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All of your questions are invalid, as they rely entirely on assumptions and what if scenarios that make no sense in context of the verse
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RWBY - Immaterial Non-Physical Interaction Review
- Thread starter Jinx666
- Start date
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The Geist's arm its possessing is being help back physically, showing the Geist in an actual physical struggle with the characters
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Not at all, the Geist in that state is effectively just a force holding its famicile of a body together through possession, its body is still intangible in that state, which is further proven by the second clip i posted
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Nice try, thats Gravity dust components.
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Jinx, bro, stop responding to Weekly.
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Which she manipulates remotely via her aura, yes
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this is like herding cats
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Where is this stated?
You can use Dust without the need for aura, there could easily be a signal generation. Dust is literally also the main energy source for this world, not just utilized by huntsmen.
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@Damage3245
May we temporarily lock this thread until I can compile a comprehensive post later today?
May we temporarily lock this thread until I can compile a comprehensive post later today?
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I'll do it.
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Please keep this thread locked to only allow staff to discuss the findings for now.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245
Summary of Geist Characteristics in the Show:
@DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245
Summary of Geist Characteristics in the Show:
- V1C1
- First Appearance
- It consists of gray boulders, which form a central body and four levitating limbs. Through the Geist's influence, these boulders gain red vein-like markings. No shadow-like connections between the pieces depicted.
- When a possessed limb is destroyed, a glyph forms, summoning a Shadow Hand, the same as Salem's and Cinder's. Like the rocks, it also moves disconnected from the central body.
- Shadow Hands can stretch and siphon Maiden powers, and their claws can impale opponents.
- The Geist's shadow hand is plunged into a tree to use as an upgraded arm.
- Stated to not care about its body parts.
- Stated to keep protecting its face.
- After all its limbs are destroyed, the Geist leaves the central body.
- Ruby shoots it in the mask.
- V7C3
- A Geist attempts to claw at Blake, striking and dispersing her clone.
- Blake fires three shots at the Geist with no visible contact.
- Instead of phasing through the floor or the walls to escape, the Geist files down the tunnel.
- Qrow fires repeatedly at the Geist, which swerves and spirals around in the tunnel, avoiding the bullets.
- Clover deploys his fishing rod and sends the hook out at the Geist.
- Presumably, it would have made contact with the geist tail.
- The Geist swoops into a giant chunk of ice with a minecart embedded in it and rises up, gathering more ice, rocks, and metal from the walls to form its body.
- When the Gigas appeared to team RWBY, there were no black tendrils between the ice and rock pieces.
- When someone attempts to pull out one of his arms, a black tendril forms between the rocks in an attempt to pull it back. A boomerang is used to cut this newly appeared tendril.
- The boomerang is then used on a bone claw arm carrying a mine cart. After the arm is hit, the cart falls down.
- Going frame by frame shows that the black tendrils between pieces only appear after a limb has sustained significant damage and attempts to pull itself together.
- Clover deploys his fishing rod and pulls the geist out by the mask.
- Harriet does an uppercut on the Geist's mask, killing it.
- Based on the above, I see the Geist as selectively intangible.
- Passively they are tangible. They are able to use their claws as tangible weapons, and they still try to dodge bullets and hooks.
- The central body can telekinetically pull pieces to form its body.
- When a limb is damaged or about to be pulled away, the geist summons a Shadow Hand / Limbs to maintain the pieces. These Shadow Hands are not part of the main Geist bosy and are tangible, just like Cinder's and Salem's.
- Regarding NPI, it seems that it is selectively intangible during possession, but I would like to discuss my findings with the other staff before I give a conclusive opinion.
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These conclusions seem accurate to me. If we're starting off from a neutral viewpoint and not already assuming that the cast has Non-Physical Interaction, then instances like the Geists dodging attacks, attempting to claw somebody, etc. indicate to me that the Geist has a tangible existence.
Every instance we've seen of the Geist "phasing" into solid material has been exclusively to possess it. No phasing through walls or ceilings to hide. No phasing through bullets or punches.
Although the "Shadow Hands can stretch and siphon Maiden powers" part, only Cinder has shown the ability to absorb Maiden powers, we shouldn't assume Geists can do it too.
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These conclusions look good.
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WeeklyBattles messaged me their concerns which I will address.
Your thoughts?
- How does the Geist dodging bullets and attacks discredit it being intangible? If the cast can hit it with their attacks of course it would attempt to dodge those attacks. The guidebook even says they are passively intangible.
- According to the site rules, we do not assume that guide statements as absolute fact. They need to be supported by the source material first.
- As demonstrated in the show, Geists use their claws and intentionally dodge bullets and hooks and don't casually phase through walls or floors to run away. They only show phasing when possessing something. Their mask can be pulled by a wire.
- Damage summed this up, but to clarify, no, that is the Geist's arm, only Cinder's artificial arm, which is the fusion of her own limb and another Grimm that specifically has the ability to absorb magic, is able to siphon magic. Cinder's arm and the arms Salem summons hold no bearing on the Grist's limbs.
- My point is that the Geist use an arm Summon like others in the cast. This arm summon is demonstrably tangible.
- The arm that Marrow cut is the Geist's own arm, and is intangible.
- According to show, the Geist itself stays in the central body piece. When making black limbs of the golem, it uses a glyph to summon an arm, much like others who used the glyph. The Geist's actual arm isn't as large as the one forming from the golem. The geist themselves don't have size changing either.
Your thoughts?
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I agree with Weekly.
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Perhaps I missed something from my viewing. Did something from the show stand out to you for passive intangibility?
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@Firestorm808 I agree with your assessment still. The guidebook does not say that the Geist is "passively intangible" or "always intangible". I have no problem with accepting that intangibility is a part of its powerset... when it is phasing into objects to possess them.
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It does say "Intangible Grimm"
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@Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus
Since there is no unanimous opinion, how should we proceed?
Should we allow both sides to make one post each to address the remaining concerns before we make a decision?
Since there is no unanimous opinion, how should we proceed?
Should we allow both sides to make one post each to address the remaining concerns before we make a decision?
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Proposing a compromise solution that both sides can accept is another option too.
Though I think what you've suggested is already a good compromise. If we have three staff members who agree with it, then I think we can proceed.
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I see.
My earlier evaluation can be summarized as the following:
Geists - Limited/Selective Immaterial Intangibility (When possessing an object, they are able to go into the physical object. They are capable of using their claws to attack huntsman physically.)
Shadow Arms - Tangible
I see the Shadow Arms summoned by the Geist Golem as not passively intangible, as they can physically hold up a mine cart.
Have any of your opinions changed, or do you have any questions?
On another note, Weekly says they'll provide another character with an intangibility semblance that was touched. I will be waiting for the details.
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@Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus
A more recent event comes from RWBY: Arrowfell (November 15th, 2022)
Here, we are introduced to Team BRIR.
The members in question are:
Differing from the cutscenes, Bianca is able to stop mid-air and dash straight across the map while creating yellow afterimages. While in mid-air, she can still take damage from the player. At the ends of the map, portals are shown made prior to contact, and two are open simultaneously.
However, similar to the cutscenes, Ruda does not have an orange glow when not inside objects.
The player is able to hit a non-glowing Ruda before she enters the ground.
Game Mechanics of the hitboxes start to show when the player can hit and be hit by Ruda before she even exits the ground.
Here's my evaluation:
Based on the depiction of Ruda's use of her semblance during the boss fight, I do not see Bianca's yellow afterimage dash and use of portals as signs that Delve was being used. No NPI is depicted here.
I lean against there being justification that Ruda can be hit while in her delve state.
What do you guys think?
A more recent event comes from RWBY: Arrowfell (November 15th, 2022)
Here, we are introduced to Team BRIR.
The members in question are:
- Ruda Tilleroot (The redhead with the drills on her hands)
- Bianca Prisma (The blonde with the daggers)
- Ivy Thickety (Brunette in Green)
- Delve - Ability to dive into and swim through the ground without actually creating a hole. While in an object, she gives off an orange glow. When punching the Elephant Grimm, she doesn't have the orange glow.
- Refraction - Refraction allows Bianca to copy the Semblance of others. She does so by showing a reflection of them using it seen on her prism daggers Cause and Effect.
- Threshold - The ability to create small portals, which she uses both long and short distance for her weapon.
Differing from the cutscenes, Bianca is able to stop mid-air and dash straight across the map while creating yellow afterimages. While in mid-air, she can still take damage from the player. At the ends of the map, portals are shown made prior to contact, and two are open simultaneously.
However, similar to the cutscenes, Ruda does not have an orange glow when not inside objects.
The player is able to hit a non-glowing Ruda before she enters the ground.
Game Mechanics of the hitboxes start to show when the player can hit and be hit by Ruda before she even exits the ground.
Here's my evaluation:
Based on the depiction of Ruda's use of her semblance during the boss fight, I do not see Bianca's yellow afterimage dash and use of portals as signs that Delve was being used. No NPI is depicted here.
I lean against there being justification that Ruda can be hit while in her delve state.
What do you guys think?
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Will respond in a couple days due to travel.
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I say give "Possibly Non-Physical Interaction" to the individuals who have been shown directly interacting with Geists, and remove it from the rest of the characters.
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Seems fine.
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Alright, it seems we have reached a resolution. I am also fine with the proposal.
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@Firestorm808 Were the changes implemented, or should we re-open the thread now so that Jinx can let us know when it's done?
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We can open the thread for the revisions now.
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Eyo we back
Well as much as i dont get why we would keep it as a possibility on Clover, Harriet and Ruby (Theres literally nothing special about them that means only they would have non-physical interaction) as opposed to just removing the shaky power from the verse entirely until theres an actual airtight case, but i sure as hell dont need this starting back up so im cool with it
I wont be able to edit every single verse page of RWBY rn, im super busy and have only basically had this day off to return to all this. If theres anyone out there that can do it, then thats ideal for me, but once i got time ill do it then.
Well as much as i dont get why we would keep it as a possibility on Clover, Harriet and Ruby (Theres literally nothing special about them that means only they would have non-physical interaction) as opposed to just removing the shaky power from the verse entirely until theres an actual airtight case, but i sure as hell dont need this starting back up so im cool with it
I wont be able to edit every single verse page of RWBY rn, im super busy and have only basically had this day off to return to all this. If theres anyone out there that can do it, then thats ideal for me, but once i got time ill do it then.
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I can help get started on the edits.
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Alright, I revised all the profiles. Rewatching the clip again, Marrow was the only one who cuts the black geist mass that connects the limbs together.
Closing this thread now.
Closing this thread now.
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