Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[LuffyRuffy46307]

How can Shun see symbolism?

BFR, my dear (Wait, I thought you were talking about Shun falling) , but it is just a representation, Shaka didn't create anything, we didn't see literal Universes being destroyed or created, that was all nothing more than something symbolic created by the two (something already mentioned in the work itself)

What specific part do you think sounds like hyperbole and based on what is that conclusion founded upon?

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Here, it seems to be hyperbole, since it didn't show anything, it's just talk.

 

[Hasty12345]

BFR, my dear (Wait, I thought you were talking about Shun falling) , but it is just a representation, Shaka didn't create anything, we didn't see literal Universes being destroyed or created, that was all nothing more than something symbolic created by the two (something already mentioned in the work itself)

Do not refer to me as your "dear".
Nothing you said disproves the fact Shun made the statement universes were being created and destroyed, if it was Shaka or Shijima you might have an argument.

The work ONLY indicates that PHYSICAL universes were in play.

The individual attacks being symbolic on their own doesn't mean the result of their clash (something that has never happened in the history of the verse) is symbolism, especially when a character could physically see these objects being created and destroyed.

So I'm not convinced by your false equivalences and parroting of D-tier arguments,

Here, it seems to be hyperbole, since it didn't show anything, it's just talk.

A statement outlining the qualities or attributes of an attack as well as describing what effects the attack is passively having on the environment is now hyperbole?

Well RIP to 99% of all scaling everywhere.

The attack is an infinitely dense combination of Ikki's soul and cosmo, you don't have grounds to claim hyperbole, nothing about the language is poetic, Ikki/Leo Saints even tells us the attack is affecting the dimensions around them, before telling us the nature of the attack was higher dimensional.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Do not refer to me as your "dear".
Nothing you said disproves the fact Shun made the statement universes were being created and destroyed, if it was Shaka or Shijima you might have an argument.

The work ONLY indicates that PHYSICAL universes were in play.

The individual attacks being symbolic on their own doesn't mean the result of their clash (something that has never happened in the history of the verse) is symbolism, especially when a character could physically see these objects being created and destroyed.

So I'm not convinced by your false equivalences and parroting of D-tier arguments,

What do you mean you don't refute it? It's literally said that all that was just something symbolic created by Shaka and Shijima, it's mentioned twice, that something symbolic that represents the destruction of the Universe and creation, seeing something symbolic doesn't prove that it's real, but rather that they can see a kind of illusion created by them to represent the creation and destruction of the Universe

The work doesn't indicate that they can create something like that, Shaka doesn't have the potential to climb with that, that's something symbolic, I don't see why he's low 2-C based on that, but I'll make a crt to change that somehow.

A statement outlining the qualities or attributes of an attack as well as describing what effects the attack is passively having on the environment is now hyperbole?

Well RIP to 99% of all scaling everywhere.

The attack is an infinitely dense combination of Ikki's soul and cosmo, you don't have grounds to claim hyperbole, nothing about the language is poetic, Ikki/Leo Saints even tells us the attack is affecting the dimensions around them, before telling us the nature of the attack was higher dimensional.

If there's no evidence of that, then it's hyperbole

 

[Hasty12345]

What do you mean you don't refute it? It's literally said that all that was just something symbolic created by Shaka and Shijima, it's mentioned twice, that something symbolic that represents the destruction of the Universe and creation, seeing something symbolic doesn't prove that it's real, but rather that they can see a kind of illusion created by them to represent the creation and destruction of the Universe

The work doesn't indicate that they can create something like that, Shaka doesn't have the potential to climb with that, that's something symbolic, I don't see why he's low 2-C based on that, but I'll make a crt to change that somehow.

If Superman represents and is the symbol of hope, is the destruction he does also symbolism?
I'm not disputing the attacks themselves represent concepts, however, that doesn't mean the destruction caused by the clash was also symbolic.

There's 0 evidence it was an illusion.

The character who described what he saw did not indicate it was an illusion, this character has identified illusions in the past and did not mention this was an illusion.

Shaka is low 2-C for reasons primarily relating to the 7th sense, I plan on changing it myself in my next CRT.

However, now you've convinced me he is 2-B, so now I have to reevaluate the tier 4 scaling I was going to give him, maybe he needs a new key for post-wailing wall, as he is clearly far far stronger now than he was in Classic.

If there's no evidence of that, then it's hyperbole

The evidence is the statement itself and the characters describing what is happening.

The panel choosing to focus on Ikki instead of the environment isn't an anti-feat. Extrapolating your logic means we cannot scale novels as there's no proof that anything being described to us is happening.

You're making the claim it is hyperbole, you have to prove it is hyperbole, I know you can't because such evidence doesn't exist.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What do you mean you don't refute it? It's literally said that all that was just something symbolic created by Shaka and Shijima, it's mentioned twice, that something symbolic that represents the destruction of the Universe and creation, seeing something symbolic doesn't prove that it's real, but rather that they can see a kind of illusion created by them to represent the creation and destruction of the Universe

The work doesn't indicate that they can create something like that, Shaka doesn't have the potential to climb with that, that's something symbolic, I don't see why he's low 2-C based on that, but I'll make a crt to change that somehow.


If there's no evidence of that, then it's hyperbole

You could argue symbolism, but that symbolism was directly stated to be "manifesting" itself into reality just before the clash of light and dark.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If Superman represents and is the symbol of hope, is the destruction he does also symbolism?
I'm not disputing the attacks themselves represent concepts, however, that doesn't mean the destruction caused by the clash was also symbolic.

There's 0 evidence it was an illusion.

The character who described what he saw did not indicate it was an illusion, this character has identified illusions in the past and did not mention this was an illusion.

Shaka is low 2-C for reasons primarily relating to the 7th sense, I plan on changing it myself in my next CRT.

However, now you've convinced me he is 2-B, so now I have to reevaluate the tier 4 scaling I was going to give him, maybe he needs a new key for post-wailing wall, as he is clearly far far stronger now than he was in Classic.

I don't think Superman is a good example, what you mentioned has nothing to do with it, if he can destroy the Universe or something greater with his power, he is what he did, but if he said something symbolic that didn't happen and described it as several times being symbolic and that it didn't happen, then he didn't do anything, just a representation to show the beginning and the end of the Universe.

There's plenty of evidence that it's an illusion created by them, Shaka has done it in the past, not like now, but he did it with Ikki, he has the skills to do it

Of course, you can try to make Shaka 2-B through a representation of the creation and destruction of the Universe (although, I doubt that would pass, since not even Hades at his maximum potential can do that), but be aware that not even joining all 12 golden ones is capable of creating enough energy to destroy Universes or create one.

You were using the argument just now that seeing means creating, and once again, they didn't create anything, everything was just a representation created by both of them and that shouldn't be in the AP section

The evidence is the statement itself and the characters describing what is happening.

The panel choosing to focus on Ikki instead of the environment isn't an anti-feat. Extrapolating your logic means we cannot scale novels as there's no proof that anything being described to us is happening.

You're making the claim it is hyperbole, you have to prove it is hyperbole, I know you can't because such evidence doesn't exist.

I saw absolutely nothing to be concrete, just empty statements without proof

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You could argue symbolism, but that symbolism was directly stated to be "manifesting" itself into reality just before the clash of light and dark.

I honestly don't even know how this happened, but it's so wrong.

 

[Hasty12345]

(although, I doubt that would pass, since not even Hades at his maximum potential can do that)

Based on what evidence can Hades not do it?

, but be aware that not even joining all 12 golden ones is capable of creating enough energy to destroy Universes or create one.

"be aware"????

3 Gold Saints can.

I saw absolutely nothing to be concrete, just empty statements without proof

I suppose if you can't understand what's being said then every statement appears empty.

Thankfully, you're interpretation (or lack there of) isn't an argument I haven to worry about.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Based on what evidence can Hades not do it?

On the basis that he has no feat for such a scale

"be aware"????

3 Gold Saints can.

Yes, they can create a small Big Bang at a smaller rate the creation of the Universe

I suppose if you can't understand what's being said then every statement appears empty.

Thankfully, you're interpretation (or lack there of) isn't an argument I haven to worry about.

No, i'm just saying there's a lack of evidence for that claim.

 

[Hasty12345]

On the basis that he has no feat for such a scale

weaker characters do and Athena is stated verbatim weaker than said feat whom Hades scales above.

Nothing says Hades "cannot" or "isn't" at that level, so nothing precludes Hades from scaling above it when there's a direct scaling chain.

Yes, they can create a small Big Bang at a smaller rate the creation of the Universe

This right here shows how disingenuous you are towards this verse.

You know for an absolute fact that's not what is stated and the Athena Exclamation is compared directly to the actual big bang and is stated to have destructive capability on that level.

No, i'm just saying there's a lack of evidence for that claim.

No, you are saying you refusing the evidence for that claim. There's a difference.

Luffy, the difference between you and I is that you're clearly biased because you would disagree with 2-B Hades on the basis he one shots Goku.


I am not blinded by such notions, and even though it would mean Goku soloed Saint Seiya, I would have upgraded him to low 1-C (which is where he should be) had the other DB fans had told me not to.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out your motivations when you advertise them on every Saint Seiya and Dragon Ball CRT, even to the point of using Saint Seiya scans to prove your DB CRTs in an attempt to "catch Saint Seiya out" for the size of the UW.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

weaker characters do and Athena is stated verbatim weaker than said feat whom Hades scales above.

Nothing says Hades "cannot" or "isn't" at that level, so nothing precludes Hades from scaling above it when there's a direct scaling chain.


This right here shows how disingenuous you are towards this verse.

You know for an absolute fact that's not what is stated and the Athena Exclamation is compared directly to the actual big bang and is stated to have destructive capability on that level.


No, you are saying you refusing the evidence for that claim. There's a difference.

Luffy, the difference between you and I is that you're clearly biased because you would disagree with 2-B Hades on the basis he one shots Goku.


I am not blinded by such notions, and even though it would mean Goku soloed Saint Seiya, I would have upgraded him to low 1-C (which is where he should be) had the other DB fans had told me not to.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out your motivations when you advertise them on every Saint Seiya and Dragon Ball CRT, even to the point of using Saint Seiya scans to prove your DB CRTs in an attempt to "catch Saint Seiya out" for the size of the UW.

It is mentioned that EA his power is less, but anyway, let's touch on the subject of Shaka, no need to be aggressive, we're having a fan debate and there's no competition

Calling people fake is ugly, just for disagreeing with their opinion, you know I'm a fan of both franchises and i disagree with a lot of things, we're not talking about Dragon Ball, so just focus on what's being said

Athena was never shown to have 2-A potential, but she was affecting the Universe with her trip to the past, i don't see how Hades will have a 2-A feat, i don't care about complex things related to tier 1, i always avoid debating things like that

But you can try something like this, since the verse has a basis for it, i believe that the only one to scale with this is Chronos

 

[Hasty12345]

It is mentioned that EA his power is less, but anyway,

scan

no need to be aggressive, we're having a fan debate and there's no competition

I'm not aggressive, and there is no competition... except when your motives are as clear as the night sky.

Calling people fake is ugly, just for disagreeing with their opinion

I'm going to assume this is an artifact of google Translate. I never called you fake or implied you were a fake fan of either series. I just stated you're clearly biased when you make claims that are very obviously not true and contradicted by the very evidence you use to support your claims.

Athena was never shown to have 2-A potential, but she was affecting the Universe with her trip to the past, i don't see how Hades will have a 2-A feat, i don't care about complex things related to tier 1, i always avoid debating things like that

Gohan was never shown to have 4-B potential, but then Cell came along and made a hyperbolic statement and now Gohan scaling means he has 4-B potential.

I don't think you're using the word "potential" right here and you probably mean "power", easy to see how translation software can confuse the two.

However, Gods in the franchise are often stated and narratively implied to be infinitely above the likes of humans, unless it's a miracle (gods scale above 99% of those as well) human power cannot reach the domain of gods.

So Shaka and Shijima having a 2-B feat and Shijima being scared at the vague flex of Athena's cosmo is grounds for her and Hades to scale.

As for the trip to the past disturbing the universe, the Pope says it's anything any Olympian could do yet only Chronos can time travel. So whilst this particular instance is due to time travel, any Olympian god can disrupt the order of the universe and destroy it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

About EA's quote, you can find it in your official language, since the English manga of Saint Seiya is not available here, but using a translator we are told that the creation of the Universe is on a smaller scale

When you have several evidences and statements to prove such a thing, of course, citations are only useful if you have a lot of evidence, which didn't happen during this (this is contracted by the work itself, which proves to be something symbolic/representation )

I don't think Google translate is wrong, but I'll look here to see if it called me that, but anyway forget about it, i don't want to create any unnecessary fights between us.

 

[Hasty12345]

About EA's quote, you can find it in your official language, since the English manga of Saint Seiya is not available here, but using a translator we are told that the creation of the Universe is on a smaller scale

you are confusing 2 statements making different claims.

The attack mimics the big bang on a smaller scale, yes. However, it also has power that rivals the Big Bang that created the universe.

They are 2 different statements talking about 2 different attributes of the technique, one (the one you are referring to) talks about its form/physical property the other, the other (the one I'm referring to) talks about its power.

It can be a smaller-scale Big Bang that has the full force of the actual Big Bang, they're not mutually (size and power) exclusive properties.

When you have several evidences and statements to prove such a thing, of course, citations are only useful if you have a lot of evidence, which didn't happen during this (this is contracted by the work itself, which proves to be something symbolic/representation )

Again, I don't accept this gibberish argument and I have explained why it falls flat on its face.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It's okay, you don't have to accept my argument.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's okay, you don't have to accept my argument.

It's not that I'm not accepting your argument, it's that you don't have an argument.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It's not that I'm not accepting your argument, it's that you don't have an argument.

Oh yeah, you didn't have it, that's why you were nervous with me.

 

[Hasty12345]

Oh yeah, you didn't have it, that's why you were nervous with me.

nervous, is that a google translation error?

 

[AlexZiggy]

... the Athena Exclamation is Big Bang level. What even

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

nervous, is that a google translation error?

;-;

 

[Hasty12345]

;-;

Luffy, I am not nervous when arguing with any person on this site.

 

[AlexZiggy]

And yes GR Ikki is tier 1.

 

[Hasty12345]

And yes GR Ikki is tier 1.

the statement implies 1-A in all honesty.

 

[AlexZiggy]

the statement implies 1-A in all honesty.

At least High 1-B for affecting the infinite time axis of the "universe"

 

[Hasty12345]

At least High 1-B for affecting the infinite time axis of the "universe"

That's coming eventually but for now, I want to fix the Gold Saints.

 

[StekFence]

Y know, with GR, one could make a pretty good crt about low 1-c gods

 

[Hasty12345]

Y know, with GR, one could make a pretty good crt about low 1-c gods

I think one could make a pretty good argument for high 1-B

 

[StekFence]

Huh, interesting

 

[Lynieryz]

I just want to say that Luffy's bias isn't something exclusive to him; it's something that most Brazilian Dragon Ball fans share due to a rivalry from decades ago. Basically, when Dragon Ball Z was gaining fame in Brazil, it was heavily promoted by all Brazilian media as the strongest work ever. However, Saint Seiya fans began to point out that everything Dragon Ball had in terms of feats, Saint Seiya also possessed, and even more powerful feats compared to Dragon Ball Z. In response, Dragon Ball Z fans argued that any statement in Saint Seiya is hyperbole and any visual feat is a metaphor or representation. Due to Dragon Ball's larger popularity, magazines and television stations started claiming that everything about Saint Seiya was hyperbole or metaphor.

And that's↑ how Saint Seiya is popularly known in relation to its power level here in Brazil.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I just want to say that Luffy's bias isn't something exclusive to him; it's something that most Brazilian Dragon Ball fans share due to a rivalry from decades ago. Basically, when Dragon Ball Z was gaining fame in Brazil, it was heavily promoted by all Brazilian media as the strongest work ever. However, Saint Seiya fans began to point out that everything Dragon Ball had in terms of feats, Saint Seiya also possessed, and even more powerful feats compared to Dragon Ball Z. In response, Dragon Ball Z fans argued that any statement in Saint Seiya is hyperbole and any visual feat is a metaphor or representation. Due to Dragon Ball's larger popularity, magazines and television stations started claiming that everything about Saint Seiya was hyperbole or metaphor.

And that's↑ how Saint Seiya is popularly known in relation to its power level here in Brazil.

It is explained in the work that it is a representation/ symbolic, but coming from you, i don't doubt this prejudice against me at all ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

 

[Huesito88]

"Saint Seiya is hyperbole and any visual feat is a metaphor or representation"

It's true though, almost all of it is symbolic, the absolute strongest characters (those gods) in Saint Seiya are barely Planet level through TK offensively with Baseline FTL speed and are glass canons.

 

[AlexZiggy]

That moment when Mu's visual feat in G is beyond anything DB has except Zeno

 

[Lynieryz]

but coming from you, i don't doubt this prejudice against me at all ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

??? I think you're confusing me with someone else? I basically never interacted with you and I don't remember being offensive to you, and again my comment is not about you in specific, but rather that the way you interact with Saint Seiya is something characteristic of Brazilian Dragon Ball fans, and you know that this is not a lie.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

??? I think you're confusing me with someone else? I basically never interacted with you and I don't remember being offensive to you, and again my comment is not about you in specific, but rather that the way you interact with Saint Seiya is something characteristic of Brazilian Dragon Ball fans, and you know that this is not a lie.

I'm not confused, i remember people who do evil, i'm just pointing out an error to them, which should be fixed



Now pointing out errors in the work you like causes you to be prejudiced because you are Brazilian, it's funny that Saint Seiya fans themselves can't bear to debate without involving Dragon Ball, i don't care about these franchise fights, i'm just showing you the right way.

 

[Lynieryz]

I'm not confused, i remember people who do evil, i'm just pointing out an error to them, which should be fixed



Now pointing out errors in the work you like causes you to be prejudiced because you are Brazilian, it's funny that Saint Seiya fans themselves can't bear to debate without involving Dragon Ball, i don't care about these franchise fights, i'm just showing you the right way.

Eu não entendi algumas partes do q vc disse.[I didn't understand some parts of what you said]

Você pode postar oq você quis dizer em Português junto com uma tradução para o Inglês já que a wiki não permite falar em outra língua?
[Can you post what you meant in Portuguese along with a translation into English since the wiki does not allow speaking in another language?]

E do q eu entendi sobre oq vc disse, eu nunca entrei no assunto sobre oq vc está dizendo ser correto ou não, mas sim q o jeito e as exatas palavras q vc utiliza com Saint Seiya são literalmente as q os fãs de Dragon Ball brasileiros usam em relação a todo o contexto q eu dei.
[And from what I understand about what you said, I never went into whether what you're saying is correct or not, but rather that the way and exact words you usually use with Saint Seiya are literally what Brazilian Dragon Ball fans use in relation to all the context I gave.]

and again my comment is not about you in specific, but rather that the way you interact with Saint Seiya is something characteristic of Brazilian Dragon Ball fans, and you know that this is not a lie.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Eu não entendi algumas partes do q vc disse.[I didn't understand some parts of what you said]

Você pode postar oq você quis dizer em Português junto com uma tradução para o Inglês já que a wiki não permite falar em outra língua?
[Can you post what you meant in Portuguese along with a translation into English since the wiki does not allow speaking in another language?]

E do q eu entendi sobre oq vc disse, eu nunca entrei no assunto sobre oq vc está dizendo ser correto ou não, mas sim q o jeito e as exatas palavras q vc utiliza com Saint Seiya são literalmente as q os fãs de Dragon Ball brasileiros usam em relação a todo o contexto q eu dei.
[And from what I understand about what you said, I never went into whether what you're saying is correct or not, but rather that the way and exact words you usually use with Saint Seiya are literally what Brazilian Dragon Ball fans use in relation to all the context I gave.]

Speaking in Portuguese can run the risk of being banned, i use google translator, some words may be wrong, but it is exactly about this feat that is not literal here

 

[Lynieryz]

Speaking in Portuguese can run the risk of being banned, i use google translator, some words may be wrong, but it is exactly about this feat that is not literal here

But I never talked about the feat itself??? And nothing I said was about that.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

But I never talked about the feat itself??? And nothing I said was about that.

But you should pay attention to what people say, before i come to accuse and put dragon ball in the middle, you wouldn't want to see a stranger speaking badly about Brazil or your country (i thought it was a bit unnecessary to mention nationality and judge someone based on that )

 

[Lynieryz]

But you should pay attention to what people say, before i come to accuse and put dragon ball in the middle, you wouldn't want to see a stranger speaking badly about Brazil or your country (i thought it was a bit unnecessary to mention nationality and judge someone based on that )

Because this is a fact and it is literally something that happened, it has been decades and decades since cdz and dbz have had this rivalry in Brazil and it continues to this day.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Because this is a fact and it is literally something that happened, it has been decades and decades since cdz and dbz have had this rivalry in Brazil and it continues to this day.

If i could leave Brazil, the first place i would go was to the United States to earn a dollar, Saint Seiya is so old and Dragon Ball that i wasn't even born, i don't know the ancient times, here in Brazil there aren't many Saint Seiya fans, you can count them on your fingers (i think this must be because people at that time must have been around 60 years old), i just turned 25 a few months ago.