

I mean, besides for this specific instance, nothing really implies he is, hades shun actually defeats 4 god cloth saints in GA. And Hades ikki is a threat to Zeus, tho thats prob just ikki being ikki. Alone is also god cloth level with his armor on, and he’s not even fully possessed I’m pretty sure. And again, it’s pretty clear he’s above the level of a gold saint, since he no sells attacks from ikki.

 

[noninho]

So tell me, can we scale Hades-Shun lower than the Twin Gods ?

Yeah. If you don't count "was surprised by Virgo Shaka claiming to end him", you can count armorless Athena being able to exorcise Hades' soul from this body with not that much difficulty, and she can't exactly put up any fight against Hades himself while armorless.
Twins> Base Athena>Shaka [possibly]>= Hashun

hades shun actually defeats 4 god cloth saints in GA. And Hades ikki is a threat to Zeus, tho thats prob just ikki being ikki. Alone is also god cloth level with his armor on, and he’s not even fully possessed I’m pretty sure

Once again: GA is a different Shun, different every single thing other than Hades, which is the exact same due to being a god.

And again, it’s pretty clear he’s above the level of a gold saint, since he no sells attacks from ikki.

Well, Shaka is above the average gold saint level (to say the least) and could pull this off with his hax, possibly
That's what I aim, with this

 

[noninho]

A genuine question:
I shouldn't be bothering more mods (as there is 1 who positioned himself, (Counting TH) 2 that didn't make any inputs, 6 who were @ 'd and, one to @ some others and another one who did this favor here) right?

 

[Lynieryz]

A genuine question:
I shouldn't be bothering more mods (as there is 1 who positioned himself, (Counting TH) 2 that didn't make any inputs, 6 who were @ 'd and, one to @ some others and another one who did this favor here) right?

For this thread to have a conclusion regardless of whether it is approved or rejected, more mods have to vote.

 

[noninho]

For this thread to have a conclusion regardless of whether it is approved or rejected, more mods have to vote.

Yeah but I don't know if I should be going to more walls to bother people and maybe be called a spammer

 

[StekFence]

Once again: GA is a different Shun

Please name a single way they are different, other then existing in a verse where aiolos didnt die.

Well, Shaka is above the average gold saint level (to say the least)

I genuinely mean ikki is above every classic gold saint.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Poor unshakable, she's been @ 3 times here

Been busy with a lot of irl problems

 

[noninho]

Please name a single way they are different, other then existing in a verse where aiolos didnt die.

That's Butterfly effect, there's your difference
Sike. Jokes apart: a Hashun who bullies God Cloths > (or at least just ≠) a Hashun that gets exorcised by armorless Athena (and threatened by Virgo Shaka), becomes his true self  then bullies God Cloths
I think it's a big enough difference, and I remind you I didn't even read that manga yet, but I mean, just from that we necessarily face differences in scaling...and as I'm pretty used to say at this point: I've already mentioned this earlier (more than once iirc)

I genuinely mean ikki is above every classic gold saint.

Hm. You gotta back it up with more than:
-shaka fight
-that judge fight
-getting bullied by Hashun and
-getting bullied by Hades while in God cloth.

Then still explain why Athena called out that Shaka is able to possibly leave Hades bodyless and Hades felt threatened by his...threat.

 

[noninho]

Been busy with a lot of irl problems

I wish the best of lucks to ya

 

[noninho]

For this thread to have a conclusion regardless of whether it is approved or rejected, more mods have to vote.

Would you mind calling anyone here?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Would you mind calling anyone here?

Your best chances to get more staff reading the CRT is now to avoid derail and present (both sides of the argument) a tldr so they can base their thoughts, considering this already has 6 pages

I can try to call Ultima, but he's usually super busy

 

[noninho]

Your best chances to get more staff reading the CRT is now to avoid derail and present (both sides of the argument) a tldr so they can base their thoughts, considering this already has 6 pages

I can try to call Ultima, but he's usually super busy

Was thinking about remaking the OP, guess I'll do it today

 

[Catzlaflame]

@Lynieryz I was gonna comment, but I suppose I’ll wait for this:

Was thinking about remaking the OP, guess I'll do it today

As it stands the op has scans from a source I recall others have referred to as non-cannon. Moreover, it’s in a different language. That really needs to be fixed. Also, given the following comment:

avoid derail

I’m led to believe that the 6 pages of discussions may not be entirely relevant. If someone could link the relevant posts, as well that’d be appreciated.

Additionally, idk if anyone else remembers, but from the last SS thread I was asked to comment in Ant said the following:

Well, I do want you to make our Saint Seiya profiles much more reliable, so if you send me a PM after you start your revisions of its character profile pages, and remind me of this message in conjunction, I will very likely approve your replacements for their content.

If you cannot get the proper evaluations from thread mods/admins then I’d recommend taking advantage of this.

 

[noninho]

@Lynieryz I was gonna comment, but I suppose I’ll wait for this:

As it stands the op has scans from a source I recall others have referred to as non-cannon. Moreover, it’s in a different language. That really needs to be fixed. Also, given the following comment:

I’m led to believe that the 6 pages of discussions may not be entirely relevant. If someone could link the relevant posts, as well that’d be appreciated.

Additionally, idk if anyone else remembers, but from the last SS thread I was asked to comment in Ant said the following:

If you cannot get the proper evaluations from thread mods/admins then I’d recommend taking advantage of this.

Thank you. Maybe there are other members helping, but afaik mainly @Hasty12345 is working on a verse-wise remake, so please call him out with this your too.
I will be remaking the OP asap, ty for your suggestion (and when I get it right, I will be calling you)

 

[Hasty12345]

If you cannot get the proper evaluations from thread mods/admins then I’d recommend taking advantage of this.

I was hoping to not need to bother Ant but I can’t get my CRT off the ground either

 

[noninho]

@Lynieryz I was gonna comment, but I suppose I’ll wait for this:

As it stands the op has scans from a source I recall others have referred to as non-cannon. Moreover, it’s in a different language. That really needs to be fixed. Also, given the following comment:

I’m led to believe that the 6 pages of discussions may not be entirely relevant. If someone could link the relevant posts, as well that’d be appreciated.

Additionally, idk if anyone else remembers, but from the last SS thread I was asked to comment in Ant said the following:

If you cannot get the proper evaluations from thread mods/admins then I’d recommend taking advantage of this.

Hi
Op got updated
Is it now good enough?

 

[noninho]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, OP's proposal is to scale Shaka to 2-C for being able to "surprise" hades while saying he has come to kill him?

Dereck, OP got updated
Could I call your input here, now?

@Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist @DemonGodMitchAubin @Emirp sumitpo @KingTempest @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa

I've been asked to ping you guys.

Planck, as none of them could come here, could I call you? OP got a recent update

 

[Catzlaflame]

Hi
Op got updated
Is it now good enough?

Scans are required when making a CRT, please include those. You don't need to link the manga panels themselves, just take screenshots and upload it to imgur (no account needed).

To reiterate, you're points are:

• Hades was intimidated by the threat against his life (as evidenced by his shocked expression)
• Virgo Shaka was very confident he would win (i.e., he fought using his skills/powers alone

If there is anyhting else, please mention it and expand a bit on it.

@Hasty12345 Could you please summarize the opposition ?

If I'm being honest your OP still includes lore-heavy stuff with no explanations. Like who is saori? she was mentioned seemingly out of nowhere. Same thing with athena. What does Athena not interveing mean? if these points are not actually impacting the OP, they only serve to confuse readers who are not familiar with the series. You need to understand, most staff know nothing about this series.

(Also, I have a lot of work to do today so replies may be intermittent)

 

[Hasty12345]

The opposition is essentially there’s no feat in this interaction that suggests Shaka scales.

• Hades’ “supposed “shock” is most likely (however there are other interpretations) due to mistaking Shaka’s cosmo as Athena’s which he himself confirms he was sensing Athena’s cosmo not Shaka’s.
• this version of Hades had previously defeated a character on screen who is stronger than Shaka just moments before Shaka showed up, as well as has accepted scaling on this site that places him above Shaka by very literally infinite power.
• Shaka declaring he will kill Hades is meaningless when he has 0 supporting feats, scaling and actual feats would contradict interpreting this declaration as an actual fact.
• no action is taken by either side and the closest thing we have to a feat in the whole scene is Athena catching a trident thrown by Hades.
• and finally when you read the whole interaction, Hades’ supposed “shock” or “fright” from Shaka is more adequately interpreted as him being dumbfounded someone would disturb him after he told Pandora to tell everyone to not disturb him and/or he’s dumbfounded a Gold Saint would even attempt to fight him alone.

In summary. Due to the lack of feats performed by Shaka and the fact this Hades had beaten someone who is stronger than him and has other accepted scaling that places him above the likes of any Gold Saint tier character, along with the myriad of other far more consistent interpretations for this scene, there’s no reason why Shaka should scale.