Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[TheUnshakableOne]

~pretty sure the two are not mutually exclusive. Well, maybe haven't read GA~

Shiryu makes references to events that happened in ND. He knows about what happeend and talks about it to Shura not in vivid detail though, but enough for us to know hes talking about events in ND

Hyoga knew who Chronos was and even referenced him as the Hourglass which can only be known through the events of ND


You also have someone like Deathtoll appearing too (I think that was his name?)

there was other instances too but i forgot them lol

they'll probably come to me while im at work and don't have my phone lmao

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Nothing is canon to anything because every work has minor inconsistencies with one another irrespective of author

Major* there i corrected that

 

[Hasty12345]

Izo appeared as well

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Izo appeared as well

in a flashback with a Shura who came from another dimension/timeline/universe iirc

 

[Hasty12345]

n a flashback with a Shura who came from another dimension/timeline/universe iirc

Yeah, Shura is from a different timeline iirc, but Izo did appear when Shura was falling into the UW at some point iirc

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Due to the inconsistencies between Classic and ND, should we separate the canons?

No, Next Dimension is a canonical sequel to the original manga, and is written and drawn by Masami Kurumada himself, so this is not a spin-off written by a completely different author, with little or no involvement from Kurumada.

Shiryu makes references to events that happened in ND. He knows about what happeend and talks about it to Shura not in vivid detail though, but enough for us to know hes talking about events in ND

Hyoga knew who Chronos was and even referenced him as the Hourglass which can only be known through the events of ND

You also have someone like Deathtoll appearing too (I think that was his name?)

there was other instances too but i forgot them lol

they'll probably come to me while im at work and don't have my phone lmao

Shiryu never refers to the events that happened in ND and even does not have the Dragon Pearl that the dragon god gave him in that story.

Hyoga only mentions Cronos, but never specifies whether this is the titan or the god. Also, Chronos from Next Dimension is not a clock.

Deathtoll has a completely different appearance from the one shown in ND, and may be similar to Izo, who is a different version of the character and even survives the holy war, something different from what is described in Zero where everyone is said to have died.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Shiryu never refers to the events that happened in ND

He does and i refuse to debate someone who admits they don't understand the franchise and constantly contradicts their own arguments and lies

and even does not have the Dragon Pearl that the dragon god gave him in that story.

irrelevant needless nitpicking
Art changes doesn't equate to non-canoncity

Hyoga only mentions Cronos, but never specifies whether this is the titan or the god. Also, Cronos from Next Dimension is not a clock.

So your saying Titan King Cronos in G is an Hourglass and has no other form? So you admit their the same person? Proof that ND Chronos isn't just a clock? Where is it?

Hyoga calling him "the hourglass" is just a human expression to describe the God and his power. But Hyoga would only know aout this through the events of ND.

Deathtoll has a completely different appearance from the one shown in ND, and may be similar to Izo, who is a different version of the character and even survives the holy war, something different from what is described in Zero where everyone is said to have died.

Again changes in art style is not enough separate timelines. Also if EVERYONE did die then Shion and Dohko would also be dead.


EDIT: Also i'll be leaving for work soon.

 

[Hasty12345]

Tbf, Izo would be from Shura’s timeline, so there’s no contradiction from him being alive

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

He does and i refuse to debate someone who admits they don't understand the franchise and constantly contradicts their own arguments and lies.

No, as I demonstrated several times you don't understand the franchise and even seem to have never read Kurumada's manga.

irrelevant needless nitpicking
Art changes doesn't equate to non-canoncity

It is not irrevelant, because this is not only an artistic issue, and a divine artifact that Shiryu got in that manga, which was a main part of Shiryu's story in Next Dimension.

So your saying Titan King Cronos in G is an Hourglass and has no other form? So you admit their the same person?

Cronos of Episode.G also has a clock and uses that clock to alter the time. Chronos of ND is not a clock, he just created a clock to indicate the time Athena has to complete her mission in the past.

Again changes in art style is not enough separate timelines. Also if EVERYONE did die then Shion and Dohko would also be dead.

It has nothing to do with a change of style, since the character has a completely different appearance, because he is wearing modern clothes, which indicates that he lived in the future and also he is not wearing a wig, so he is not bald.

Tbf, Izo would be from Shura’s timeline, so there’s no contradiction from him being alive

Yes, just like Deathtoll, he is probably from a different timeline, who came to that future (even Deathmask also refers to Deathtoll as his master, similar to how Izo was Shura's master), that's why he has modern clothes.

 

[Hasty12345]

Hyoga refers to the event in which Athena uses Chronos’ power to travel timelines, there’s no way Hyoga could have met Cronus or know about him because he was sealed in Tartarus before Hyoga became a Saint.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

No, as I demonstrated several times you don't understand the franchise and even seem to have never read Kurumada's manga.

all im going to say before i go to work.

you admitted you don't understand anything

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Hyoga refers to the event in which Athena uses Chronos’ power to travel timelines, there’s no way Hyoga could have met Cronus or know about him because he was sealed in Tartarus before Hyoga became a Saint.

The Saints must know the history of the Sanctuary, even Shion mentions the name of Pontus in Requiem, even though he should not know this enemy. The power of time control is an ability that the Titan Cronos also possesses in Episode.G.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

all im going to say before i go to work.

you admitted you don't understand anything

When I admitted that, at that moment I was talking to Hasty, who said that I don't understand anything, that's why I answered that way to his comment, but clearly I understand this manga better than you do.

 

[Hasty12345]

G is written as a prequel to Classic

GA is written as a sequel to Classic

No matter how you look at it; With the exception of final edition, Zero, destiny and origins, the events of Classic are intended to be canonical to G and GA. There is no way around this.

No amount of head canon miscontextualisation of the text will change this.

 

[Hasty12345]

The Saints must know the history of the Sanctuary, even Shion mentions the name of Pontus in Requiem, even though he should not know this enemy. The power of time control is an ability that the Titan Cronos also possesses in Episode.G.

Head canon.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

G is written as a prequel to Classic

GA is written as a sequel to Classic

No matter how you look at it; With the exception of final edition, Zero, destiny and origins, the events of Classic are intended to be canonical to G and GA. There is no way around this.

No amount of head canon miscontextualisation of the text will change this.

GA is written with the concept of the multiverse, hence the concept of different worlds.

Even the future world of GA has different details from those seen in the MO, that's why Kanon and Rada are alive, and the Underworld still exists, although in the original manga this world disappeared. Seiya has the Pegasus armor in the version that appeared in the last scene of Overture.

The worlds in that manga are just variants of the original, some may have small different details and others may be completely different.

What was presented in Next Dimension will never be part of GA and GR, because Okada doesn't know what will happen in that manga in the future, similar to how Shiori also didn't know what will happen in Next Dimension, and that's why there is inconcistency how the Specters are affected by the Seki Shiki in TLC when in later chapters of Next Dimension it is said that this technique doesn't affect the Specters.

The rest is just headcanon on your part.

Head canon.

No, this is something that has always been handled in the franchise, where they even have records of old battles.

 

[Hasty12345]

I initially wrote out a massive response to this as you’re wrong, very very wrong. However, the truth would likely result in a surge of untrue downgrade CRT’s based on misinterpretations of my response.

 

[StekFence]

inconcistency how the Specters are affected by the Seki Shiki in TLC when

Or.... Manigold just built different

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Or.... Manigold just built different

That's basically how it is. Good saints and Specters are bound by time. There not independent of the multiverse like the Gods are.There is infinitely many variations of them.

Therefore one gold saints technique will vary greatly in power for example comparing Tenbu horin of Asmita vs TH of Shaka

Manigold is the beat shown cancer Saint imo

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Or.... Manigold just built different

The main version of the technique is similar, the only difference is that he cannot destroy the opponent's soul in the Yomotsu and has to use a variant for that. The difference is that Specters are immune to this technique in Next Dimension and TLC does not have this immunity.

That's basically how it is. Good saints and Specters are bound by time. There not independent of the multiverse like the Gods are.There is infinitely many variations of them.

There are also infinite variants of the gods, even several gods are very different in some universes, for example the Ares of Sho is very different from the Ares of TLC, even his army is different. That is why the concepts and abilities, and resistances may vary in the different series of the franchise.

The Specters in Next Dimension have a resistance to attacks like Seki Shiki that TLC Specters do not have, and similar to this TLC Specters cannot age because Hades gives them immortality, contrary to Saint Seiya where Specters can age (even Suikyo could be affected by the gate of old age in the Temple of Virgo). This is something that happens, because the chapter of Next Dimension in which Kurumada explained that the Specters are immune to attacks like Seki Shiki was published several years later, so Shiori could not have known this fact.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

There are also infinite variants of the gods, even several gods are very different in some universes, for example the Ares of Sho is very different from the Ares of TLC, even his army is different. That is why the concepts and abilities, and resistances may vary in the different series of the franchise.

The Specters in Next Dimension have a resistance to attacks like Seki Shiki that TLC Specters do not have, and similar to this TLC Specters cannot age because Hades gives them immortality, contrary to Saint Seiya where Specters can age (even Suikyo could be affected by the gate of old age).

Classic head Canon and manipulating context and ignoring Balant scans to suit your narrative

How typical

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Classic head Canon and manipulating context and ignoring Balant scans to suit your narrative

How typical

This is what is shown and described in the manga, as opposed to a head canon as gods with multiversal existence that is never described in the franchise, there are even clear examples such as the different versions of Ares in two series of the franchise. But you will continue with this nonsense until the end.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is what is shown and described in the manga, as opposed to a head canon as gods with multiversal existence that is never described in the franchise, there are even clear examples such as the different versions of Ares in two series of the franchise. But you will continue with this nonsense until the end.

You continue to ignore direct quotes in GA that directly state their is only 1 god.

And you constantly make stuff up. And if you have forgotten Gods take host bodies and use a "hive mind collective" approach to them by use of their Divine Will. Which you continue to falsely say the Divine Will is their soul which is false. I also find it odd that you took that route after the 10th sense being stated to be the Divine Will in GR. How peculiar

You continue to create false narratives until the very end.

At the end of the say well never agree on anything from each other so it becomes a circle.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

You continue to ignore direct quotes in GA that directly state their is only 1 god.

And you constantly make stuff up. And if you have forgotten Gods take host bodies and use a "hive mind collective" approach to them by use of their Divine Will. Which you continue to falsely say the Divine Will is their soul which is false. I also find it odd that you took that route after the 10th sense being stated to be the Divine Will in GR. How peculiar

You continue to create false narratives until the very end.

GA never says that, even that manga is one of the works in this franchise that shows more variants of a god, that's why three different versions of Athena appeared in the story, and one of those variants (Yoshino and Tomoe) is very different from Saori. The rest of the franchise also confirms this, as we can see very different variants of the gods, for example Sho's Ares and TLC's Ares, MO's Hades and DW's Hades, etc.

Again with this nonsense, the gods represent a divine will (described in this way in the Taizen), but this says nothing about this topic. When we speak of a multiversal existence, gods are no different from humans and similar to them there are countless variants throughout the multiverse.

You just continue with nonsense that is never described in the manga.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

You seem to forgotten that GA established that no 2 same existence can exist in the same universe Thus Tomoe, Yoshino, and Soari are all 1 Athena. Human bodies sharing the same mind and soul of Athena. Yoshino and tomoe are twins. Yoshino existed in the same universe as Soari for 16 years. Yet nothing happened. This directly implies their the same being in a different body. Aka a hive mind.

Also, Zeus and Hades have explicit statements proving a singular existence

GR confirms that the pontos we see os the same from Episode G as he directly references those events. Now i ask you this. If every universe has its own God why does G Pontos need to unseal the primordials in the GR universe hhmm

Sho Ares of literally saga. Not even true body Ares.

Where is tlc Ares shown BTW?

DW isn't developed yet but it's perhaps the absolute most disconnected from everything else. I dare say it's the only truly noncanon part of the series.


Anyways I got stuff to do this weekend so imma stop here.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yoshino only wakes up as Athena in the last chapter of the manga and we don't know what will happen to her after that (because they still don't develop her plot in Requiem), and Tomoe disappeared as did the Gladiators, Gold Saints and Aiolos after the portal closed. Kiki and Shion existed in the same world for more than 16 years and never had that problem. Yoshino does not have Saori's memories and does not share her soul with her, she is simply the Athena of another world, an Athena completely different from her, she is even described as having a unique power known as dance (one that only she and her sister possess).

Zeus and Hades never show any of that, we can even see the two different versions of Hades.

This only indicates the events of Episode.G happened in that world, and that's why it has a Pontus version, after all this is the end of Saga Episode.G and that's why the author returns to the Pontus plan.

Ares Sho appears in a memory of Deimos and Phobos from the mythological era, and in a memory of Eris, and during these memories we can see the true appearance of Ares in Saintia Sho, and how he is completely different from the TLC version of Ares named in the Aquarius Gaiden. Even his army appears in the Gemini Gaiden (Defteros), and this army is also different from the army of Saintia Sho.

It is as canon as the rest of the spin-offs of the franchise, and it is the most recent spin-off of the franchise, so it uses the new concepts and ideas that Kurumada introduces in the franchise in his latest works, and in this work we can also see that there are different versions of the gods. A concept that is also similar in TLC, even Shiori herself is involved in the development of Dark Wing.

Kurumada never describes anything like that in his work, even Athena never mentions that she is a hive mind, a multiversal existence or anything like that (even Hades mentions that he was going to kill Athena, and Athena killed Hades by erasing him forever and Hades' world of the dead disappeared with the death of the god), you should know this if you had read the Original Manga/Final Edition, Next Dimension, Zero, Origin and Destiny (main canon of this franchise).

 

[StekFence]

Kiki and Shion existed in the same world for more than 16 years and never had that problem

In fairness, they aren’t the same person

 

[Hasty12345]

The fact you used Kiki and Shion as a counter example shows you don’t understand a basic concept introduced in G.

Athena also reincarnates as a human and does not exhibit God physiology the same way Hades, Pontos and Zeus do. Athena is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

In fairness, they aren’t the same person

They are the same existence as two Aries Saints, similar to how Camus and Hyoga were destined to fight because they were the same existence as Aquarius Saints.

 

[Hasty12345]

You have misinterpreted the concept. You clearly do not understand this manga.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

You have misinterpreted the concept. You clearly do not understand this manga.

That is the concept handled in the series, and if it were otherwise, Saori and Yoshino are completely different Athenas, and the latter only awakened as Athena in the final chapter, before that she could not manifest the cosmos of the goddess and was a normal girl.

Athena also reincarnates as a human and does not exhibit God physiology the same way Hades, Pontos and Zeus do. Athena is the exception, not the rule.

Athena's reincarnation as a human only makes her lose her immortality, she ages like humans, although the Saints still need a divine weapon to kill the goddess, and also her blood, her cosmos and even her hair are still divine. The difference with those gods is that she does not use a human body as a husped for her spirit, Saori's body is the real body of Athena only that she has reincarnated as a humana. Poseidon and Hades use the human body for some reason, we do not know what happened to Poseidon's real body and why he exists in the world only as a spirit, and Hades does not use his real body because he does not want to be harmed, although in the end he uses it and is destroyed forever.

 

[Hasty12345]

That is the concept handled in the series, and if it were otherwise, Yoshino and Saori are completely different Athenas.

No it's not. Shion and Kiki don't kill one another as they do not share the same existence as the Aries Saint. Camus is summoned from the past at a moment he was the Aquarius Saint to a time Hyoga was also the Aquarius Saint, hence they share an existence. Camus also had his own Aquarius cloth from another universe, these cloths act as a catalyst for like Ikki's and Aiolia's cloth did for their encounter. The cloths signified their shared existence, something Shion and Kiki do not share as Shion is no longer the Aries Saint, Kiki is.

Shion is no longer the Aries Saint, he does not share the same existence as Kiki.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

No it's not. Shion and Kiki don't kill one another as they do not share the same existence as the Aries Saint. Camus is summoned from the past at a moment he was the Aquarius Saint to a time Hyoga was also the Aquarius Saint, hence they share an existence.

Shion is no longer the Aries Saint, he does not share the same existence as Kiki.

Shion is still a Aries Saint, he even presents himself as the Aries Saint in front of Seiya in Kiki's absence. Shion is summoned from the past, when he was still the Aries Saint, that's why he has a young body.

Camus also had his own Aquarius cloth from another universe, these cloths act as a catalyst for like Ikki's and Aiolia's cloth did for their encounter. The cloths signified their shared existence, something Shion and Kiki do not share as Shion is no longer the Aries Saint, Kiki is.

That is the Cloth that Aiolos gave him (and this only happens when he was released from the ice), which is the Cloth of his universe, and when Camus came to the world he was not wearing that Cloth.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shion was the Saint who performed the summoning spell to begin with, he couldn't have summoned himself. Kiki became the Aries Saint after Shion lost his arms and eye sight.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Shion was the Saint who performed the summoning spell to begin with, he couldn't have summoned himself. Kiki became the Aries Saint after Shion lost his arms and eye sight.

Both continued to be Aries Saints, because Shion never abandoned the Cloth, so he can use it again.

 

[Hasty12345]

Both continued to be Aries Saints, because Shion never abandoned the Cloth, so he can use it again.

Literally not the point. I'm not saying Shion is NOT an Aries Saint, I'm saying he's not THE Aries Saint. As Shion became the Pope and later a Spectre etc etc. Nothing says Shion cannot wear the Aries cloth, he's just not the current Aries Saint, Kiki is. How you cannot see the difference is beyond me.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Literally not the point. I'm not saying Shion is NOT an Aries Saint, I'm saying he's not THE Aries Saint. As Shion became the Pope and later a Spectre etc etc. Nothing says Shion cannot wear the Aries cloth, he's just not the current Aries Saint, Kiki is. How you cannot see the difference is beyond me.

Because he was unfit due to the damage he suffered to his arms and eyes at the time, but this doesn't change that he is wearing the armor again, which means he was always the Aries Saint. Canon is actually the Pope and is not wearing the Cloth (even he was never the real Gemini Saint and is still use the Golden Triangle), but this is still supposed to affect Saga (who also became a Specter), even when he didn't come into the world wearing a Cloth.

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm not going to continue arguing, you're literally a brick wall.

 

[Xxiaa]

So the screenwriter Koyama who worked on the z anime and it’s movies as well as saint seiya anime had this to say when asked if the saints are able to destroy the universe.

He didn’t fully understand the question I think. I added a deep L translation to be more accurate

 

[Hasty12345]

He’s been very vocal on Twitter recently, I wouldn’t take anything he says at any kind of value tbh.

He says Buuhan > Kid Buu, which for the manga is nothing but true. For the anime however, there are guides and scaling that massively contradict that, and Kid Buu is arguably >>> Buuhan in the anime - something he worked on.