RWBY downgrades?

[Soldier_Blue]

After discussions in this thread, RWBY top tiers were upgraded to High 7-C based on the feat of a Maiden creating a storm which requires energy of the order of a Petajoule or more. This inspired me to make a request for an upgrade to a character from another verse (which would scale to a lot of other people) but @Kkapoios noted that it should be classed as environmental destructive capacity only (refer comments #9 and #15 in this thread). I didn't further discuss this potential downgrade on that thread as it would have been hypocritical of me to do so.


Anyway, my proposal is two fold:

(1) Change Cinder's AP to Low 7-C with High 7-C environmental destruction

(2) Downgrade those who had previously been upgraded to High 7-C back to Low 7-C


So what do you people think? Some input from staff familiar with the verse would be welcome.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I firmly believe that creating a storm is enviromental destruction.

Also a hurricane generates 6*10^14 Watts of power over an area of 665 km^2 (That's 143 kilotons of TNT per second, Large Town level) and i really doubt that a small storm can have near that amount of energy.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure that "Enviromental destruction" isn't officially a thing. It seems to have only been used in cases like flooding a city with summoned being, or things that can't be put into energy. While a storm can, but I think it should only be High 7-C if it was shown that the character doesn't need to keep the storm active constantly (As High 7-C is the total energy of a storm, not the one required to summon it)

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree with Kk.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ins't creating a storm just weather manipulation? it shouldn't be scalable, futhermore, I'm not agreed in converting power to energy.

Anyway, I would agree with the downgrade.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's like saying creating a city of stone is "just earth manipulation" and shouldn't scale. Manipulating weather should be used as an AP source as much as doing anything over a large distance, like I don't know water manipulating an ocean.

 

[Antoniofer]

Creating a city from stone sound pretty much as earth manipulation (as some scenes from Avatar that I remember). If the character altered the weather like Saitama or All Might did it, or bombarding the clouds like in real life, it could be scaled; but just creating the storm doesn't seems like something quatificable at all, it just weather manipulation. Also, even if is scalable in AP, how those characters were upgrading in durability too? did they just received the entire power of the storm in one just point? doesn't seems possible, but haven't watched the scene

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can't just say "it's weather manipulation" and be done with it without thinking about the energy needed to create such storm.

If it scales to regular AP, it should apply to the durability of people taking full hits from such character.

 

[Antoniofer]

How is creating a storm directly related to physical strength? If the character didn't show that level in physical strength before creating the storm, nor after creating it, is completely unrelated.; in short, that hasn't sense at all. Can you show me the feat and watch how actually the people deal with this storm?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't know about this case here, but generally, characters who can do Thunderstorms can use their power offensively as well, and their storm creating powers should scale to their offensive power. Again I don't know about this particular case

 

[Antoniofer]

Generally, people that create thunderstorm only attacks with lightnings and wind blasts, that are far below Town level (tho lightning should ignore durability in theory), if not just let that the storm blow anything. Even if the storm has 10^12 or 10^15 W of powers, that is unrelated to other attacks that the character can do.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It's been a standard of ours to take thunderstorm creating as direct AP. Heck, it's been that way for a while.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can't assume their offensive WM would be far lower than when they make a storm, much like how characters rarely uses huge AoE attacks normally.

 

[Antoniofer]

Now, you just can't assume AoE in that way, generally AoE situations has justifications, like damaging someone with high durability, and real life phenomenon like this doesn't posseses AoE. I known that thunderstorm release enough energy in certain time equivalent to a nuke, but the way that it release it is pretty different: this is just a electric field, there's no fire nor overpressure, so we should consider this kind of scaling for character sthat create thunderstorm in this way.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Now I'm confused by the conflicting answers from Kkapoios and Everlasting.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ever is right, we generally accept creating a thunderstorm as direct AP, as seen for characters such as Lightning Rod, Weather Report, and Janna Windforce, and to a greater extent of storm creation Storm and Tornadus

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Is that an official vs battles policy or just accepted practice?

 

[Cropfist]

It seems to be an accepted practice.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

If so, then given the energy mechanism of that verse, we're looking at a lot of upgrades. I have to press my case again on that thread it seems. Well either that or the stuff in this thread's OP is to be accepted.

 

[Antoniofer]

I just watched the scene, and no see why anyone should scale to the power of a storm: without mentioning my points from above, the storm cover a little area, isn't a realistic storm so shouldn't have the same power as a real one; and nothing in the scene seems to be similar to Town level. Going the OP idea, better to just give her a High 7-C rating via weather manipulation, and no one should scale to her.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Antoniofer.

 

[Gemmysaur]

We're going to have to specify how we handle storms with regards to AP.

Summoning storms show how much energy one can use, but not always imo shows how much attack power one can muster. Especially one such as this where the storm wasn't even being used much if at all.

I'd accept it if it's like MCU Thor's using a tornado to lift the Destroyer off the ground, or Rudeus Greyrat flash freezing the rain he created midair into a mountain-sized chunk of ice, or EMH Thor summoning a city-wide storm and using it to its fullest effect by rainspamming lightning bolts at Galactus.

The maiden's storm however, only threw like a gust of wind or two, few lightning bolts, and none else.

If we accept creating a storm as a direct translation to AP, then Esdeath should be Country level, and that scales to Tyrantsumi and trump card Akame for keeping up with her while the storm is up, but it's not and is only counted as environmental destruction.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Also having High 7-C Attack Potency would imply that the character would be able to hurt everyone with lesser durability but i really doubt that a storm would do any harm to someone who can survive a small nuke.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Creating a storm requires energy. Energy measured in Joules. Said energy would come from the character's body, and applied to the production of the storm.

There is no such thing as "Environmental Destruction", that term is only used for Downplaying.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I'm not sure how creating a storm is similar to the damage a tornado can wreak on the enviroment.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Creating a storm requires energy. Energy measured in Joules. Said energy would come from the character's body, and applied to the production of the storm.
There is no such thing as "Environmental Destruction", that term is only used for Downplaying.

Environtmental destruction is a thing.


Affecting only the ambient but being unable to use that against the opponent directly

 

[Antoniofer]

^Yeah, what Aiden said, also, pretty sure there're several characters that works in this way, Lapis Lazuli is one that came to mind; the energy of the thunderstorm is unrealeted to the physical strength, therefore, is not scalable, just another weather manipulation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People fully miss the thing that if you can wield energy to cause storm, you should use it for other things too.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This has turned into something bigger than just RWBY, Staff should probably set rules for enviromental destruction after a discussion in a staff thread, so it ends the confusion surrounding this topic. I think.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

People fully miss the thing that if you can wield energy to cause storm, you should use it for other things too.

Try to explain 6-B Esdeath and High 6-B Yamamoto

 

[Antoniofer]

People fully miss the thing that if you can wield energy to cause storm, you should use it for other things too.

That doesn't sound different than what the phychics can do, they can do impressive stuff with telekinesis but generally their physical strength is far below, same with weather manipulator, magnetokinesis, etc.

Going with wath Aizen said, we should revise about this topic since another similar discussion is taking place

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with this. Some clarification should be there regarding energy used to create storms and such considering how common this kind of thing is in fiction.

 

[CinCameron20]

I agree with Kka and the rest that believe that the thunder storm should not scale to AP, and that a small-scaled thunder storm, as was displayed in the episode. We don't scale weather feats directly to characters on the wiki (ex: Esdeath), so why should it be any different for Amber and Cinder?

This is especially the case when someone like Tyrian, who scales directly to Qrow, could not stomp Ruby and co., despite there being an apparent 58 times difference. It make more sense for them to scale to the Grimm Dragon's feat and above silver eye'd Ruby, making them "At least Low 7-C" as a result, which is more consistent.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with you that the RBWY top tiers should be brought down to Low 7-C. But I would not read too much into Tyrian not outright stomping Ruby & Co and use that as justification for a downgrade. Numerous times in fiction we see characters a tier or even two tiers above someone else not outright stomp them but at the same time, even in the same work, we might see a character stomping another character in the exact same tier (Dragon Ball and the HST are the ones most guilty of this inconsistency).

 

[Cropfist]

So, the downgrade will be implemented?

 

[CinCameron20]

if there are no objections, i will happily apply the downgrades to Low 7-C.

I don't see how a thunderstorm feat (a small one at that) compares to the energy required to create a normal sized hurricane (High 7-C).

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So, the downgrade will be implemented?

If this downgrade is implimented then every character i listed as well as all of the Mortal Kombat characters would need to be downgraded as well.

 

[Cropfist]

Add Lugia and everyone who scales to the list.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lugia's nothing like that, Crop, especially considering it's not a thunderstorm, it's long-lasting, and it uses its body to create it and not TK. Granted, Manectric would fit the list. Not to mention that I don't think this has been settled.