- 2,490
- 229
I feel like this thread is getting a bit high in sarcasm and passive aggressiveness. I'd like to take the time to thank Matt for linking Reddit since it leaves me with one less click to get there 
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Ryougi Shiki Tier
- Thread starter Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)
- Start date
- Status
- 15,614
- 7,054
Wow, reeeeaaally matuuuuure, Ryuuuuuuuu.Ryukama said:
I tooooootally agreeeeee.
- 2,485
- 309
Bringing it back to Shiki, I don't get why she's rated at Tier 1. The only statements that support it come from her, and she's not exactly an unbiased source and is hinted to have been bragging a bit for someone who by WoG can only match Servants in a defensive fight. Her origin can be explained here: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...E-OP-FOR-ANSWERS)/page909?p=560338#post560338 and nothing it says shows that she deserves that tier.
- 11,531
- 8,017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgCjfRtM1NkAzathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
- 1,096
- 94
To clarify I do agree Akasha shouldn't have a profile. But one, my question above was a genuine question since I wanted to know the standard so using two buildings as an example was a bit uh.. ??? and secondly, if places can't have profiles merely because they don't do anything then why do weapons? Without a wielder they themselves are nothing. Nor will they do anything.
No, the reason because a place exists is because the identity exists, a place is a place because there is a living being to observe it. The affirmation that beings make, characterise everything around itself. Even weapons, are identified by the surrounding. This akasha, is a placement but also a force beyond the observed dimensions. In other words, actual sentience in higher-dimensions. Is not determinable by such humanistic reasonings such as yours.
But it can also seen on the opposite but yet the same, the identity exists because the place exists. I am here because Everything is.
These forces, can alternatively be called the places of events. But what happens if you erase this Akasha from existence? The observed-nasu verse goes away along with it.
I say, it's important to include her in some blog, or article. If the staff or website disagrees just because those other reasonings they brought, then i dont care for now.
No, the reason because a place exists is because the identity exists, a place is a place because there is a living being to observe it. The affirmation that beings make, characterise everything around itself. Even weapons, are identified by the surrounding. This akasha, is a placement but also a force beyond the observed dimensions. In other words, actual sentience in higher-dimensions. Is not determinable by such humanistic reasonings such as yours.
But it can also seen on the opposite but yet the same, the identity exists because the place exists. I am here because Everything is.
These forces, can alternatively be called the places of events. But what happens if you erase this Akasha from existence? The observed-nasu verse goes away along with it.
I say, it's important to include her in some blog, or article. If the staff or website disagrees just because those other reasonings they brought, then i dont care for now.
- 2,490
- 229
@Prospect
I think you focused on the wrong part of that bit m8.
I think you focused on the wrong part of that bit m8.
- 1,915
- 119
@Aizen Weapons are fine because some have abilities unique to them. Some swords can shoot beams. Some boost the user's stats. Some spears leave wounds that don't heal, or act like homing missiles when thrown. Some knives are so sharp that they cut mountains in half even when swung by a normal human that wasn't even trying to cut anything. And some gauntlets can kill and then revive 50% of the universe if you put some stones in it.
Akasha though? Akasha doesn't do anything. It's a place. It exists. You can't throw Akasha at someone, you can't cut someone with it, you can't point it at someone and fire a beam... Nothing. Much like the White House and Buckingham Palace, it's just a place. An important place that a lot of people want to "reach", for various reasons, and you may or may not get some really neat benefits depending on how you reach it, but in and of itself it doesn't do anything.
@ProspectX I've been wondering this for a while, but do you actually know anything about the Nasuverse? Or are you just basing your arguments on your personal views of higher dimensional beings in general?
Akasha though? Akasha doesn't do anything. It's a place. It exists. You can't throw Akasha at someone, you can't cut someone with it, you can't point it at someone and fire a beam... Nothing. Much like the White House and Buckingham Palace, it's just a place. An important place that a lot of people want to "reach", for various reasons, and you may or may not get some really neat benefits depending on how you reach it, but in and of itself it doesn't do anything.
@ProspectX I've been wondering this for a while, but do you actually know anything about the Nasuverse? Or are you just basing your arguments on your personal views of higher dimensional beings in general?
- 1,096
- 94
You can't throw Akasha at someone, you can't cut someone with it, you can't point it at someone and fire a beam... Nothing. Much like the White House and Buckingham Palace, it's just a place.
1. No, again you're too reluctant. You honestly think that, a higher-dimensional construct can be characterised by such humanstic objectivism?, and secondly this site is generally not for the purpose of vs battles. It's not about use, so to put it simple for even you, what you guys may call "useful", or characteriscs. Have a more than countably infinitely greater of value in both, nature and behavior itself, in these higher-layered worlds than in this one. Everything presented in the nasuverse, is put as mathematical metaphors, that do confirm their higher-dimensional essence but not...how they actually behave. That is, how a real higher-dimensional being would.
2. It's not a personal view, and, i am well aware of the nasuverse.
1. No, again you're too reluctant. You honestly think that, a higher-dimensional construct can be characterised by such humanstic objectivism?, and secondly this site is generally not for the purpose of vs battles. It's not about use, so to put it simple for even you, what you guys may call "useful", or characteriscs. Have a more than countably infinitely greater of value in both, nature and behavior itself, in these higher-layered worlds than in this one. Everything presented in the nasuverse, is put as mathematical metaphors, that do confirm their higher-dimensional essence but not...how they actually behave. That is, how a real higher-dimensional being would.
2. It's not a personal view, and, i am well aware of the nasuverse.
- 1,092
- 919
Damn this has gotten out of hand. Let me summarize it like this:
1. Akasha is not a person, it's a place, the source of all things and as well as the archive of all events past, present, and future, existing outside all of time. It's called the "Akashic Records" for a reason you know. Show proof of Akasha being an actual entity and be the source of the root itself while being it. Because unlike Akasha, the Creator (Umineko) has been proven to be an actual being and not a place. It's like making a profile of Nirvana when it's just a heightened state of awareness.
2. You do not need to be in a verse with an infinite-dimensional multiverse to be 1-A. Case in point, Tenchi Muyo (22-D) has four (potentially five) 1-As and a Tier 0 and there's composite heirarchies like Umineko. Besides, even if you're above High 1-B structure, you're still High 1-B. Case in point, the Living Tribunal.
3. Even if Akasha was 1-A. Void Shiki wouldn't be. First of all she still has a human body and second, we do not scale avatars to the full power of whatever they are an avatar of. Otherwise we'd have High 1-A Randolph Carter and go back to having a Tier 0 Tenchi Masaki.
4. Manaka has the a connection to the root also. Yet unless you're a certain someone from Powerlisting you shouldn't think Shiki's connection is any different based simply on what the wiki says.
5. On that note, please don't talk about the Type-Moon wiki. If someone talks about us being "full of crap" or whatever we'd flip our shit. Be cool.
6. Transcending physics =/= 1-A. Transcending theories on dimensions is too vague without proper explanation to = 1-A. Transcending the concepts of physics = 1-A it includes all concepts of physics (space, time, dimensions, etc.)
7. Weapons are used by characters, can have their own sets of abilities, etc. This is not even an argument whether or not they need profiles...
8. @Prospect you're kinda gauging things a bit too realistically (or should I say philosophically), in fiction things are not so blurred. We have Tier 0s showing personalities when in theology that is impossible. It's make believe after all.
1. Akasha is not a person, it's a place, the source of all things and as well as the archive of all events past, present, and future, existing outside all of time. It's called the "Akashic Records" for a reason you know. Show proof of Akasha being an actual entity and be the source of the root itself while being it. Because unlike Akasha, the Creator (Umineko) has been proven to be an actual being and not a place. It's like making a profile of Nirvana when it's just a heightened state of awareness.
2. You do not need to be in a verse with an infinite-dimensional multiverse to be 1-A. Case in point, Tenchi Muyo (22-D) has four (potentially five) 1-As and a Tier 0 and there's composite heirarchies like Umineko. Besides, even if you're above High 1-B structure, you're still High 1-B. Case in point, the Living Tribunal.
3. Even if Akasha was 1-A. Void Shiki wouldn't be. First of all she still has a human body and second, we do not scale avatars to the full power of whatever they are an avatar of. Otherwise we'd have High 1-A Randolph Carter and go back to having a Tier 0 Tenchi Masaki.
4. Manaka has the a connection to the root also. Yet unless you're a certain someone from Powerlisting you shouldn't think Shiki's connection is any different based simply on what the wiki says.
5. On that note, please don't talk about the Type-Moon wiki. If someone talks about us being "full of crap" or whatever we'd flip our shit. Be cool.
6. Transcending physics =/= 1-A. Transcending theories on dimensions is too vague without proper explanation to = 1-A. Transcending the concepts of physics = 1-A it includes all concepts of physics (space, time, dimensions, etc.)
7. Weapons are used by characters, can have their own sets of abilities, etc. This is not even an argument whether or not they need profiles...
8. @Prospect you're kinda gauging things a bit too realistically (or should I say philosophically), in fiction things are not so blurred. We have Tier 0s showing personalities when in theology that is impossible. It's make believe after all.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Ven
Nice to see you again.
But the main problem with "Shiki =/= full Akasha" is because of the fact that she's repeatedly been referred to as an "omnipotent wish-granting machine" due to her connection to it. She flat out states that she can obliterate the current reality and replace it with a new one she desires.
Manaka has a connection to the Root, but she doesn't have anywhere near the statements that Shiki does.
I don't agree with 1-A Akasha, but as its extension, Shiki should be comparable to it.
Nice to see you again.
But the main problem with "Shiki =/= full Akasha" is because of the fact that she's repeatedly been referred to as an "omnipotent wish-granting machine" due to her connection to it. She flat out states that she can obliterate the current reality and replace it with a new one she desires.
Manaka has a connection to the Root, but she doesn't have anywhere near the statements that Shiki does.
I don't agree with 1-A Akasha, but as its extension, Shiki should be comparable to it.
- 1,565
- 197
IIRC It was agreed that Void Shiki = Akasha in this thread.
Comparing Manaka's conection to Shiki's conection is quite awful. Manaka has only shown that thanks to that conection she is a grade A or even better mage. Aside that...nothing. Like Reppu said, she doesn't have anywhere near the statements, in fact...she doesn't have more than 1 to begin with.
I'm with Reppu here, i also don't agree with 1-A Akasha.
Comparing Manaka's conection to Shiki's conection is quite awful. Manaka has only shown that thanks to that conection she is a grade A or even better mage. Aside that...nothing. Like Reppu said, she doesn't have anywhere near the statements, in fact...she doesn't have more than 1 to begin with.
I'm with Reppu here, i also don't agree with 1-A Akasha.
- 1,092
- 919
@Reppu and Kami Yasha
Fair point, guys. I agree in that case.
Fair point, guys. I agree in that case.
- 2,485
- 309
Why take Shiki at her word for her capabilities when she could be merely boasting? It's not like she did anything with that power in her fights and per WoG can't do much to Servants offensively, which seems strange to say if she's this 'omnipotent wish granting machine'. I mean, did you really think about whether the upgrade was justified or not?
- 2,355
- 270
Taking that WoG seriously would be sad.
- 2,485
- 309
I don't see why, considering that it matches up with how she's portrayed in the story and how Servants on average are beings unmatched by most people in the current era.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Regis
You of all people should know that Servants are fodder next to Akasha.
Void Shiki is so powerful that the Holy Grail is laughable to her. It makes 0 sense as to why someone who can obliterate all of reality and replace it with a new one would lose to a Servant.
You of all people should know that Servants are fodder next to Akasha.
Void Shiki is so powerful that the Holy Grail is laughable to her. It makes 0 sense as to why someone who can obliterate all of reality and replace it with a new one would lose to a Servant.
- 2,485
- 309
@Repp, that's blatantly false considering that Nasu of all people, the one who made the character, considers her to be on the same tier as Hero Kotomine and Ciel, people who in specific situations can hurt and kill Servants but would normally get destroyed in a fight with the average Servant. You still haven't shown anything that suggests that Void Shiki = Akasha in terms of power.
- 10,394
- 3,348
You're arguing author intent, Regis.
- 2,485
- 309
I'm arguing that we take what the author wrote and spoke about over what we think should happen, considering that it is his work and he knows a lot more about it than we do, especially since we have to rely on translations and such which can vary in quality.
- 11,444
- 1,997
- 2,485
- 309
She never shows that she's far superior to it though, so I don't get why you're rating her as equal to Akasha (and through that Arc > Akasha).
- 1,915
- 119
Are we still pretending that Akasha is a character or that Void Shiki is Akasha?
The page should really just be deleted.
The page should really just be deleted.
- 2,485
- 309
I mean I personally think that Akasha should just be listed in a blog or on the verse page as it's not a character like our other Tier 1 profiles. I also feel that Shiki's being wanked a bit due to her connection with Akasha/the Void even though Nasu has stated that she can't do anything meaningful to a Servant in a fight (save for the super weak ones).
- 1,915
- 119
Explaining what Akasha is and why its important in a blog or something is perfectly fine, but letting it have a profile, with a tier, stats, and all of that stuff? Absolutely not.
- 1,499
- 259
The excerpt in question is from Cokesakto no? That alone is enough reason to not take it seriously topkek
- 1,915
- 119
This is actually true thoughFabtastic Glasses said:
- 2,485
- 309
So what happens now?
- 1,499
- 259
Depends on what you want to stick with. With Cokesakto's TL she might keep her current rating. Without Cokesakto's TL then she probably will lost it
- 2,485
- 309
Considering that Coke's TL is pretty unreliable and other experienced TLs think of Shiki's statement as fancy words when looking at the overall context, I don't see her keeping her current rating.
- 1,915
- 119
I'm gonna be honest here, i couldn't care less about Void Shiki's tier. I just want Akasha's page deleted. Not only is it a place and thus shouldn't have a profile to begin with, it's made redundant by the Void Shiki key in Shiki's profile.
- 2,485
- 309
So is anyone going to reply or is this just going to be silently forgotten so that nothing happens?
- 336
- 10
too busy at school in real life so I'm just spectationg/read threads for a while
- 1,915
- 119
I'm currently letting this go because i want to focus on Setsubun, but if this is still being ignored when that's done i'm going straight to the profile deletion request thread.RegisNex1232 said:
- 1,499
- 259
Someone is proposing to make Void Shiki to 1-A which is seemingly not accepted. But then disagreement. Then someone (me) pointing out that the translated excerpt from the novel that gives Shiki her 1-C rating is really just fanfic tier evidence due to loltranslation
So the original intend of the thread has been addressed, i guess. Shiki isn't going to get 1-A. But there's also the possibility that this thread would end up downgrading her too
So the original intend of the thread has been addressed, i guess. Shiki isn't going to get 1-A. But there's also the possibility that this thread would end up downgrading her too
- 1,915
- 119
There's also someone (me) who wants Akasha's profile to be deleted because Akasha is a place and places shouldn't have profiles, but apparently that's being ignored. Though that applies to the entire thread at this point.
- 2,485
- 309
I'm with Fab and NEH in that Shiki shouldn't get 1-A for her Void personality, and that Akasha/the Root should be relegated to a blog post or note on the verse page instead of having a page as if it's a character. But it seems that everyone else has either forgotten or is just ignoring the thread at this point.
- 12
- 0
Six dimensions? Isn't when Rin using Jewel Sword she pretty much drain the entire magical energy from the area? On order to use more attack she need to pull from other dimension. She can't pull magical energy from the exact same dimension. I'm pretty sure she swings more than 6 times.Aizenishere said:
- Status
