RWBY - Immaterial Non-Physical Interaction Review

[Jinx666]

Also the Geist is NOT a ghost period.

It is based off a ghost, and shares its floating/possession like features. But it is Grimm, made from the same stuff as every other Grimm.

 

[Firestorm808]

Alright.

So.

Harriet punched the mask. Ruby hit the mask. The fishing rod grabbed the mask. Their mask is visible when they are possessing something, and as such is a clear weakness.

No NPI, the mask is just their weakness.

And no one has actually killed or fought a Chill beyond “special tools to get it out/save someone.”

So it’s looking like only Elemental Non-Physical Interaction, with a no to any other kind.

From what I have seen fo far, this seems to be the case.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From what I have seen fo far, this seems to be the case.

It is not the case no, i will respond to your post in a few minutes

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, Jinx has been doing that literally the entire thread

And you should be trying to do better, right?

As I said, it should just stop from now on.

@Jinx666 Stop responding to Weekly unless it has something specifically to do with arguing the evidence.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I dont call anyone a child over RWBY arguments lol

Its different when one of you has actively admitting you're just trying to get the high-end for RWBY and you liking a post in agreement

Cease. Responding.

Just take a step back and chill for a bit. No more back and forth, please.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And you should be trying to do better, right?

As I said, it should just stop from now on.

@Jinx666 Stop responding to Weekly unless it has something specifically to do with arguing the evidence.

I am yes, would just have appreciated a call for Jinx to stop before we got to this point is all :/

I'll stop if she stops, im trying to get a response to Fire's stuff written up and she just keeps spamming nonsense

 

[Jinx666]

From what I have seen fo far, this seems to be the case.

The mask does definitely seem like a weakness, with Clover forcibly being able to drag the Geist out by it and iit only ever been shown hit at to kill it.

Its not the only bone-plating the Geist has, and has tried to physically attack with its claws, but yeah, either way if the main body's intangible then its clearly not NPI. I had this in mind but the mask was never specifically stated a weakspot so didn't think to use it

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I am yes, would just have appreciated a call for Jinx to stop before we got to this point is all :/

You stop too. Enough backhanded comments trying to take shots at Jinx while talking to others.

Both of you need to chill out. I don’t care who started it.

 

[Jinx666]

Sorry for responding to them but yeah, I dont think Fire is JUST talking to one of us here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Sorry for responding to them but yeah, I dont think Fire is JUST talking to one of us here.

I mean he literally asked me to respond to his post, which ive been trying to do for the past 15 minutes

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Moving on.

We will wait for Weekly to respond to Fire.

 

[Maitreya12]

This thread is pretty toxic ngl

A lot of insults, accusations, and petty comments have been thrown around a lot and some of the arguments have gotten pretty heated. I would kindly ask for you all who are engaging in those type of arguments to tone it down since they’re pretty needless in the discussion and only serve to anger and clog up with the thread more than it needs to be.

From my perspective while I do understand and can agree to some of what Jinx’s contentions are, I think Weekly has provided some good evidence such as the writer commentaries directly calling the Geist “a ghost” and such, for at least a ‘possibly rating’ for some characters like Damage mentioned to be applied unless some of the contentions Firestorm brought up in relation to the Geist’s mask haven’t been answered.

 

[Jinx666]

From my perspective while I do understand and can agree to some of what Jinx’s contentions are, I think Weekly has provided some good evidence such as the writer commentaries directly calling the Geist “a ghost”

The Geist is a creature of Grimm

We dont know what 'Ghosts' are in RWBY (Ig except Ozpins entire soul existence?), but its not the sense as in the Geist is a dead soul/on another plane etc.
Its merely based on a ghost, specifically a Poltergeist but it genuinely has no other lore behind it suggesting its a real ghost as opposed to every other creature of grimm not also being ghosts. It resides on the same world of Remnant (A world with no general magic aside from Maidens, Salem and Oz) and has no history behind it

Ghosts also would not likely lack souls. Its not viable to call it Immaterial intangibility because its purely just based on a ghost. Beowolves and other Grimm creatures aren't their actual species' counterparts either.

Ghost is just an obvious way to describe it as thats the whole inspiration behind the theme, but its really not a true ghost. Much like how easy it is to describe it as intangible, but not mean it in an exact way you'd assume a ghost would

 

[Maitreya12]

The Geist is a creature of Grimm

We dont know what 'Ghosts' are in RWBY, but its not the sense as in the Geist is a dead soul/on another plane etc.
Its merely based on a ghost, specifically a Poltergeist but it genuinely has no other lore behind it suggesting its a real ghost as opposed to every other creature of grimm not also being ghosts.

Ghosts also would not likely lack souls. Its not viable to call it Immaterial intangibility because its purely just based on a ghost. Beowolves and other Grimm creatures aren't their actual species' counterparts either

The writer’s know what ghosts are though, and they use their own respective knowledge of ghosts to compare them to the Geists to give an idea of what they are to the audience. So them comparing the Grimm to ghosts can help to establish Weekly’s point of them being intangible since the direct comparison to Ghosts by writers help further establish and clarify the ‘intangibility’ statement made about the Grimm as we can differ to the writer’s view of what the Geist is like to have an idea on what kind of intangibility we’re talking about here.

 

[Jinx666]

The writer’s know what ghosts are though, and they use their own respective knowledge of ghosts to compare them to the Geists to give an idea of what they are to the audience. So them comparing the Grimm to ghosts can help to establish Weekly’s point of them being intangible since the direct comparison to Ghosts by writers help further establish and clarify the ‘intangibility’ statement made about the Grimm as we can differ to the writer’s view of what the Geist is like to have an idea on what kind of intangibility we’re talking about here.

Comparing a Ghost for inspiration of design =/= Being an actual ghost.

The only Grimm made like a ghost is the Geist, with maybe also the Chill despite its incorporeality possibly suggesting eldritch inspiration

I'm not sure how them merely describing it as a ghost is sufficient evidence to say its intangibility will work like a mainstream ghost either. Ghosts work different in fiction to one another.

Its a creature of Grimm, created from the black pools as every other. It isn't a real ghost.

If the Geist has intangibility like a general ghost, they need to show more examples of it than it being exclusive to possessing stuff. But we have never got stuff like that

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Comparing a Ghost for inspiration of design =/= Being an actual ghost.

The only Grimm made like a ghost is the Geist, with maybe also the Chill.

I'm not sure how them merely describing it as a ghost is sufficient evidence to say its intangibility will work like a mainstream ghost either. Ghosts work different in fiction to one another.

Its a creature of Grimm, created from the black pools as every other. It isn't a real ghost

Jinx, your hyperfixation on the idea that immaterial intangibility is exclusive to ghosts and that nothing else that exiss could possibly have immaterial intangibility makes zero sense. Immaterial intangibility just means there is no physical body.

The Chill is a creature of Grimm too and its a living incorporeal shadow.

 

[Jinx666]

Jinx, your hyperfixation on the idea that immaterial intangibility is exclusive to ghosts and that nothing else that exiss could possibly have immaterial intangibility makes zero sense. Immaterial intangibility just means there is no physical body.

The Chill is a creature of Grimm too and its a living incorporeal shadow.

Respond to Fire not me, this isnt directed to you. Unless you genuinely have evidence to say theres no 'physical body' of a Geist than just the word 'Intangible' to exactly pinpoint how its intangibility works (When the show contradicts this by having it physically hit with no mention prior that they can hit non-physical beings as a general aura power). This is an assumption otherwise

 

[Maitreya12]

Comparing a Ghost for inspiration of design =/= Being an actual ghost.

The only Grimm made like a ghost is the Geist, with maybe also the Chill despite its incorporeality possibly suggesting eldritch inspiration

I'm not sure how them merely describing it as a ghost is sufficient evidence to say its intangibility will work like a mainstream ghost either. Ghosts work different in fiction to one another.

Its a creature of Grimm, created from the black pools as every other. It isn't a real ghost.

If the Geist has intangibility like a general ghost, they need to show more examples of it than it being exclusive to possessing stuff. But we have never got stuff like that

I’m not saying it’s a real ghost, I’m saying it’s ‘Ghost-like.’ And I think the writer’s comments help confirm that fact.

I get the intangibility portion from the direct statement calling the Geist intangible, the connotation to a ghost helps establish what kind of intangibility that is

Ghosts can work different to each other but I think we all have a generalized idea of what ‘Ghost-like intangibility’ would entail. Like if I say “I’m intangible like a ghost” I think it’s pretty easy to discern what kind of intangibility is being referenced if we take the statement at face value.

So I think the Geist’s showings of possession on objects, it’s statement of being intangible, and it’s direct connotation to a ghost by a writer provide reasonable and sufficient grounds to make the claim Weekly is citing.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Jinx, your hyperfixation on the idea that immaterial intangibility is exclusive to ghosts and that nothing else that exiss could possibly have immaterial intangibility makes zero sense. Immaterial intangibility just means there is no physical body.

The Chill is a creature of Grimm too and its a living incorporeal shadow.

This right here is the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

Calling it a hyperfixation is an insult, Weekly. Stop doing this. None of what you said in this post was actually helpful to the overall discussion, it was just insulting Jinx.

Just respond to Fire.

The writer’s know what ghosts are though, and they use their own respective knowledge of ghosts to compare them to the Geists to give an idea of what they are to the audience. So them comparing the Grimm to ghosts can help to establish Weekly’s point of them being intangible since the direct comparison to Ghosts by writers help further establish and clarify the ‘intangibility’ statement made about the Grimm as we can differ to the writer’s view of what the Geist is like to have an idea on what kind of intangibility we’re talking about here.

Ghost inspiration or being compared to ghosts is pretty irrelevant when the current argument is their Mask weakness. We see their phasing and possession ability, and that is clearly ghost inspired, but even the simple basis of “ghost” is not present for a Grimm.

Ghosts are disembodied souls. Grimm are physical beings that do not have souls. A discrepancy is formed.

The only source of intangibility that is relevant is “they are intangible” from the guidebook, and phasing into objects for possession. Those are the only showings or statements that matter.

Their mask, however, is the point of contention. As claiming the whole cast has NPI for hitting a spot on their body that seems selectively intangible is suspicious.

I’m not saying it’s a real ghost, I’m saying it’s ‘Ghost-like.’ And I think the writer’s comments help confirm that fact.

I get the intangibility portion from the direct statement calling the Geist intangible, the connotation to a ghost helps establish what kind of intangibility that is

Ghosts can work different to each other but I think we all have a generalized idea of what ‘Ghost-like intangibility’ would entail. Like if I say “I’m intangible like a ghost” I think it’s pretty easy to discern what kind of intangibility is being referenced if we take the statement at face value.

So I think the Geist’s showings of possession on objects, it’s statement of being intangible, and it’s direct connotation to a ghost by a writer provide reasonable and sufficient grounds to make the claim Weekly is citing.

“Ghost-like” is far too vague and unimportant. They will keep intangibility from the statement and showings, not because of a comparison that relies on interpretation.

 

[Jinx666]

I’m not saying it’s a real ghost, I’m saying it’s ‘Ghost-like.’ And I think the writer’s comments help confirm that fact.

I get the intangibility portion from the direct statement calling the Geist intangible, the connotation to a ghost helps establish what kind of intangibility that is

Ghosts can work different to each other but I think we all have a generalized idea of what ‘Ghost-like intangibility’ would entail. Like if I say “I’m intangible like a ghost” I think it’s pretty easy to discern what kind of intangibility is being referenced if we take the statement at face value.

So I think the Geist’s showings of possession on objects, it’s statement of being intangible, and it’s direct connotation to a ghost by a writer provide reasonable and sufficient grounds to make the claim Weekly is citing.

Being ghost-like does not make it a complete case.

If the writers wanted to show this level of intangibility, they could easily incorporate it into the show instead of offhandedly describing it in a guidebook, then immediately focus on its possession power.

The Geists intangibility so far has been exclusive to its possession. Im not denying it doesnt have intangibility in some degree, but its not clear in the way that Weekly is trying to affirm as fact
It's based off a ghost. Unless its physically shown, we dont get to assume it has every mainstream power and existence a ghost has, and ergo it doesn't mean we get to guess on how it works until it properly shows it.

Its just wrong if Weekly's genuine only point in thinking the ghost is immaterial JUST because its based on a ghost (Despite having the same exact origin as every other Grimm), then no, thats not evidence, it is once again assumption. Its even worse when Weekly is saying the Geist hasnt got phasing intangibility, which it would need if it wants to avoid physical attacks to any capacity like an 'immaterial' ghost.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Alrighty, apologies for the wait

As per site rules, outside statements cannot contradict the source material.

• Primary Source
  • V3 - Mercury kick Ruby out of her semblance state
  • V4 - Ruby kills a Geist with her rifle, shooting it in the mask
  • V7 - Clover physically grapples a Geist mask with his fishing line and Harriet one-punches the Geist mask.

Correct

• V8 - According to Penny, Ruby's Semblance is the following:
  • "Ruby is capable of traveling at an extreme velocity from one point to another by breaking herself down to her molecular components, thus negating her mass and then reassembling them at the destination, theoretically making it possible for her to transport all of us in the same way, as mass no longer matters."
  • Classifies as Elemental Intangibility - The ability to become intangible by transforming into a substance, such as wind, fire, or water, making it so that most attacks merely disperse them instead of truly damaging them, allowing them to regenerate. However, this would still leave the user vulnerable to many forms of attack, such as sufficiently powerful energy or elemental attacks.

Correct, theres also some stuff in the supplementary books and even in the show itself, stuff like her splitting into multiple clouds of molecules and petals to disperse around attacks and obstacles, but thats beside the point. I can grab instances of this is you'd like though.

• Guide - Geists are stated in the guidebook to be intangible.
  • Presumably Immaterial Intangibility - This type of intangibility allows the user to phase through most attacks due to not being made up of a physical substance, such as ghosts or characters who merely exist as a disembodied soul. It also includes characters that are made up of things like energy. Of course, this intangibility type still has its own weaknesses - a soul is vulnerable to soul manipulation, for example.

Correct, and theres also the writer's commentary for the show where they talk about it being a ghost

Volume 4 commentary transcript:

"Kerry: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Um, so. So yeah when we're, we first came up with different types of Grimm we were just kinda brainstorming like what could be out there. And um, we wanted to have y'know t-this type of Grimm that could possess other things because we wanted to have, y'know a rock monster. Uh, not a rock lobster but a rock monster. (Gray laughs) Um, sorry made me think of it. And (Gray laughs) we, we were trying to justify like y'know, know we want the Grimm to be... y'know, more or-organic or more, um, little bit more like easily understandable. So we thought well, what about a ghost Grimm? I think that was one of the first things that came up and we talked about doing a poltergeist which turned into, because we're clever, Geist. Um, we're not clever, that was a joke. (Chuckling, possibly from Kowan) Um, so y'know one of the original things we're talking about is, is while uh, Monty's working on the White Trailer we're trying to figure out... why... 'cause the initial idea was just like she's fighting a suit of armour because she is (Gray: 'Cause it is cool) 'Cause it's cool, (Gray chuckles) she's Snow White, she's in a castle like, not the White Castle, but she's in a castle. Uh, like this would be cool and then, y'know, like many ideas it's like "Alright well here is the end result, how do we get there?" And we talked about yeah, the idea that a Geist is a type of Grimm that can possess different things. So, we start coming with different terminology. This was uh, a Petra Gigas, uh the, the Armored Knight was an Arma Gigas, um I think we had some others (Miles: There's a few others) but y'know (Miles is difficult to hear) that's for later. - 11mins, 36secs in. "

• Novel - Chills are stated in the lore to be incorporeal, and huntsmen have killed them before.
  • Incorporeality - Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A incorporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them.

Correct, they are effectively living shadows, and its basically a reverse Geist, it possesses living beings instead of innate matter. Also of note, the same scan i posted for the Chills has Ozpin recounting how he has met with numerous huntsmen who have encountered and killed Chills. The only thing the specialized huntsmen and tools do is save the person possessed by the Chill from dying when it leaves their body.

• Novel - RWBY: Before the Dawn - Rosa Schwein has a semblance that is the following:
  • Turns her blurry, allowing bullets to go through her.
  • It is described as brief phasing.
  • Considered Phasing Intangibility

Correct

• Outside Statements
  • Eddy Rivas (co-writer) - There are specialized huntsman/tools used to remove The Chill (RWBY: Fairy Tales of Remnant Novel)

Correct

Based on the above, please answer the following questions:

• Is the Geist Mask physical and the only way to physically harm/touch it? Has the black ghostly body been interacted with before? From what I have seen, the mask does not pass through objects.

It has yes, in the White Trailer Weiss burned the ghost bodies of the Geists that were possessing the Arma Gigas without actively hitting the masks, same with the depiction of the fight in Ice Queendom.


Of note, the Arma Gigas is multiple geists possessing one body, so even if she hit one mask, she wouldnt have killed the Arma Gigas in the way that she did, and as shown by the fight between RNJR and the Petra Gigas, destroying the Geist's possessed body doesnt normally kill them, so in that fight she destroyed both the possessed body and he Geist's intangible bodies.

• Are geist limbs able to physically interact with objects or people by choice?

Aside from using them to possess matter, no

• Is it explicit that dust gives bullets NPI properties?

It is not, no

• Would a non-dust bullet hit a Geist anywhere on its body, even its mask?

Ye, Blake shot a Geist multiple times with non-Dust bullets without hitting its mask

• Is there a visual cue that a weapon is channeling aura?

Yes, while Aura is an invisible energy most of the time, all weapons channel Aura, which is seen when the characters take heavy hits.

Spoiler

Covering Tyrian's arm blades

Covering Mercury's prosthetic legs

Covering Harriet's gauntlets

Covering Maria's scythes

Covering Nora's grenade launcher

Covering Jaune's sword and shield

From the show's clips, the only interactions seem to be with the masks themselves, not the ghostly body. Bullets shoot the mask. Wire pulls mask. Fist punches mask.

Theres the instance of Clover attempting to hook the Geists' body with his hook but missing due to Qrow's semblance (implying that he would have been able to hook its intangible body if not for Qrow's passive bad luck) as well as Blake shooting the Geist in the body several times beforehand.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ghosts are disembodied souls. Grimm are physical beings that do not have souls. A discrepancy is formed.

I mean, the Chill is literally a living shadow, and the Nightmare was fought by Team RWBY in a dreamscape, its a bit disingenuous to claim that all Grimm are strictly physical beings

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This right here is the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

Calling it a hyperfixation is an insult, Weekly. Stop doing this. None of what you said in this post was actually helpful to the overall discussion, it was just insulting Jinx.

Just respond to Fire.

Apologies, just frustrated is all

 

[Spinoirr]

Essentially:

One source, secondary to the show, says Geist are intangible, with no details other than that. Literally just “they are intangible” with no explanation as to how.

Everyone in the entire verse beats the shit out of Geist as if they are not intangible.

Thus there are two options. Either the entire cast has NPI or the Geist can be selectively intangible.

Neither of these are proven, shown or implied in the show or extra material, so it is pure speculation either way.

Hense why possibly NPI is good

 

[Jinx666]

Elemental Intangibility is still physical. It doesnt equate to NPI, even in the way you are describing the Grimm. Molecules are still physical and Ruby has to actively split her body in her petal form to dodge solid objects (I can prove this for anyone who needs proof, im assuming everyone with RWBY knowledge here knows this though). Her molecules are still localised despite separate, and there is still a mass/force to her attacks, which goes against the whole basis of non-physical

Commentary transcript says 'Ghost Grimm' while they were thinking of the design process. Same way a Beowolf would be a 'wolf grimm' or a Goliath would be an 'elephant Grimm', but still not be actual members of the species. They aren't ghosts and they're still made from the same material as other Grimm, so trying to use this to exclusively say they're immune to physical attacks (never shown) isn't it.

Blake missed. She was panicked, just shooting around with no confirmations the bullet hit the Geist whatsoever. It was dark (despite how shes supposed to have night-vision but RWBY forgets that all the time), she was taken by surprise and we dont actually see the bullets interact with the body. The Geist also tries to physically attack her using its claws (likely made from the same bone-material as its mask even if the main body is intangible), showing it can still physically interact with things. If its only a one-sided relationship, that should be proven directly instead of brushed off

Qrow and Clover's semblances cancel eachother out. In this scenario its foggy to say Qrow's bad luck was what made Clover miss his fishing rod. He was generally trying to catch the Geist physically, but this still doesn't mean they have NPI since its still very possible their main bodies arent always 100% intangible. The geist didnt think to go through walls or literally noclip to avoid getting hit after all. It chose to possess disembodied rocks. It could very well have been Qrow's semblance but either way it doesn't mean the Geist is intangible

We don't know how Chill interaction works and should stop talking about it even though its described as specialized. Maybe these specialized huntsmen have NPI for 1 specific type of Grimm, but until they're introduced in the show, theyre a made up character trying to be scaled to.

 

[Jinx666]

Hense why possibly NPI is good

Or we just don't need to keep adding powers we aren't sure about and have to draw from thinly linked assumptions instead of concrete fact. As long as people arent going to be saying RWBY characters genuinely can deal with actual ghost-characters, or Jojo stands or whatever based on this then its better than nothing. But i'd imagine people would rather want these profiles to not give any misconceptions

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Or we just don't need to keep adding powers we aren't sure about and have to draw from thinly linked assumptions instead of concrete fact. As long as people arent going to be saying RWBY characters genuinely can deal with actual ghost-characters, or Jojo stands or whatever based on this then its better than nothing. But i'd imagine people would rather want these profiles to not give any misconceptions

Youre the only one who isnt sure of it, there are no misconceptions beyond the ones youre making up

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Elemental Intangibility is still physical. It doesnt equate to NPI, even in the way you are describing the Grimm. Molecules are still physical and Ruby has to actively split her body in her petal form to dodge solid objects (I can prove this for anyone who needs proof, im assuming everyone with RWBY knowledge here knows this though). Her molecules are still localised despite separate, and there is still a mass/force to her attacks, which goes against the whole basis of non-physical

Non-Physical Interaction

The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm. It should be noted that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm."

Being able to interact with elemental intangibility is still NPI.

Commentary transcript says 'Ghost Grimm' while they were thinking of the design process. Same way a Beowolf would be a 'wolf grimm' or a Goliath would be an 'elephant Grimm', but still not be actual members of the species. They aren't ghosts and they're still made from the same material as other Grimm.

Commentary says its a ghost grimm, guidebook says its intangible, geist itself demonstrates the ability to enter physical matter to take control of it, do you see the correlation here?

Blake missed. She was panicked, just shooting around with no confirmations the bullet hit the Geist whatsoever. It was dark (despite how shes supposed to have night-vision but RWBY forgets that all the time), she was taken by surprise and we dont actually see the bullets interact with the body.

Mhmm, sure, the character who has consistently shown to be able to accurately hit targets from hundreds of meters away with her pistol and tag opponents with her shots in pitch darkness due to her night vision somehow missed multiple point-blank shots against a completely stationary opponent.

The Geist also tries to physically attack her using its claws (likely made from the same bone-material as its mask even if the main body is intangible)

Ah yes, the same 'bone material' that was shown to intangibly enter into a tree trunk to possess it in the fight with RNJR

Qrow and Clover's semblances cancel eachother out. In this scenario its foggy to say Qrow's bad luck was what made Clover miss his fishing rod.

Except Qrow confirms it was his semblance that did so

He was generally trying to catch the Geist physically, but this still doesn't mean they have NPI since its still very possible their main bodies arent always 100% intangible. The geist didnt think to go through walls or literally noclip to avoid getting hit after all. It chose to possess disembodied rocks.

Its almost like Geists entering matter makes them possess said matter, so they have to pick and choose what they enter in order to make a viable body and not just be a sitting duck in a wall that can be easily killed. And as of yet you still havent proven that theyre not always intangible.

We don't know how Chill interaction works and should stop talking about it even though its described as specialized. Maybe these specialized huntsmen have NPI for 1 specific type of Grimm, but until they're introduced in the show, theyre a made up character trying to be scaled to.

"This thing proves me wrong, we should stop talking about it."

Best argument

 

[Jinx666]

Youre the only one who isnt sure of it, there are no misconceptions beyond the ones youre making up

I'm not, people have outright said its all speculation, and i'm very aware that one online community doesn't mean i have to forcibly change my opinion on this stance.

I've made several points, no matter how much you dont agree with them, showing states of the Geist NOT being intangible like you claim. Its been hit before, but instead of using this to critically think about whether the possibility of the Geist just...not being intangible 24/7, it is just widely being assumed (for the sake of high-ending) that instead its an example of NPI. And even though its never been hinted to before, and only a few characters are seen doing it, the assumption that Aura is the reason for this NPI interaction is trying to make it scale to every RWBY character.

How many assumptions are going to have to overlap and loop around the claim that RWBY HAS to have NPI, instead of just taking it to face value that maybe the Geist isnt so passively intangible like you have hoped, and can be hit.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I mean, the Chill is literally a living shadow, and the Nightmare was fought by Team RWBY in a dreamscape, its a bit disingenuous to claim that all Grimm are strictly physical beings

I’m not claiming that, I’m saying their argument for “ghost-like” is not relevant to the current topic or would give them any specific intangibility.

Elemental Intangibility is still physical. It doesnt equate to NPI, even in the way you are describing the Grimm. Molecules are still physical and Ruby has to actively split her body in her petal form to dodge solid objects (I can prove this for anyone who needs proof, im assuming everyone with RWBY knowledge here knows this though). Her molecules are still localised despite separate, and there is still a mass/force to her attacks, which goes against the whole basis of non-physical

Commentary transcript says 'Ghost Grimm' while they were thinking of the design process. Same way a Beowolf would be a 'wolf grimm' or a Goliath would be an 'elephant Grimm', but still not be actual members of the species. They aren't ghosts and they're still made from the same material as other Grimm.

Blake missed. She was panicked, just shooting around with no confirmations the bullet hit the Geist whatsoever. It was dark (despite how shes supposed to have night-vision but RWBY forgets that all the time), she was taken by surprise and we dont actually see the bullets interact with the body. The Geist also tries to physically attack her using its claws (likely made from the same bone-material as its mask even if the main body is intangible), showing it can still physically interact with things. If its only a one-sided relationship, that should be proven directly instead of brushed off

Qrow and Clover's semblances cancel eachother out. In this scenario its foggy to say Qrow's bad luck was what made Clover miss his fishing rod. He was generally trying to catch the Geist physically, but this still doesn't mean they have NPI since its still very possible their main bodies arent always 100% intangible. The geist didnt think to go through walls or literally noclip to avoid getting hit after all. It chose to possess disembodied rocks.

We don't know how Chill interaction works and should stop talking about it even though it’s described as specialized. Maybe these specialized huntsmen have NPI for 1 specific type of Grimm, but until they're introduced in the show, theyre a made up character trying to be scaled to.

The interacting with Elemental intangibility gives NPI, just for elemental intangibility. I believe you’re focusing too hard on the “non-physical” portion of this. For instance, in One Piece, the characters are intangible through their elements, but can be hit with Haki. That is NPI, and so hitting Ruby would count towards that.

Everything else you’re claiming is correct.

Alrighty, apologies for the wait

Correct

Correct, theres also some stuff in the supplementary books and even in the show itself, stuff like her splitting into multiple clouds of molecules and petals to disperse around attacks and obstacles, but thats beside the point. I can grab instances of this is you'd like though.

Correct, and theres also the writer's commentary for the show where they talk about it being a ghost

Volume 4 commentary transcript:

"Kerry: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Um, so. So yeah when we're, we first came up with different types of Grimm we were just kinda brainstorming like what could be out there. And um, we wanted to have y'know t-this type of Grimm that could possess other things because we wanted to have, y'know a rock monster. Uh, not a rock lobster but a rock monster. (Gray laughs) Um, sorry made me think of it. And (Gray laughs) we, we were trying to justify like y'know, know we want the Grimm to be... y'know, more or-organic or more, um, little bit more like easily understandable. So we thought well, what about a ghost Grimm? I think that was one of the first things that came up and we talked about doing a poltergeist which turned into, because we're clever, Geist. Um, we're not clever, that was a joke. (Chuckling, possibly from Kowan) Um, so y'know one of the original things we're talking about is, is while uh, Monty's working on the White Trailer we're trying to figure out... why... 'cause the initial idea was just like she's fighting a suit of armour because she is (Gray: 'Cause it is cool) 'Cause it's cool, (Gray chuckles) she's Snow White, she's in a castle like, not the White Castle, but she's in a castle. Uh, like this would be cool and then, y'know, like many ideas it's like "Alright well here is the end result, how do we get there?" And we talked about yeah, the idea that a Geist is a type of Grimm that can possess different things. So, we start coming with different terminology. This was uh, a Petra Gigas, uh the, the Armored Knight was an Arma Gigas, um I think we had some others (Miles: There's a few others) but y'know (Miles is difficult to hear) that's for later. - 11mins, 36secs in. "

Correct, they are effectively living shadows, and its basically a reverse Geist, it possesses living beings instead of innate matter. Also of note, the same scan i posted for the Chills has Ozpin recounting how he has met with numerous huntsmen who have encountered and killed Chills. The only thing the specialized huntsmen and tools do is save the person possessed by the Chill from dying when it leaves their body.

Correct

Correct

It has yes, in the White Trailer Weiss burned the ghost bodies of the Geists that were possessing the Arma Gigas without actively hitting the masks, same with the depiction of the fight in Ice Queendom.


Of note, the Arma Gigas is multiple geists possessing one body, so even if she hit one mask, she wouldnt have killed the Arma Gigas in the way that she did, and as shown by the fight between RNJR and the Petra Gigas, destroying the Geist's possessed body doesnt normally kill them, so in that fight she destroyed both the possessed body and he Geist's intangible bodies.

Aside from using them to possess matter, no



It is not, no

Ye, Blake shot a Geist multiple times with non-Dust bullets without hitting its mask


Yes, while Aura is an invisible energy most of the time, all weapons channel Aura, which is seen when the characters take heavy hits.

Spoiler

Covering Tyrian's arm blades

Covering Mercury's prosthetic legs

Covering Harriet's gauntlets

Covering Maria's scythes

Covering Nora's grenade launcher

Covering Jaune's sword and shield

Theres the instance of Clover attempting to hook the Geists' body with his hook but missing due to Qrow's semblance (implying that he would have been able to hook its intangible body if not for Qrow's passive bad luck) as well as Blake shooting the Geist in the body several times beforehand.

I feel you didn’t quite answer Fire’s question regarding Aura.

NO, THERE IS NEVER AN INDICATION FOR WHEN AURA IS COATING AN OBJECT FOR ATTACKS.

That should be cleared up. The only time Aura is shown is for forcefields around people, which is why it is ridiculously inconsistent.

All your other points are fine.

The Weiss vs Arma Gigas seems to be your most promising argument. Given she killed them all by destroying what they were inhabiting, I would still argue that destroying the mask would have been a factor of it.

Also, this was part of the numerous retcons in RWBY. The White trailer was invented long before Geist were even a concept, and the particular way she killed the Arma is something we’ve never seen again.

Not to mention that the Arma even BEING a Grimm was something only put forth in the Manga Anthology, wherein it had a ridiculously different design, on top of the anthology being a very different story altogether from the main show.

I would need secondary opinion before fully arguing about the Arma Gigas.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also yeah Blake just missed and Clover’s semblance counter’s Qrows. So he just missed, that doesn’t imply much.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

NO, THERE IS NEVER AN INDICATION FOR WHEN AURA IS COATING AN OBJECT FOR ATTACKS.

That should be cleared up. The only time Aura is shown is for forcefields around people, which is why it is ridiculously inconsistent.

Boyo i literally posted a bunch of scans of aura coating weapons, look in the spoiler tab (I put it there so it wouldnt double the length of my response)

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Boyo i literally posted a bunch of scans of aura coating weapons, look in the spoiler tab (I put it there so it wouldnt double the length of my response)

Don’t talk to me like that Weekly.

Those are all just the forcefield. They asked if it is coating it for attacks, like dust bullets and the like.

AURA IS ONLY EVER SHOWN WHEN THEY TAKE DAMAGE OR IT IS ABOUT TO GO AWAY.

That is what I said, and that is exactly what your pictures show.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

There is no visual distinction between an attack that has Aura and one that does not.

When Blake and Yang stab Adam, it is the exact same stab that it would be if they had their Aura up.

There is no difference. Also this is the least important argument other than the Chill.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Don’t talk to me like that Weekly.

Those are all just the forcefield. They asked if it is coating it for attacks, like dust bullets and the like.

Talk to you like what...?

Ye, Dust as a weapon requires Aura to function properly:



"Dust. By definition, it is a naturally occurring energy propellant that can be triggered by the Aura of Humans and Faunus. But in reality, it is much, much more."

AURA IS ONLY EVER SHOWN WHEN THEY TAKE DAMAGE OR IT IS ABOUT TO GO AWAY.

That is what I said, and that is exactly what your pictures show.

There is no visual distinction between an attack that has Aura and one that does not.

When Blake and Yang stab Adam, it is the exact same stab that it would be if they had their Aura up.

Ah okay i see what you mean, yeah, Aura is invisible 90% of the time. It still coats their weapons and the like, we just dont see it.

 

[Jinx666]

Non-Physical Interaction

The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm. It should be noted that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm."

Being able to interact with elemental intangibility is still NPI.

Elemental intangibility is a simulation of intangibility. Its a form of intangibility that doesnt actually make you intangible, but allows you to pass through PARTIALLY permeable things. Like someone made of water being able to walk through a grate.

Interacting with a substance/element is NOT the same as being able to interact with non-corporeality, or any of that stuff. Hence why theres a big differentiation

Commentary says its a ghost grimm, guidebook says its intangible, geist itself demonstrates the ability to enter physical matter to take control of it, do you see the correlation here?

Commentary describes it as a ghost grimm in the design aspect. Doesnt make it a ghost.

Guidebook uses one adjective to say its intangible, moves on to its main possession power, and you're making huge assumptions abt how it works just based on one word.

Possession power =/= Intangibility.

Mhmm, sure, the character who has consistently shown to be able to accurately hit targets from hundreds of meters away with her pistol and tag opponents with her shots in pitch darkness due to her night vision somehow missed multiple point-blank shots against a completely stationary opponent.

Bro, Blake set her own house on fire trying to find Illia in the dark. Shes dumb. RWBY's writing is dumb

She was spooked, it was dark, the Geist took her by a clear surprise, and it wasn't stationary, you yourself admit it just kept running away. We do not see any of the bullets physically go through, or even interact with the Geist. This is another assumption

Ah yes, the same 'bone material' that was shown to intangibly enter into a tree trunk to possess it in the fight with RNJR

The Geist possesses. It only goes intangible through things it wants to possess. Its a linked power, but doesnt mean as such. If anything we can see the geist actively make an impact on the ground when it possessed the tree

Except Qrow confirms it was his semblance that did so

He didn't say this in exact regards to his semblance. It was in regards to the rock that was about to fall on Clover or whatever.

The semblances cancel out clearly. We cant just blame every plot inconvenience on Qrow unless its fully broadcasted as such

Its almost like Geists entering matter makes them possess said matter, so they have to pick and choose what they enter in order to make a viable body and not just be a sitting duck in a wall that can be easily killed. And as of yet you still havent proven that theyre not always intangible.

If you were intangible to every physical attack then you shouldnt be scared of being hit in the first place.
They possess the rocks to make themselves actually capable of dealing damage, but are still implied to cause harm in general in its true form, as well as the fact it physically tried to attack Blake.
If a Geist was always intangible, why are they actively trying to attack a character physically?

"This thing proves me wrong, we should stop talking about it."

Best argument

Bro, if anything it proves YOU wrong. Actually says only SPECIALIZED people and things can even interact with a chill (Not kill it. Much like you said)

Literally every instance of the Chill being the reason for NPI was swapped to the Geist. No one acknowledges this as a point and you've actively skipped my point just to try and quote on something irrelevant.

Even i admit the Geist is a much better argument to make than the Chill, please just save us the extra useless talking point

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm not, people have outright said its all speculation, and i'm very aware that one online community doesn't mean i have to forcibly change my opinion on this stance.

No Jinx, you alone have said its speculation. You dont have to change your opinion but neither does anyone else, thats what you dont seem to understand. You see people with opinions that differ from your own and your first instinct is to attack them and do everything in your power to try to tell them that they are wrong.

I've made several points, no matter how much you dont agree with them, showing states of the Geist NOT being intangible like you claim. Its been hit before, but instead of using this to critically think about whether the possibility of the Geist just...not being intangible 24/7, it is just widely being assumed (for the sake of high-ending) that instead its an example of NPI. And even though its never been hinted to before, and only a few characters are seen doing it, the assumption that Aura is the reason for this NPI interaction is trying to make it scale to every RWBY character.

Youve made points but have not provided any evidence to back up those points. Therefore, those points are irrelevant, a textbook argument from ignorance fallacy, you have nothing to prove that you are right. All youve done this entire thread is make up scenarios and insult people who have argued against you.

How many assumptions are going to have to overlap and loop around the claim that RWBY HAS to have NPI, instead of just taking it to face value that maybe the Geist isnt so passively intangible like you have hoped, and can be hit.

None, as no assumptions have been made. The assumption in this case is your assumption that the Geists must have the ability to become tangible, when everything sown and stated about the Geist says otherwise.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Talk to you like what...?

Ye, Dust as a weapon requires Aura to function properly:



"Dust. By definition, it is a naturally occurring energy propellant that can be triggered by the Aura of Humans and Faunus. But in reality, it is much, much more."

Ah okay i see what you mean, yeah, Aura is invisible 90% of the time. It still coats their weapons and the like, we just dont see it.

Don’t call me boyo, you say that when you’re about to get agitated.

The question was for dust bullets.

When Ruby shoots a normal dust bullet, she is not using her aura to activate it, she’s just shooting a bullet through her scythe’s mechanism. And as you said, that is never shown to have actual Aura on it. But the point in total isn’t completely relevant either way.

I would much rather you talk about the Arma.

Because the only way you could say that Weiss has NPI for killing them is to say she didn’t hit their masks… but she would have had to hit their masks when she burned their entire construct.

On top of the Giant Knight even BEING an Arma coming from the manga anthology, which is… very very different. Also using Ice Queendom, which is also very very different and specifically non-canon, doesn’t aid you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Don’t call me boyo, you say that when you’re about to get agitated.

I mean do ya blame him?

 

[Jinx666]

No Jinx, you alone have said its speculation. You dont have to change your opinion but neither does anyone else, thats what you dont seem to understand. You see people with opinions that differ from your own and your first instinct is to attack them and do everything in your power to try to tell them that they are wrong.

Aye Aye Aye

Youve made points but have not provided any evidence to back up those points. Therefore, those points are irrelevant, a textbook argument from ignorance fallacy, you have nothing to prove that you are right. All youve done this entire thread is make up scenarios and insult people who have argued against you.

Except i have...and the main issue here is i dont think theres enough evidence for NPI since you are only assuming the ideal.

People have genuinely admitted they're trying to 'high-end' this and are only arguing for the fun

None, as no assumptions have been made. The assumption in this case is your assumption that the Geists must have the ability to become tangible, when everything sown and stated about the Geist says otherwise.

Gotta love how the Geist could literally get physically hit, multiple times, and it'll just be assumed RWBY have NPI over thinking that m a y be RWBY is just contradicting itself? Over a fact not even officially and concretely established in the show.

Th is an intangible being doing trying to physically attack someone?