Saint Seiya Complete Verse Overhual - Revenge of Tier 1 Upgrades -

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Machine translating what he said, he’s just saying when he tried to explain it, his friend cut him off

His friend cut him off because he found what he was saying crazy (lol), and he even talks about how has trouble explaining it and finding the right word choice, which definitely gives the impression his ideas on it aren't exactly completely coherent and fleshed out. And it's no coincidence that in regards to that, the one time it's mentioned in the manga, it has 0 further elaboration whatsoever or brought up again.

the second quote seems to actually confirm some kind of layered universes. The above Person says he imagines it as Mille Feuille or pie crust. And the response is, “Mille-feuille... ah, the close-knit doughs overlapping each other in their own dimensions to form a universe...” Mille feuille is a multi layered pastry, which translates roughly to thousand sheets. There’s nothing to me that shows he doesn’t understand it. Unless I’m missing something?

He describes it as 密接した生地 that overlap each other in each dimension, not universes. 密接した生地 means something along the lines of closely woven fabrics. This sounds a lot more like describing the dimensional makeup of a universe than other universes into one (which makes no sense as separate universes are separate).

Rough translation of Okada's tweet by the way

"ミルフィーユ…ああ、密接した生地がそれぞれの次元で重なり合いながら宇宙を形成している的な…"

"Mille-feuille... Ah, it's like closely knit layers overlapping in their respective dimensions, forming the universe or something like that..."

So if you want to use these random tweets and take Okada's ramblings on twitter as any indication, if he's to compare the "multidimensional universe" as in structure similar to a Mille-feuille, then he'd agree with my interpretation.

No, because he's referring to 生地 "fabrics" overlapping each other to form a universe, which sounds a lot more like describing the dimensional structure of a universe rather than something about multiple universes. The food comparison is in reference to the structural connection and overlap between these fabrics (the layers of a Mille-feuille being these overlapping fabrics) . If anything this clearly goes against the idea of timelines, because different timelines aren't connected in such a manner, but it does work when contemplating how a single universe is composed.

Beyond that, his last known use of the kanji 多次元 in the manga is in reference to an object that connects timelines together.

Spoiler: Multidimensional gateway

the scans provide context as to how the term multidimensional is used both in general and between the 2 relevant characters having the conversion (Kido and Shura) and from many other characters who use the terms to mean timelines.

to say an object is multidimensional is to say it is an object that connects to or holds multiple dimensions in someway, combine the fact Shura says Universes hold timelines and the fact the universe is multidimensional is to say universes are 2-C to 2-A structures. Dohko in no fashion makes any claim as to the way whihc universes and worlds are connected to one another and instead focuses more on the relationships between worlds themselves, such a structure is elaborated on by other characters like Shura and Kido.

Kido uses dimension or understands dimension to refer to timelines, I have fulfilled my burden of proof in showing contextually what dimensions are, how the term multidimensional is to be interpreted and I don't accept your skepticism or claims of lack of context to be at all compelling, nor should they be considered arguments.

It seems that you still don't seem to understand that none of this was ever denied to be the case, because it's not the problem, which is that these scenes and their contexts are completely different and unrelated to the offhand one time mention of multi dimensional universes, and the issue of dimension having numerous meanings, no matter who's saying it.

In no case would this be as high as 2-A, which is for the totality of the multiverse, which unlike the blog in the OP, you don't seem to be arguing that "universe" means that in particular. Dohko and Shiryu when they use world there are referring to individual timelines, and Dohko places world (timeline) above universe with the order he lists them as he escalates the scale of his explanation on the cosmology, which again, is perfectly congruent with Shura's "worlds hold universes" line. Dohko doesn't make a direct claim about how they're connected, but the fact he even bothers to list world AFTER mentioning universe before already speaks for itself.

What shouldn't be considered an argument is speculating one interpretation of a word with numerous meanings and pushing it as conclusive fact with no context to suggest that's the case, while simultaneously refusing to consider any details that go against it and distort the very definition of universe into something it's not. But you're free to reject my thoughts, at the end of the day, it's the moderator vote that counts.

 

[Hasty12345]

I guess this matter can mostly be settled by having a wiki translator translate the Shura scan is it's translation and thus interpretation underpins both of our arguments...




@Executor_N0, @anyothertranslator

I would also like to point out (given it's a cosmology relevant point), that both times Okada references time, worlds and dimensions in the same panel consecutively, he's changed the order. Hence why the ordering in the Dohko scan shouldn't be used as indicators of cosmological significance and we should take the explanations of the relationship between those objects to take precedence - Okada has not taken care as to the order he places these cosmological objects/concepts.

 

[Hasty12345]

I would also like to point out for those following along, as JJ and I are using characters when referring to scans:

Spoiler: Dohko

Spoiler: Shura

Spoiler: Kido/Brontes (same guy) he's the black armoured foot in the top left

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I thought we'd already agreed from what other translators said and what every dictionary says that it could be either or and it's a matter of context (though this now sounds a bit charitable to me, it's really weird to interpret "world having universe" to "universe has worlds" and take something the opposite to what it's worded as), but sure.

I would also like to point out (given it's a cosmology relevant point), that both times Okada references time, worlds and dimensions in the same panel consecutively, he's changed the order. Hence why the ordering in the Dohko scan shouldn't be used as indicators of cosmological significance and we should take the explanations of the relationship between those objects to take precedence - Okada has not taken care as to the order he places these cosmological objects/concepts.

This isn't the same as Dohko's dialogue though, because per even your own explanation earlier, we know that Okada sees "dimension and world" as outright synonymous and interchanges them in dialogue, whereas Dohko wasn't talking in terms of synonyms but escalating in scale as he explained the cosmology to Shiryu (universe-->world-->the multiverse).




At any rate, if we're past this topic for now until a translator responds, I'd like to bring attention back to this point and the focus of the main proposed revision.

In no case would this be as high as 2-A, which is for the totality of the multiverse, which unlike the blog in the OP, you don't seem to be arguing that "universe" means that in particular.

Regardless of universe structure, per this, it especially doesn't come out to infinity^infinity, even aside from what @Deagonx explained about the MWI standards. In any case, as I said at the start none of the information in this thread places the multiverse any higher than the 2-A rating it already has.

 

[Hasty12345]

I thought we'd already agreed from what other translators said and what every dictionary says that it could be either or and it's a matter of context (though this now sounds a bit charitable to me, it's really weird to interpret "world having universe" to "universe has worlds" and take something the opposite to what it's worded as), but sure.

Mind you, not a single person I've ever spoken to in any way who is a native English speaker has EVER come to your conclusion based SOLELY on the Shura scan for ANY translation presented whether it be Tiv's, machine translation or multiple human translations. So i don't know where you're getting "opposite to how it's worded" from.

This isn't the same as Dohko's dialogue though, because per even your own explanation earlier, we know that Okada sees "dimension and world" as outright synonymous and interchanges them in dialogue, whereas Dohko wasn't talking in terms of synonyms but escalating in scale as he explained the cosmology to Shiryu (universe-->world-->the multiverse).

No, dimension is always last - Alice escalates in scale (time -> world - > universe), Zeus disregards scale (world -> time -> dimension) or vice versa, who tf knows, the point is Okada clearly changes cosmological order on a whim/doesn't take care as to how these structures are ordered in speech.

And Dimension and world are only synonymous in their capacity as both referring to timelines, similar to DC's "infinite Earths" (those Earths occupy different timelines) but if a character in DC were to say "another dimension" you'd also understand that to typically mean another Earth/timeline permitted the context.

I'm saying the context Okada provides typically uses the term "world" to refer to another Earth (hence why I find your interpretation so weird, saying worlds > universe - side note, bet you'd never agree to Saga being able to shake timelines with Galaxian Explosion, and instead interpret world to mean planet), and dimension to be referring to the timeline holistically.

To summarise if that's too clogged up, parallel world/world/worlds typically Earth from another timeline, dimension, refers to the timeline in a more general sense. They are synonymous in their referral to another timeline, not in their specific reference to what attribute of the timeline. and we see this as evident throughout the series as I've shown above with Shura constantly flipping between the two and Aiolos connecting dimensions such as lost world and GA world yet calling them worlds and dimensions interchangeably.

Regardless of universe structure, per this, it especially doesn't come out to infinity^infinity, even aside from what @Deagonx explained about the MWI standards. In any case, as I said at the start none of the information in this thread places the multiverse any higher than the 2-A rating it already has.

I have no horse in that race.

And please stop telling people the verse already has an accepted 2-A cosmology, it's misinformation. The anime and manga were split - in case you missed that section of the CRT we spent 5 pages arguing over nothing - neither of which have any currently accepted cosmology.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Mind you, not a single person I've ever spoken to in any way who is a native English speaker has EVER come to your conclusion based SOLELY on the Shura scan for ANY translation presented whether it be Tiv's, machine translation or multiple human translations. So i don't know where you're getting "opposite to how it's worded" from.

Not my problem, it's basic diction that "world holds universe" is an opposite description to "universe holds world." Just look up 持ち on a dictionary if you want to see some more insight on this.

No, dimension is always last - Alice escalates in scale (time -> world - > universe), Zeus disregards scale (world -> time -> dimension) or vice versa, who tf knows, the point is Okada clearly changes cosmological order on a whim/doesn't take care as to how these structures are ordered in speech.

And Dimension and world are only synonymous in their capacity as both referring to timelines, similar to DC's "infinite Earths" (those Earths occupy different timelines) but if a character in DC were to say "another dimension" you'd also understand that to typically mean another Earth/timeline permitted the context.

I'm saying the context Okada provides typically uses the term "world" to refer to another Earth (hence why I find your interpretation so weird, saying worlds > universe - side note, bet you'd never agree to Saga being able to shake timelines with Galaxian Explosion, and instead interpret world to mean planet), and dimension to be referring to the timeline holistically.

To summarise if that's too clogged up, parallel world/world/worlds typically Earth from another timeline, dimension, refers to the timeline in a more general sense. They are synonymous in their referral to another timeline, not in their specific reference to what attribute of the timeline. and we see this as evident throughout the series as I've shown above with Shura constantly flipping between the two and Aiolos connecting dimensions such as lost world and GA world yet calling them worlds and dimensions interchangeably.

Where did Alice mention universe? I only see time, world, and dimension on that page.

I don't think that's the case (world referring to the Earth), Shura's dialogue clearly frames world as something of a universal scale. Dohko even says that before this alternate universe plot, he thought the world was all of existence.

This seems to be further support the idea that world>universe (until the multiverse was introduced). My interpretation is what Shura himself puts on the table by wording it how he did, as does Dohko with the order, where he's clearly escalating the scale by ending it with multiverse. Yeah, order doesn't matter when using synonymous terms, but it does when describing the scale of something.

I have no horse in that race.

And please stop telling people the verse already has an accepted 2-A cosmology, it's misinformation. The anime and manga were split - in case you missed that section of the CRT we spent 5 pages arguing over nothing - neither of which have any currently accepted cosmology.

Wait, I thought the quote from GR of infinitely existing multi dimensional universes kept the manga cosmology at 2-A. Did it not?

 

[Hasty12345]

Where did Alice mention universe? I only see time, world, and dimension on that page.

that's my bad, I did mean dimension as that's what was on the Zeus panel as well.

Wait, I thought the quote from GR of infinitely existing multi dimensional universes kept the manga cosmology at 2-A. Did it not?

not saying it doesn't, GR, Sho, DW and LC all support at least a 2-A rating but the point of this CRT is to actually have that be accepted on the wiki

By saying "it's already accepted" you are telling people this blog is unneeded when in actuality, we have no accepted anything for either continuities.

In-fact the only thing accepted you went out of your way to try and have reversed... so the verse is virtually a clean slate.

the end product of this CRT is an accepted verse cosmology blog, even if that means the blog in the CRT needs altering.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I see. So then thinking about it, what even was the point of this discussion, if for either conclusion it doesn't take the multiverse beyond 2-A, because I never had any issue with a 2-A rating.

 

[Hasty12345]

I see. So then thinking about it, what even was the point of this discussion, if for either conclusion it doesn't take the multiverse beyond 2-A, because I never had any issue with a 2-A rating.

the specific structure of the universe is important to the cosmology, we don't ignore the structure of U7 because with the other 12 universes it would be "2-C anyway"

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

the specific structure of the universe is important to the cosmology, we don't ignore the structure of U7 because with the other 12 universes it would be "2-C anyway"

? I didn't say anything about ignoring anything, I just thought this thread is specifically about the rating of the entire multiverse (see the if Low 1-A is rejected section of OP), but if it's about everything, then cool.

 

[Jaakor48]

2A sounds good, I don't think the mods have an issue with that

 

[Danny33wise]

Bump

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Could a staff member close this? I'm going to redo this without the Higher Dimension stuff.

 

[Firestorm808]

Could a staff member close this? I'm going to redo this without the Higher Dimension stuff.

Closed per request.