[Saint Seiya] Giving Virgo Shaka "Possibly [same Hashun tier]"

[Lynieryz]

To reiterate, you're points are:

• Hades was intimidated by the threat against his life (as evidenced by his shocked expression)
• Virgo Shaka was very confident he would win (i.e., he fought using his skills/powers alone

There's that too↓↓↓

On the next chapter (95, page 4) Athena says they wouldn't damage Hades' Soul (which is the god in fact), but would the body (that is Shun, who he believed was no more and didn't mind destroying)

as this form of Hades is much MUCH weaker than Hades himself (as it was exorcised by armorless Athena, while Hades on his body demolished Athena until she got her armor)

 

[noninho]

Scans are required when making a CRT, please include those. You don't need to link the manga panels themselves, just take screenshots and upload it to imgur (no account needed).

Saint Seiya has a ton of (mis)translations, so I avoid posting/using on the arguments scans other than Viz
@Xxiaa posted some but unfortunately the link isn't working, or else I would use them for sure

If there is anyhting else, please mention it and expand a bit on it.

It is pretty much it, other points were called out on OP only for reinforcing why what I claim is feasible and propable

If I'm being honest your OP still includes lore-heavy stuff with no explanations. Like who is saori?

I have never mentioned that name in OP, but she's Athena.

Same thing with athena. What does Athena not interveing mean? if these points are not actually impacting the OP, they only serve to confuse readers who are not familiar with the series. You need to understand, most staff know nothing about this series.

I actually called out that she intervenes and the moment that she does is pretty important, because (as I called out either) means she thinks Shaka would affect Shun's body. It is actually twice that she does it, but I didn't need to call that on OP for the sake of keeping it more clean. Other than that, what would you suggest changing?

 

[noninho]

I know Hasty said he would not* be posting here any longer, but as there are things on the opposition summarizing that got answered on the new OP and some others on discussion, I'll consider the OP "too light" to cover them and answer here too (Mostly, again)

Hades’ “supposed “shock” is most likely (however there are other interpretations) due to mistaking Shaka’s cosmo as Athena’s which he himself confirms he was sensing Athena’s cosmo not Shaka’s.

It actually is not possible to be this one as when Shaka enters, Hades actually asks who is the one entering. Also as posted here iirc by Xxiaa accompanied by some scans, Athena’s cosmo is bigger than the gold saints' together, so it's likely that nobody attributes her cosmo to other beings.

as well as has accepted scaling on this site that places him above Shaka by very literally infinite power.

The problem with that statement is the only thing accepted here says "stronger than Thanatos and Hypnos" but no-one brought up basis for that, nor is it presented on the profile, so as the verse is getting reformed, I would like to propose that the first change of the verse is putting this "possibly" on the profiles, so far.

Shaka declaring he will kill Hades is meaningless when he has 0 supporting feats, scaling and actual feats would contradict interpreting this declaration as an actual fact.

The scaling part is actually true, which is why the "probably" would be given because of this very feat, but the rest is presented both in op and along the discussion, so I disagree.

no action is taken by either side and the closest thing we have to a feat in the whole scene is Athena catching a trident thrown by Hades.

Shaka was about to use an unknown attack but yes, was also impeded by her. It is one of the biggest reasons for the "probably".

and finally when you read the whole interaction, Hades’ supposed “shock” or “fright” from Shaka is more adequately interpreted as him being dumbfounded someone would disturb him after he told Pandora to tell everyone to not disturb him and/or he’s dumbfounded a Gold Saint would even attempt to fight him alone.

I am strongly against this interpretation but I guess it is a valid one

There's that too↓↓↓

If we're gonna include my reinforcement arguments, one of the nicest is this:

It would fit how the author writes, since if the attacks doesn't work because the enemy is too strong, it is shown and described pretty well (on the very same chapter 94, pages 16, 17 and 18 this is literally happening to Seiya, and there are many other examples of that on the manga), which means that the likely situation if Shaka was to just be overconfident is that he would attack, it would not work, and Athena would come to save him, not thinking first about Shun's body

 

[Catzlaflame]

okay, having read through more of the thread, and having a better grasp of the OP and the oposiiton to some extent, from a completely unbiased prespective @Hasty12345 seems to make more sense to me.

---

@DarkDragonMedeus if you could help out here it would be much appreciated:

Topic: Does Virgo Shaka scale to Hades

SUPPORT (Reasons why Shaka would scale) PLUS POST DIRECTLY BELOW THIS

To reiterate, you're points are:

• Hades was intimidated by the threat against his life (as evidenced by his shocked expression)
• Virgo Shaka was very confident he would win (i.e., he fought using his skills/powers alone

OPPOSITION (Reasons why Shaka would not scale)

The opposition is essentially there’s no feat in this interaction that suggests Shaka scales.

• Hades’ “supposed “shock” is most likely (however there are other interpretations) due to mistaking Shaka’s cosmo as Athena’s which he himself confirms he was sensing Athena’s cosmo not Shaka’s.
• this version of Hades had previously defeated a character on screen who is stronger than Shaka just moments before Shaka showed up, as well as has accepted scaling on this site that places him above Shaka by very literally infinite power.
• Shaka declaring he will kill Hades is meaningless when he has 0 supporting feats, scaling and actual feats would contradict interpreting this declaration as an actual fact.
• no action is taken by either side and the closest thing we have to a feat in the whole scene is Athena catching a trident thrown by Hades.
• and finally when you read the whole interaction, Hades’ supposed “shock” or “fright” from Shaka is more adequately interpreted as him being dumbfounded someone would disturb him after he told Pandora to tell everyone to not disturb him and/or he’s dumbfounded a Gold Saint would even attempt to fight him alone.

(Contentions to OPPOSTION can be found in the post above this one)

 

[Lynieryz]

SUPPORT (Reasons why Shaka would scale)

My bad but can you add these three points to the arguments in favor of the crt?After you add it or not, I don't know what you thinkyou can delete this message.

On the next chapter (95, page 4) Athena says they wouldn't damage Hades' Soul (which is the god in fact), but would the body (that is Shun, who he believed was no more and didn't mind destroying)

as this form of Hades is much MUCH weaker than Hades himself (as it was exorcised by armorless Athena, while Hades on his body demolished Athena until she got her armor)

what Athena achieved with exorcising, Shaka was confident (and Hades clearly got disturbed by him) on doing with his bare skills and powers. It would fit how the author writes, since if the attacks doesn't work because the enemy is too strong, it is shown and described pretty well (on the very same chapter 94, pages 16, 17 and 18 this is literally happening to Seiya, and there are many other examples of that on the manga), which means that the likely situation if Shaka was to just be overconfident is that he would attack, it would not work, and Athena would come to save him, not thinking first about Shun's body.

 

[noninho]

okay, having read through more of the thread, and having a better grasp of the OP and the oposiiton to some extent, from a completely unbiased prespective @Hasty12345 seems to make more sense to me.

---

@DarkDragonMedeus if you could help out here it would be much appreciated:

Topic: Does Virgo Shaka scale to Hades

SUPPORT (Reasons why Shaka would scale)

OPPOSITION (Reasons why Shaka would not scale)

(Contentions to OPPOSTION can be found in the post above this one)

So I position you as disagreement or still neutral for the time being?

 

[Huesito88]

Alright since I had a little bit of time

Here's the entirety of Volume 25 of Saint Seiya in Imgur

The only reason I decided to put the entire thing in Imgur is because it confirms it's Viz translations in the beginning, just skip to "Ikki vs Shun-Hades" (it's in the middle), and "Shaka vs Shun-Hades" (After the "Ikki vs Shun-Hades" fight, near the end)

Here's some of Volume 26 of Saint Seiya in Imgur

"Shaka vs Shun-Hades", the rest of the volume is not relevant here so I didn't put it in

 

[noninho]

Alright since I had a little bit of time

Here's the entirety of Volume 25 of Saint Seiya in Imgur

The only reason I decided to put the entire thing in Imgur is because it confirms it's Viz translations in the beginning, just skip to "Ikki vs Shun-Hades" (it's in the middle), and "Shaka vs Shun-Hades" (After the "Ikki vs Shun-Hades" fight, near the end)

Here's some of Volume 26 of Saint Seiya in Imgur

"Shaka vs Shun-Hades", the rest of the volume is not relevant here so I didn't put it in

Will put the images asap in OP

Very much obliged, mate!

 

[StekFence]

Saint Seiya has a ton of (mis)translations, so I avoid posting/using on the arguments scans other than Viz

half of them come from viz

 

[Huesito88]

half of them come from viz

Stek is correct

 

[noninho]

Lmfao

 

[StekFence]

To name an example, Hades saying he’ll use 1000 times more power is in the raws, but Viz translated it as Hades using his full power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Damn 7 pages, stop stonewalling ya'll

 

[noninho]

Damn 7 pages, stop stonewalling ya'll

Worst part of it:
In the middle of repeating the same arguments, the new one came, so for that strange reason they're not 100% stonewalling lol
Catz, Hasty and I have summarized it, so no-one needs to go so far as reading that much stuff

 

[noninho]

Scans are required when making a CRT, please include those.

@Huesito88 kindly provided* those and now they've been added to OP...just so that you know : )

 

[Danny33wise]

I agree with op on this. I have gone through the entire of this thread and haven't seen a reasonable debunk to why shaka shouldn't scale about shun hades.

Most people arguments here are based on the fact that they think ikki is above shaka so shaka can't be that much stronger than him or shaka an ikki are comparable.

The reasoning behind why people dismiss op claims are definitely not logical to me. Shaka has always been treated as a character with God like complex and the creation of this character is based on someone who is wise (As stated by kurumada).

For shaka to be confident in being able to harm shun hade simply means he has a decent means of doing such. Shaka was never portrayed as a stupid character, so for shun hade to have a shock face and anthena to stop shaka from attacking him twice mean he can actually damage shun hade body.

I agree with op on this.

 

[Hasty12345]

Most people arguments here are based on the fact that they think ikki is above shaka so shaka can't be that much stronger than him or shaka an ikki are comparable.

And Shades is above the Twins who must be above Shaka.

That is accepted scaling.

 

[Catzlaflame]

So I position you as disagreement or still neutral for the time being?

Unfortunately, Disagree. Also, I don’t know any other staff that’d be willing to evaluate this (Particularly not thread mods/admins).

For the future, it’d be way more efficient if the verse supporters actually agreed on a thread before it was posted, you guys should discuss threads in the general discussion before posting them to avoid 7 pages of discussion like what occurred here. Keep in mind, the longer a thread is, the lower the chances of it getting evaluated.

Sorry I couldn’t have done any more to help.

 

[Hasty12345]

Unfortunately, Disagree. Also, I don’t know any other staff that’d be willing to evaluate this (Particularly not thread mods/admins).

For the future, it’d be way more efficient if the verse supporters actually agreed on a thread before it was posted, you guys should discuss threads in the general discussion before posting them to avoid 7 pages of discussion like what occurred here. Keep in mind, the longer a thread is, the lower the chances of it getting evaluated.

Sorry I couldn’t have done any more to help.

thanks for your help

 

[noninho]

Unfortunately, Disagree

Mmkay ;-;

For the future, it’d be way more efficient if the verse supporters actually agreed on a thread before it was posted, you guys should discuss threads in the general discussion before posting them to avoid 7 pages of discussion like what occurred here

For the other verses I'm planning CRTs for, I will do this, for sure

 

[noninho]

And Shades is above the Twins who must be above Shaka.

That is accepted scaling.

Accepted from what? What source material, what CRT?

 

[Hasty12345]

Accepted from what? What source material, what CRT?

I don't know what CRT, but I'm sure you could find it

 

[noninho]

Sorry I couldn’t have done any more to help.

Actually, id like some help on a matter of interpretation:

Instances of minor revisions may include changes to one or two characters, if it is just the addition of simple abilities that do not fall into the categories of acausality (except type 1), concept manipulation, abstract existence, plot manipulation, information manipulation, causality manipulation, nonexistent physiology, law manipulation etc. or otherwise could be considered particularly controversial or noteworthy.

For minor revisions and self-evident revisions, it is sufficient to seek the approval of one staff member with evaluation rights.

For content revisions that affect Tier 2 or higher, the participation of at least one Administrator in the review and approval process is required.

Should I consider that I need one vote (via fitting minor revision) of an Admin (via atm Hades being 2-C and Shaka L2-C)?
If so, I'll be starting grace period now (despite his vote being a while ago, to avoid discussion on this point) for Griffin's vote

 

[Hasty12345]

f so, I'll be starting grace period now (despite his vote being a while ago, to avoid discussion on this point) for Griffin's vote

you've changed the OP like 4 times since his vote

 

[noninho]

you've changed the OP like 4 times since his vote

I had it reformed for the sake of understanding, but as you can get from both his wall and here, he agrees with the condition that it's under a "possibly", and the proposition* has not changed

Edit: I don't think it's right to bother him again, but if you think so, it's up to you, and we see if he changes his vote

 

[Hasty12345]

Unfortunately, Disagree. Also, I don’t know any other staff that’d be willing to evaluate this (Particularly not thread mods/admins).

For the future, it’d be way more efficient if the verse supporters actually agreed on a thread before it was posted, you guys should discuss threads in the general discussion before posting them to avoid 7 pages of discussion like what occurred here. Keep in mind, the longer a thread is, the lower the chances of it getting evaluated.

Sorry I couldn’t have done any more to help.

Question, I plan on making a CRT that will revise the entire scaling chain for this tier of characters in the verse (It will change the scaling OP is proposing), If this passes, is there a rule against me altering his changes within a certain time period?

 

[noninho]

Question, I plan on making a CRT that will revise the entire scaling chain for this tier of characters in the verse (It will change the scaling OP is proposing), If this passes, is there a rule against me altering his changes within a certain time period?

(Sharing my knowledge, I know you asked somebody else's) Not really, if on this said CRT the mods and admins agree with its entirety (remember that the voters can agree with parts and disagree with others, if so they justify)

 

[Catzlaflame]

Should I consider that I need one vote (via fitting minor revision) of an Admin (via atm Hades being 2-C and Shaka L2-C)?
If so, I'll be starting grace period now (despite his vote being a while ago, to avoid discussion on this point) for Griffin's vote

Nah, an AP upgrade involving tier 2 cant really be considered a “minor revision.” That is usually reserved for things like ability additions (barring abilities that aren’t conceptual manip type 1 for example) I believe @ImmortalDread can vouch for me on this given that she’s the one who wrote the current version of the rules. (also the fact that 4 pages have gone by since Griffin has agreed may pose a problem as well)

Question, I plan on making a CRT that will revise the entire scaling chain for this tier of characters in the verse (It will change the scaling OP is proposing), If this passes, is there a rule against me altering his changes within a certain time period?

I can recall many an instance where an admin has told someone not to make a CRT, countering another CRT, shortly after that CRT passed. However, I don’t think it’s an official rule (not 100% sure on this) no matter what though, I can say that, yes, it is generally frowned upon to do that.

 

[Hasty12345]

I can recall many an instance where an admin has told someone not to make a CRT, countering another CRT, shortly after that CRT passed. However, I don’t think it’s an official rule (not 100% sure on this) no matter what though, I can say that, yes, it is generally frowned upon to do that.

I have seen this stated somewhere, I just don't know if it's an official rule or not,

It would be very disheartening if my planned revisions were to be postponed for a significant time over something like this, especially given every active verse supporter's disagreement on in-verse scaling can be overturned by an admin with self-admitted no knowledge on the series.

 

[noninho]

especially given every active verse supporter's disagreement on in-verse scaling can be overturned by an admin with self-admitted no knowledge on the series.

When his vote was considering both sides' points I wouldn't put in that way

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nah, an AP upgrade involving tier 2 cant really be considered a “minor revision.” That is usually reserved for things like ability additions (barring abilities that aren’t conceptual manip type 1 for example) I believe @ImmortalDread can vouch for me on this given that she’s the one who wrote the current version of the rules. (also the fact that 4 pages have gone by since Griffin has agreed may pose a problem as well)

I can confirm this.

 

[Lynieryz]

I can recall many an instance where an admin has told someone not to make a CRT, countering another CRT, shortly after that CRT passed. However, I don’t think it’s an official rule (not 100% sure on this) no matter what though, I can say that, yes, it is generally frowned upon to do that.

I remember seeing somewhere that it takes 3 months to do a CRT against something that was accepted.

Edit: here

• When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously. Rejected content revisions cannot be resubmitted within a short period of time (typically defined as within 3 to 4 months), except in cases where a staff member has a good reason to do so (e.g. important unconsidered information, violation of site standards or flaws in a calculation). This only applies to threads that have received extensive debate or have been rejected due to a clear conflict with the wiki's rules or standards. If a thread passes or is rejected without significant opposition, then opposition should not be restricted from making a point.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[noninho]

Just to point out:
There is no CRT about Classic* Hashun>Hypnos & Thanatos. I will go through the manga and if I don't find anything about it there, than I will add to this CRT's proposal the removal of this statement on the profile

Edit: it makes sense for GA since there we see hashun>God Cloths and afaik God Cloths>Thanatos and Hypnos...but g and classic are not the same timeline so...yeah

 

[Hasty12345]

How about you make a new CRT for that topic instead of adding to an already needlessly long CRT.

You can put an asterisk in front of classic all you like, it's currently accepted that there is only 1 Hades and the way Hades' host works the feat is cross-scalable. Once Shun has the black hair it means Hades has taken complete control, the power of Shun is irrelevant, it's Hades' power being used through Shun's body. Hades is above god cloths so black hair shun is above god cloths, LW Shunades has the feats to back it up and Classic Shunades has no antifeats.

And whilst I cannot stop you, I do plan on addressing that in my planned CRTs I would certainly appreciate you discuss things with us verse supporters in general before trying to make changes as apparently I need to wait 3 months to change anything you do. My goal is to do comprehensive CRTs that deal with all implications of scaling, not indefinitely edit a CRT to make Shaka scaling to Shunades more concrete.

At least hash out your proposals in the general thread so you can see if your arguments hold up before adding more to this CRT.

 

[noninho]

Yeah

 

[AlexZiggy]

Shaka was never portrayed as a stupid character

Very wise Shaka failed to sense evil in Saga and loses to Ikki via him doing the same thing Shaka does, which Shaka facilitated

 

[Hasty12345]

Very wise Shaka failed to sense evil in Saga and loses to Ikki via him doing the same thing Shaka does, which Shaka facilitated

Shaka is also very arrogant, as our friend puts it "Shaka is arrogant af"

 

[noninho]

Intelligence: Incredibly Intelligent. At the age of 6, Shaka was already an enlightened individual who had a great understanding and awareness of the nature of existence. He also held telepathic conversations with The Buddha while meditating. He is in tune with the universe around him and transcended life and death upon reaching the 8th Sense. Later reached Nirvana, attaining Buddhahood.

(This level is not on the standards, but anyway)
Literally happens to the best of us ig

 

[StekFence]

but g and classic are not the same timeline so...yeah

It’s not relevant to the context of this verse. As far as god scaling goes, whatever the timeline is doesn’t matter that much.

 

[noninho]

Shaka is also very arrogant, as our friend puts it "Shaka is arrogant af"

Fortunately this is pointed out to not be a thing after the sanctuary arc