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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)
- Thread starter TheUnshakableOne
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@Lancelot_de_Cancer Along with regeneration, another detail that came to my mind again with Time Odyseyy showing how Hades’ destiny was changed is about the gods being “acausal”, which seems to become a sillier and sillier notion as the story progresses.
Although even besides Time Odyssey, this was honestly kinda implied (that they don’t transcend time) when the latest chapters of ND clearly showed how Sasha’s fate and history was completely altered by the changes caused by Saori traveling to the past where she becomes bedridden and we see how the history of everyone in the universe is changing (Alone and by extension Hades and his actions are affected too).
Although even besides Time Odyssey, this was honestly kinda implied (that they don’t transcend time) when the latest chapters of ND clearly showed how Sasha’s fate and history was completely altered by the changes caused by Saori traveling to the past where she becomes bedridden and we see how the history of everyone in the universe is changing (Alone and by extension Hades and his actions are affected too).
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Type 1 and 2 Acausality never made sense in this franchise to be honest, although I don't know if they could ever get any other type of Acasuality or this ability doesn't make any sense for the characters in this franchise.
Also TLC has a timeline completely altered by Avenir's time travel, which changed the past and gave rise to the story as we saw it in TLC, since in the original timeline, Hades won the battle and most of the Saints and Athena were killed. So basically we always had indications that the gods were not Sol Badguy, who only resists the fact that he was killed in the past, and changes in time affect them.
As I mentioned it is made clear that Athena only destroys Hades' body in this story, therefore it clearly says that in this battle he lost his beloved mythological body, his evil stars and his kingdom that he created with great care, basically he lost everything, and he only exists as a soul, as any mortal exists as a soul after his body has been destroyed.
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I don't see where its stated that Hades fate was manipulated.
and Super Regeneration was always a thing in the classic. Hades, and Poseidon kept coming back to challenge Athena. Hades was stated to keep coming back every 200 to 250 years.
and Super Regeneration was always a thing in the classic. Hades, and Poseidon kept coming back to challenge Athena. Hades was stated to keep coming back every 200 to 250 years.
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Literally his destined body changed and the future or destiny where he defeated Athena thanks to Ikki's body changed.
This has nothing to do with immortality or regeneration, especially when Athena only seals her enemies, because she is a kind-hearted goddess, and every time these gods return they need the body of the human destined to carry their soul to return. There is nothing that talks about regeneration and in any scene we can see these beings regenerating their body completely after being destroyed.
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It’s stated that the real body that Hades has protected is the same body born from Kronos and Rhea since the Age of Myths, so it’s not referring to him regenerating his body, Athena never even entered the Underworld to fight that body until the 1990 Holy War.
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Only Uranu's body was destroyed or damaged when his throat was cut and currently the ancient gods are looking for a way to recover their bodies with the help of Pontos.
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G has shown that even if a god loses everything there is still that "other form" they have sometimes called "Astral form" sometimes called "Ethereal Form"
This is consistent wtih the Giga Novel where Typhon was able to sustain himself as just his "Divine Will."
This is consistent wtih the Giga Novel where Typhon was able to sustain himself as just his "Divine Will."
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The astral form is only a reference to the soul, which is an ethereal body.
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Proof?
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Literally as they describe her soul, when the goddess loses her body when it is burned by the flames.
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I don't remember that is all. you got the scan available?
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Chapter 24 of Requiem, when the flames burned Athena's body, she takes an ethereal form, a soul without a body.
I never attacked any soul, this is never said in the story.
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The profiles use an old translation that confuses the word spirit/mind with the word soul, for example Kreios is described as destroying the soul, when it really says that his weapon damages the spirit/mind, and even in that scene we can see how Shura's mind is altered and begins to see painful memories of his past.
Kreios: 肉体と精神と同時に小宇宙までをも
The word is 精神 (spirit/mind).
It is the same word that Thanatos uses when he tries to torture the mind of Seiya and attacks his sister.
Even the official English translation translates that word as mind.
I also clarify that it is one thing to damage a soul and another to destroy it completely.
For example Ikki's attack destroys or damages Nachi's soul, this does not mean that he can now regenerate a soul and has super immortality.
Also Hades clearly says that he eliminated Shun's soul, but later we can see how Shun's soul came back, this doesn't mean that now Shun has super immortality either.
I guess they must think Nachi is a super god, rivaling the true gods like Shaka and Jabu.... true, that's why he survives even when his soul was killed.
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Leaving behind a fact that should have been clear by now and that is becoming clearer with each new series that is published.
Here are images of the meteor shower that Nemesis will summon over the Earth, even Hades describes that everything will be reduced to nothing, which could indicate that it will completely destroy the world/planet.
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It seems that what we see in that scene is not the moon and is really the star (celestial body) Adrastea (one of the moons of Jupiter) that is approaching the Earth by the guidance of the goddess and within ten hours this celestial body will enter the gravitational field of the Earth and begin to break into countless meteorites that will crash into the planet.
Here are images of the meteor shower that Nemesis will summon over the Earth, even Hades describes that everything will be reduced to nothing, which could indicate that it will completely destroy the world/planet.
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It seems that what we see in that scene is not the moon and is really the star (celestial body) Adrastea (one of the moons of Jupiter) that is approaching the Earth by the guidance of the goddess and within ten hours this celestial body will enter the gravitational field of the Earth and begin to break into countless meteorites that will crash into the planet.
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@Lancelot_de_Cancer It's interesting that any fan translator could somehow mistake that word for "soul", when in the context of this series, we literally see 精神 referenced in a description for literally the Genromaoken itself, and it clearly just means the mind or psyche.
This just goes to show how Episode G seriously needed a real official English translation instead of unreliable fan translations for this language and how many misconceptions its' caused.
This just goes to show how Episode G seriously needed a real official English translation instead of unreliable fan translations for this language and how many misconceptions its' caused.
Hasty12345
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It is never stated, implied or otherwise indicated Athena EVER touched or interacted with or otherwise manipulated Hades’ soul. Every spin off/interpretation of Hades’ defeat throughout the entirety of the franchises publication history has only ever mentioned the destruction/disappearance of his body.
Hades’ soul being destroyed is the most head canon garbage fabrication of an interpretation of the manga I’ve ever seen.
Hades’ soul being destroyed is the most head canon garbage fabrication of an interpretation of the manga I’ve ever seen.
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This is just a headcanon and it is never mentioned in any way that he can damage souls, in fact it is not indicated that any of the Titans possess this ability, even no character mentions that his soul has been damaged in any way by his attacks. That's not how abilities work, especially when in this series it was never a common ability.
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It's actually very common
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I am not well versed in calculations, but searching google, Adrastea is a very small moon (it has a diameter of 16.4 km), such a small celestial body can destroy the world if it impacts as it appears in the images or even its countless fragments that would be much smaller can cause that level of destruction. Or I have to assume that Nemesis will somehow enhance this impact.
An interesting detail, on twitter a user pointed out to Tsunakan Suda his mistake in the image where Shanghai appears with buildings that should not exist in 1990.
The author context with this image where the goddess says that "I accidentally traveled through space-time. .ops!".
An interesting detail, on twitter a user pointed out to Tsunakan Suda his mistake in the image where Shanghai appears with buildings that should not exist in 1990.
The author context with this image where the goddess says that "I accidentally traveled through space-time. .ops!".
No, it is not, even in the franchise in general this is not how it works.
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Hasty12345
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Just like how Hades or anyone else mentioned Athena damaged or destroyed his soul.
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She used a sacred treasure, a weapon to kill gods, and Hades has not reappeared in the canon, we don't even see his soul in any scene. The interpretation of these authors is irrevalent to the work of Kurumada, who most of the time has a different interpretation of this universe.
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Shiryu legit fought ghost as a Bronze Saint. He then said something it was because of Cosmo
Edit: Cosmo is straight up stated to be derived from the mind and spirit and straight up stated it requires focusing the spirit and mind.*
Edit: Cosmo is straight up stated to be derived from the mind and spirit and straight up stated it requires focusing the spirit and mind.*
Hasty12345
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Nice head canon. Never stated anywhere she can destroy his soul. Your double standards are showing again.
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There is nothing headcanon about this, when it is clearly explained in the story. Better stop crying, just because your headcanon is always confirmed as a mistake.
He fought against a group of Skeletons and defeated them, even I'm not sure if they were manipulated by real ghosts and probably it was just an illusion of Mu to scare off or put the invaders to a halt. The only one that damaged a ghost like Bronze Saints were Jabu and Shoko, but this only applies to the main universe and it's not something they do with every attack, that's why the souls of their opponents still exist. This only became a common ability for the Saints until Next Dimension, where they were all destroying the ghost snakes that protected the Temple of Odysseus, but even this detail that they were ghost snakes was only revealed until Volume 12, where they say that they had lost their bodies while waiting for Asclepius to return.
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Hasty12345
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I swear you just make stuff up.
Hasty12345
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You’re not even trying to hide it at this point.
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Nice strawman. My argument is that your scans didn't only mean it meant minds, and considering Shura took a Genromaoken earlier in G, he'd know what mental attacks are.
Hasty12345
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Notice as well when his logic is applied to his own arguments they literally fall apart…
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The word used is spirit/mind (even examples of the context where that word is used were placed), and we clearly see how it is affecting his mind in that scene, where he begins to have visions of his past, and Shura did not even remember having received the Genrōmaōken, the purpose of using that technique was to alter the memory of Shura, who had discovered the truth.
Saga can (thanks to the Galaxian Explosion), but the others never showed this power (unless they use a special technique with the power to damage or affect incorporeal beings), not to mention that in that scene he only makes the spirits disperse (so he didn't eliminate them in any way), but they reform into a giant and he has to use the Another Dimension to defeat them.
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The doubt is understandable since it's never directly mentioned, but I also think the original story conveys the idea that Hades soul was indeed destroyed by Athena.
In the scene where Athena impales him and he begins his last moment seething, he mentions specifically how the Hades existence itself (him) would be destroyed/perish.
In the scene where Athena impales him and he begins his last moment seething, he mentions specifically how the Hades existence itself (him) would be destroyed/perish.
And why I would say this alludes to the fact his soul was destroyed is because we can contrast it with Poseidon, someone who himself exists only as a soul usually (completely lost his Mythological body already) and at end of the Poseidon Chapter was seen as a helpless soul sealed in the urn, and despite all that, it was still never considered that the Poseidon existence itself had perished or been destroyed as far as I remember, so it wouldn't make sense for Hades entire soul to be intact based on this description.
Hasty12345
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Okada, the Poseidon mangaka and SSA all interpreted the scene as Hades’ body only being destroyed. I’d imagine all 3 sources are fluent in their native language. I don’t think it’s a coincidence no SS authors interpret Hades’ soul as having been destroyed by Athena.The doubt is understandable since it's never directly mentioned, but I also think the original story conveys the idea that Hades soul was indeed destroyed by Athena.
In the scene where Athena impales him and he begins his last moment seething, he mentions specifically how the Hades existence itself (him) would be destroyed/perish.
And why I would say this alludes to the fact his soul was destroyed is because we can contrast it with Poseidon, someone who himself exists only as a soul usually (completely lost his Mythological body already) and at end of the Poseidon Chapter was seen as a helpless soul sealed in the urn, and despite all that, it was still never considered that the Poseidon existence itself had perished or been destroyed as far as I remember, so it wouldn't make sense for Hades entire soul to be intact based on this description.
