Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[AlexZiggy]

Another great find. Although I do prefer GR panels because they prove Okada didn't suddenly retcon what the constellations are for no real reason.
We know the entire night sky is black as of the latest GR chapter, implying Pontos erased alot more than just the constellations. In fact it's possible it affected the entire universe, but he also said he 'hid' the stars which I'm not too sure what that's supposed to mean, we'll have to wait and see. In any case he already scales above the revived Titans except Cronus, so Low 2-C Pontos seems like a safe bet.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don't remember the latest chapter giving any more shots of the night sky, although the scan in 31 shows that the Phoenix Constellation is back.

And yeah, It's definitely clear that in G/GA that the stars have never been anything but beforehand, but tbh, one thing that could actually favor @Lancelot_de_Cancer 's explanation is exactly that (the night sky thing).

In 31, we see that in the page of Ikki's return, the Phoenix Constellation is actually already visible in Earth's sky in an immediate timeframe correlated to Ikki's revival . Basically it would be strange for this to be possible if they reappeared in their supposed positions in place light years away, especially in SS where the authors acknowledge the speed of light so often.

But at any rate I'm not really sure what to make of it since it is unarguable that before now the stars were stars, but the visuals up to now in Requiem seem to continue casting confusion on this, and I'm inclined to think @Lancelot_de_Cancer 's explanation could be more likely at the moment.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Although then again the entire night sky seems to be devoid of stars (and this luminous meteors or whatever stuff could only apply to the constellations at most probably), so it could just be an inconsistency then perhaps? Now I'm even more confused.

 

[Hasty12345]

Just noticed there appears to be an art mistake on the panel you just posted.

the sky has a square edge to it as it fades into space. I can’t unsee it.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Oh I think that might just be because it's the edge of the page/panel, I cropped it since the rest of the page wasn't relevant.

 

[Hasty12345]

It’s still there. If you look at the constellation, the lowest star is in a box of smoke, whilst the rest are in pitch black.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Ohhh, yeah I see it now.

 

[AlexZiggy]

There's about a 3 year timeskip since Seiya's sacrifice and Athena's rebirth until the present day GR. The Pheonix Constellation could have come back right after Pontos destroyed the sky, and the light is only now reaching Earth.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I was considering that too but according to Google it's apparently like 200 light years away or something. But at any rate, after contemplating it I think it's probably most fair to just call it the typical fictional inconsistency regarding stars (like in OPM and DBZ where we can see destroyed stars disappear immediately).

 

[AlexZiggy]

My thoughts aswell

 

[AlexZiggy]

Was Shura amped in his fight against Kreios?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

How much involvment did Kuru have with the Hades Arc Anime?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

News and spoilers about the new spin-off manga protagonized by Poseidon and the Sea Shogun.

First image and cover of the first chapter.

Spoiler of the chapter and translation in portuguese:

Spoiler

スニオン岬で眠るポセイドンの元に蝶の姿でハーデスが訪れるハーデスによると間も無く地上は未曾有の危機に見舞われ破滅するが聖闘士は冥界の崩壊に巻き込まれてまだ地上に戻っていないため聖闘士に代わって地上を守って欲しいという義憤と神罰を司る復讐の女神ネメシスにより地球各地に隕石が落下、かつてのネメシスの聖域には大量のスケルトン（竜牙兵（スパルトイ））が現れ、シャイナ、貴鬼、異変を察知して駆け付けたソレントが応戦するが3人はネメシス配下のカドモスに捕まり連行されるネメシスはハーデス、タナトス、ヒュプノスの三柱の神を人間が殺すという罪を犯したため、地上を滅ぼす神罰を執行3人はポセイドンの力で脱出する復活したポセイドンに加え、ハーデスが一時的に蘇生したソレント以外の海将軍が集結、ネメシス阻止に動き出す・蘇生した海将軍は鱗衣が黒い

---

Hades, sob o formato de uma mariposa, visita o Cabo Sunion onde Poseidon está adormecido. Segundo o Imperador do Inferno, a Terra será assolada em breve por um perigo sem precedentes e acabará destruída. Ele quer proteger o planeta no lugar dos Cavaleiros, que estão envolvidos na destruição do Inferno e que em decorrência disso ainda não retornaram para combater essa nova ameaça.

Nêmesis, a deusa da vingança que controla a justa indignação e a retribuição divina, está causando a queda de meteoritos em muitos lugares da Terra. Um grande número de esqueletos aparecem no lugar onde se situava o Santuário de Nêmesis.

Shaina, Kiki e Sorento, que perceberam o desastre, revidam, mas são derrotados e capturados por Cadmo, um dos subordinados de Nêmesis. A deusa deseja destruir a Terra como punição divina pelo pecado que os humanos cometeram ao matar os três principais deuses do Mundo dos Mortos - Hades, Thanatos e Hypnos. Os três derrotados por Cadmo são libertados graças ao poder de Poseidon, que os resgata.

Juntamente com um Poseidon desperto, os outros Generais Marinas foram revividos temporariamente e se reúnem para impedir os planos de Nêmesis.
"Hades, bajo la forma de una mariposa, visita el cabo Sunion donde duerme Poseidón.

---

Según Hades, la tierra pronto será acechada por un peligro sin precedentes y será destruida.
Quiere proteger la tierra en reemplazo de los Santos que están envueltos en la destrucción del Inframundo y por eso todavía no regresan a la tierra.
Némesis, la diosa de la venganza que controla la indignación justa y el castigo divino, está causando que en muchos lugares de la tierra estén cayendo meteoritos. Una enorme cantidad de Skeletons (Spartoi / guerreros de diente de dragón) aparecen en lo que fue antiguamente el santuario de Némesis.
Shaina, Kiki y Sorrento, que vino percatándose del desastre, contratacan, pero los tres son capturados y llevados por Cadmus, el subordinado de Némesis.
Némesis piensa destruir la tierra como castigo divino por el pecado que hicieron los humanos al matar a los tres dioses principales: Hades, Thanatos e Hypnos.
Los tres escapan gracias al poder de Poseidón.
Junto al revivido Poseidón, se encuentran reunidos los demás Generales que fueron revividos temporalmente y se dirigen a detener a Némesis.

It seems that Hades, before disappearing completely, communicated with Poseidon and indicated that the Earth would be destroyed and temporarily resurrected his generals for the new battle.

The new enemy to defeat is Nemesis (she seems to be the green-haired girl on the cover), the goddess of vengeance, who wishes to destroy the world, as punishment because the Saints killed Hades, Hypnos and Thanatos. The goddess rains meteorites on the Earth.

Poseidon rises and with the help of the Seven Generals, who have temporarily come back to life, will protect the world and fight against this new enemy.

As some fans had mentioned when this new manga was announced, it is basically Soul of Gold 2.0.

One last image of the Generals gathered.

How much involvment did Kuru have with the Hades Arc Anime?

We don't know, I just remember reading or hearing that Kurumada mentioned in an interview that he considers that part of the story the best adaptation of his manga (to be precise, he only refers to the Inferno and Elysion chapters in this way, because Hades Sanctuary changed several parts of his manga).

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

That cover art of Kanon is garbage, this style is only a little acceptable for the Generals due to young how they are not him, why is he even there?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

That cover art of Kanon is garbage, this style is only a little acceptable for the Generals due to young how they are not him, why is he even there?

The drawing style is very strange (at least what we can see in this first chapter, maybe it will improve in the future), it seems that this mangaka tries to imitate Kurumada's style, instead of using his own style like the rest of the mangakas, which makes it look a bit strange. It seems that Kanon was temporarily resurrected along with the rest of the Generals (with the exception of Sorrento who is the only one who didn't die in the original manga), that's why they appear with Surplices in the second image, although we do not know for how long they were resurrected (the last one the Gold Saints were only resurrected for one day), it is only said that they have a temporary life. That's why fans refer to this manga as Soul of Gold 2.0.

It is interesting to see how Hades' power can only resurrect mortals temporarily, perhaps that Hades can grant eternal life to mortals is just a lie, although I remember that he had resurrected Orphee and Eurydice and it seems that he would grant them a normal life, if Pandora and Pharaoh had not trolled them.

I forgot to put this image, it is the cover of the August Champion RED which is dedicated to Dark Wing (the character on the cover is Eito and will probably be the cover of volume 4 of this series).

The contents of the following magazine seem to indicate that October's Champion RED will not have a Dark Wing chapter. The chapter 18 of Dark Wing published this month will have 21 pages.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It wouldn't be surprising if he was simply bluffing about being able to give eternal life honestly, the guy even completely scammed the Specters and lied to them about giving them any immortality at all in the first place.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Eternal life can mean many things. But it's probably more along the lines of "why must i give such lowly creatures eternal life."

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

New images of this chapter.

Spoiler

---

More images:

It seems that Hades left his last will or last trace of cosmos as a Butterfly/Fairy of the Underworld (this resembles Aiolos in Knight of the Zodiac, who left his last will and cosmos as a butterfly to communicate with Marin and grant her mission, a rather strange coincidence) before disappearing completely.

It seems that there will be some feats with the meteorites thrown by Nemesis, finally we have another god that does not take days or years to destroy the surface of the world.

It is a good detail that this mangaka remembered that the Scales are destroyed in this part of the story, it is good to see that a mangaka remembers these details.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

New images of this chapter.

It seems that Hades left his last will or last trace of cosmos as a Butterfly/Fairy of the Underworld (this resembles Aiolos in Knight of the Zodiac, who left his last will and cosmos as a butterfly to communicate with Marin and grant her mission, a rather strange coincidence) before disappearing completely.

It seems that there will be some exploits with the meteorites thrown by Nemesis, finally we have another god that does not take days or years to destroy the surface of the world.

It is a good detail that this mangaka remembered that the Scales are destroyed in this part of the story, it is good to see that a mangaka remembers these details.

your images are broken for me for some reason.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

your images are broken for me for some reason.

I see them fine, but wait a few seconds and I'll upload them to imgur for you to see.

Updated the post, now you should be able to see the images well. Although I have also put the link to the gallery (imgur).

---

I've read, although not confirmed, that this manga will be published irregularly as Next Dimension, so they will only publish a few chapters and then have a break.

 

[StekFence]

The drawing style is very strange (at least what we can see in this first chapter, maybe it will improve in the future), it seems that this mangaka tries to imitate Kurumada's style, instead of using his own style like the rest of the mangakas, which makes it look a bit strange.

Personally, I do like this art style, the resemblance to Kurumadas is cool, but I can tell there are differences, and in my opinion, improvements

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Nemesis will have his own warriors and they were beating Sorrento, Shaina and Kiki, before Poseidon used his trident to teleport them.

Well, we know that the Generals are not at the level of the Gold Saints (Isaac and Kanon were probably the strongest and they were not even really Generals, since they were really training to become Saints), in fact they are so weak that Milo mentions that if they sent him and Aiolia they could easily beat them, but I expected a bit more from Sorrento, well maybe he did not have time to use the curse of his Flute and decrease the strength of his opponents (without this curse, we know that Aldebaran could have killed him with a single move). Although perhaps he was also defeated because his armor was damaged.

---

An interesting detail I forgot to mention is that this is the first manga where we can see Caça/Kasa without his helmet.

The design of his hair is based on the character's Myth Cloth, in which Kurumada is said to have participated and designed the character's hair.

Personally, I do like this art style, the resemblance to Kurumadas is cool, but I can tell there are differences, and in my opinion, improvements.

Yes, the drawing style of this mangaka has some differences, although for the moment it is unknown if this was intentional or simply because he still can't completely imitate Kurumada's style.

Nemesis' design looks like a combination of Pallas' design and Eris' design.

She is even one of the few gods in manga that takes as a base the main universe to have a non-human trait such as wings on her back, the first one was Eris who also had wings, but I think she created the wings with her cosmos or at least it seems so, since at the end she has no wings when she wears her armor. The gods in Kurumada's manga usually look just like humans with nothing different.

The question is if she will be able to fly with those wings, because in this image (this also confirms that she summons meteorites with her own power) she appears on a column instead of flying, a scene reminiscent of Ker standing on a column to see from above.

It should be remembered that the gods in Kurumada's manga (StS, ND, Zero, Destiny and Origin) are never shown flying, although it is likely that they could, as some of them have shown psychokinetic abilities.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

New LC side story?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Some images from chapter 2 of Time Odyssey and this is the chapter that completes Volume 1 of this story.

Time Odyssey: confira fotos do segundo volume lançado no Japão!

A revista japonesa Champion Red foi oficialmente lançada no Japão e com isso tivemos acesso a segunda parte da HQ oficial dos Cavaleiros do Zodíaco, a Time Odyssey, produzida pelos franceses Jérôme Alquie e Arnaud Dollen, sob licença do mestre Masami Kurumada. Conforme divulgamos no lançamento...

www.cavzodiaco.com.br

It seems that Ikki and the Moiras fought on a different plane and changed fate and the timeline, altering the fact that Ikki was originally chosen as Hades' host and, in the process, altering Hades' entire destiny as well. The main universe is basically a timeline altered by the Moiras.

I always wanted to see the Moiras in a Saint Seiya story and although I can say that their participation in this chapter was good, but I would have liked them to be the main antagonists of this story.

A bit of Guilty and Shaina's past is also shown.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Some images from chapter 2 of Time Odyssey and this is the chapter that completes Volume 1 of this story.

Time Odyssey: confira fotos do segundo volume lançado no Japão!

A revista japonesa Champion Red foi oficialmente lançada no Japão e com isso tivemos acesso a segunda parte da HQ oficial dos Cavaleiros do Zodíaco, a Time Odyssey, produzida pelos franceses Jérôme Alquie e Arnaud Dollen, sob licença do mestre Masami Kurumada. Conforme divulgamos no lançamento...

www.cavzodiaco.com.br

It seems that Ikki and the Moiras fought on a different plane and changed fate and the timeline, altering the fact that Ikki was originally chosen as Hades' host and, in the process, altering Hades' entire destiny as well. The main universe is basically a timeline altered by the Moiras.

I always wanted to see the Moiras in a Saint Seiya story and although I can say that their participation in this chapter was good, but I would have liked them to be the main antagonists of this story.

A bit of Guilty and Shaina's past is also shown.

did you see where kairos was mentioned?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

So Time Odyssey might be part of the main universe right?

Kurumada seems to be quite on board with it.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It is interesting to see how these spin-offs interpret Hades' defeat as only losing his body in battle, this indicates that Athena never affects or destroys his soul in any way during the fight, and only destroys his body.

In Rerise of Poseidon, Hades clearly mentions that he lost his mythological body, his army of evil/demonic stars and his kingdom built with care by him, it is never mentioned in any way that his soul was damaged in any way, that is why we see the god communicating with Poseidon through a Fairy of the Underworld before disappearing, in short this is similar to Aiolos talking to Aiolia through his armor. So in this story it is clarified that Athena does not destroy or damage the soul of the god, curious because even Ikki in the original was going to destroy the soul of this god, perhaps they used the excuse of Athena's goodness and that is why she did not destroy the soul of this god or simply these authors consider that Athena cannot destroy souls.

This is also mentioned in the description of Saint Seiya Tencent, where it is said that Athena's attack only destroys Hades' body and this caused his soul to fall into an eternal sleep. Although in this story it seems that the Underworld was not completely destroyed and only the structures of this place were destroyed.

It seems that these stories and the writers consider the immortality of the gods to be less impressive even than expected and if you destroy his body, the god is basically defeated and will not be able to return by conventional means, although eventually if the situation arises or he receives outside help he may return, basically an immortality completely useless for combat.

If Kurumada follows this concept, although it is unlikely, or if Rerise of Poseidon is canon (because, well, the videogame is not canon in any way), because we know nothing about it, it indicates that the immortality of the gods is ridiculous, because they have no level of regeneration, they can basically die from insignificant damage to their bodies, and the fact that they can exist as a soul is something completely useless, since they are as useless as mortals in this form, because they cannot possess any body (only a destined human) and cannot interact freely with the world.

---

Although well, in Rerise of Poseidon it is also mentioned again that Hades created the Underworld and it is literally said that the Underworld disappeared completely after his defeat in this battle, it is even said that the Saints are currently floating in a place without heaven or earth, and we basically see an empty space, something similar to the space left when Zeno destroyed the universes in Dragon Ball Super.

This also indicates that Athena's barriers withstood the destruction of this place, previously I believed they had escaped the destruction of this place, so Athena proves once again why she is the superior goddess in this, even Hades believed she was going to die in the destruction of this place, but she not only survives but also protects the five Bronze Saints.

 

[AlexZiggy]

... when it is stated Hades' soul perished in classic?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

... when it is stated Hades' soul perished in classic?

The fact that he is said to have died and everything disappeared with him, something that had never happened when Athena defeated him, and even Ikki was going to destroy the soul of this god with his attack, when he was in Shun's body. And Hades in his last words never mentions that he would return in any form, he even just gives a warning to the goddess about how humans will never change and she was wrong.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I think even for the og story it was always kinda implied that they have no super regeneration because of Poseidons reliance on the Solo family, and the whole notion of Hades finding the need to “protect” his body in Elysion, which sounds weirdly pointless if he can just regenerate.

Although as far as spin-offs go, Iapetos blood did heal Aiolia so there’s that I guess.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I think even for the og story it was always kinda implied that they have no super regeneration because of Poseidons reliance on the Solo family, and the whole notion of Hades finding the need to “protect” his body in Elysion, which sounds weirdly pointless if he can just regenerate.

Although as far as spin-offs go, Iapetos blood did heal Aiolia so there’s that I guess.

If this is basically true, it was never mentioned that these characters have some kind of super regeneration and even the story itself contradicts it, perhaps the only thing that indicates something different is the fact that Kurumada in his latest works seems to indicate that a sacred treasure is needed to kill an immortal god.

True, the gods seem to have some limited healing powers, for example Athena heals Shijima's wounds with her cosmos or heals Kanon's wound from Poseidon's Trident with her cosmos, but that's basically all, a very limited healing.

 

[AlexZiggy]

The fact that he is said to have died and everything disappeared with him, something that had never happened when Athena defeated him, and even Ikki was going to destroy the soul of this god with his attack, when he was in Shun's body. And Hades in his last words never mentions that he would return in any form, he even just gives a warning to the goddess about how humans will never change and she was wrong.

Ok... but he's back. So either he died and came back or he's just not dead

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ok... but he's back. So either he died and came back or he's just not dead

In Kurumada's manga he never came back and has not appeared again in the whole Next Dimension, which is the sequel written by him. And in the spin-offs as I mentioned this scene is interpreted as Athena only destroying the body of this god, so the god's soul still exists, although it is almost completely useless in that form and cannot interact freely with the world.

 

[AlexZiggy]

We really need to have a discussion and analysis on what types of existence the gods possess, including bodies, soul, Divine Will, conceptual nature and the like sp we can figure out what's what.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

@Lancelot_de_Cancer Along with regeneration, another detail that came to my mind again with Time Odyseyy showing how Hades’ destiny was changed is about the gods being “acausal”, which seems to become a sillier and sillier notion as the story progresses.

Although even besides Time Odyssey, this was honestly kinda implied (that they don’t transcend time) when the latest chapters of ND clearly showed how Sasha’s fate and history was completely altered by the changes caused by Saori traveling to the past where she becomes bedridden and we see how the history of everyone in the universe is changing (Alone and by extension Hades and his actions are affected too).

 

[AlexZiggy]

He's still active in RoP so

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

@Lancelot_de_Cancer Along with regeneration, another detail that came to my mind again with Time Odyseyy showing how Hades’ destiny was changed is about the gods being “acausal”, which seems to become a sillier and sillier notion as the story progresses.

Although even besides Time Odyssey, this was honestly kinda implied (that they don’t transcend time) when the latest chapters of ND clearly showed how Sasha’s fate and history was completely altered by the changes caused by Saori traveling to the past where she becomes bedridden and we see how the history of everyone in the universe is changing (Alone and by extension Hades and his actions are affected too).

Type 1 and 2 Acausality never made sense in this franchise to be honest, although I don't know if they could ever get any other type of Acasuality or this ability doesn't make any sense for the characters in this franchise.

Also TLC has a timeline completely altered by Avenir's time travel, which changed the past and gave rise to the story as we saw it in TLC, since in the original timeline, Hades won the battle and most of the Saints and Athena were killed. So basically we always had indications that the gods were not Sol Badguy, who only resists the fact that he was killed in the past, and changes in time affect them.

He's still active in RoP so

As I mentioned it is made clear that Athena only destroys Hades' body in this story, therefore it clearly says that in this battle he lost his beloved mythological body, his evil stars and his kingdom that he created with great care, basically he lost everything, and he only exists as a soul, as any mortal exists as a soul after his body has been destroyed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't see where its stated that Hades fate was manipulated.

and Super Regeneration was always a thing in the classic. Hades, and Poseidon kept coming back to challenge Athena. Hades was stated to keep coming back every 200 to 250 years.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I don't see where its stated that Hades fate was manipulated.

and Super Regeneration was always a thing in the classic. Hades, and Poseidon kept coming back to challenge Athena. Hades was stated to keep coming back every 200 to 250 years.

Literally his destined body changed and the future or destiny where he defeated Athena thanks to Ikki's body changed.

This has nothing to do with immortality or regeneration, especially when Athena only seals her enemies, because she is a kind-hearted goddess, and every time these gods return they need the body of the human destined to carry their soul to return. There is nothing that talks about regeneration and in any scene we can see these beings regenerating their body completely after being destroyed.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I don't see where its stated that Hades fate was manipulated.

and Super Regeneration was always a thing in the classic. Hades, and Poseidon kept coming back to challenge Athena. Hades was stated to keep coming back every 200 to 250 years.

It’s stated that the real body that Hades has protected is the same body born from Kronos and Rhea since the Age of Myths, so it’s not referring to him regenerating his body, Athena never even entered the Underworld to fight that body until the 1990 Holy War.