Bleach pre-time-skip upgrades (Sorry, by the way)

First off, I'd like to apologize to the staff. I know we've had a bunch of threads proposing upgrades for Bleach and it might have gotten a bit much for you at one point.

There was another thread (here) where we were discussing some upgrades for Bleach characters. However, @LordAizenSama closed it before we could finish discussing the upgrades I have in mind here. Now, I'm going to be a lazy shit and just copy & paste (but I will edit some of the pasted material).


Lieutenants and Fraccio

Ikkaku in shikai should be multi-city block level for contending with and even injuring Ichigo who was at 8-A at the time. I also propose we upgrade the other Lieutenants and Fraccion to multi-city block level by scaling from Ikkaku and Edrad. Some of the Fraccion are rated at city block level by scaling from Edrad and yet he is rated at multi-city block level. That's clearly a mistake.


Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baragga

Resurreccion Ulquiorra's durability is listed as town level. However, given how the Reiatsu and Hierro mechanisms work in that the same level of power used for offence is also used for defence, I propose Resurreccion Ulquiorra be put at flat out city level in terms of both AP and durability and the town level thing done away with. This upgrade would apply to Harribel and Baraggan in Resurreccion as well.


Hitsugaya

Pre-time-skip Hitsugaya's profile stats are just way too convoluted. If we went about making profiles for all Bleach Lieutenants and Captains like that, their profiles too wound end up similarly convoluted. Just put him at one place and keep it simple. The Byakuya Kuchiki profile has a similar problem.

I also wanted to ask about this: Cinder Fall in RWBY recently got upgraded to High 7-C since the maiden's power she took allows her to create storms which requires energy of the order of a Petajoule or more. Hitsugaya has shown the ability to create storm-like conditions on at least two occasions with his Zanpakuto over a really large area. Would a High 7-C upgrade for him be okay? I always thought he should be at this level (and also with at least town to large town level durability) for fighting Harribel as long as he did. I also do not think he should be weaker than Lisa and Mashiro.

Edit:

Also, there is this - where Hitsugaya's Reiatsu makes Coyote Starrk take notice. This tells us two things now: (1) Hitsugaya is way stronger than people give him credit for if the strongest Espada took note of that Reiatsu (2) Hitsugaya's Reiatsu is what is creating those storm-like conditions (by condensing water vapour in the atmosphere) which means this shit should scale to his AP as well and is not just EDC (as was the case with the RWBY upgrade recently - aura in that verse works similar to Reiatsu based on what I know)

@LordAizenSama, before he retired as a staff member, seemed okay with this upgrade and even made a request for a calc of the power Hitsugaya was putting out when creating said storm-like conditions (here) thinking it could yield higher results than just High 7-C. But nobody ever got to it. Oh well. I suppose we can go with the Wikipedia link for now.

Proposed change:

Attack Potency: Large Town level (His Reiatsu in Shikai and Bankai can create storm or blizzard like atmospheric conditions which requires energy of the order of a Petajoule or more)

Note: This applies to pre-time-skip Hitsugaya.

If High 7-C Hitsugaya is accepted, then these people also scale:

Pre-time-skip Byakuya Kuchiki (Should be comparable or superior to Hitsugaya)

Pre-time-skip Ichigo (Should not be weaker than Hitsugaya and fought evenly against Byakuya)

Pre-time-skip Zaraki (Should not be weaker than Hitsugaya. Is comparable to pre-time-skip Byakuya)

Probably pre-time-skip Komamura (Should be in the same ballpark as Hitsugaya and he fought Zaraki for a while off-screen)

Tosen? (Don't know about base Tosen but Hollow and Resurreccion Tosen should be superior to Komamura and Hitsugaya as well)

Espada numbered 7 and up (Zommari fought Byakuya and the others are superior to him)


Speaking of Komamura

Why is he at city block level in base in terms of AP and even durability? His shikai and bankai do not magically increase his own body's durability from base. The guy has fought Zaraki (albeit off-screen) and is one of the physically stronger captains according to Kubo's stat charts. His durability in base should be town level (large town if my proposed Hitsugaya upgrade is accepted) regardless of whether he's using a sealed Zanpakuto or Shikai or Bankai. Furthermore, his base AP and durability in base should not be less than that of the likes of Edrad, Ikkaku, Poww, Renji (who are all MCB). In fact, it should be far higher seeing as how he casually threw around Resurreccion Poww in base. Then there's the problem of things being convoluted as on the Hitsugaya and Byakuya profiles.

Edit: Here is my proposed change:

Attack Potency: Town level, higher with Bankai (Large Town level if the proposed Hitsugaya upgrade is accepted)

I also agreed to some of this Upgrades.

@AppleLord

Seen you a lot on these threads and you look like a Bleach expert. What is your opinion on the upgrades for the Lieutenants and Fraccion? That one upgrade is what @Amlad22 had issues with (though he seemingly had no issues with everything else)

Bump

Given that LordAizenSama has quit from his wiki position, and KuuIchigo is similarly missing in action, I do not think that we have anybody in the staff who can evaluate this, so regrettably we likely have to indefinitely postpone all Bleach content revision threads. My apologies.

I could, however, highlight this to see if anybody left in the staff are able to evaluate it.

Looks fairly good

Antvasima said:

I could, however, highlight this to see if anybody left in the staff are able to evaluate it.

Click to expand...

I hope there is enough input to get this done. Except for the Lieutenant & Fraccion fix, LordAizenSama seemed okay with the rest.

Ichigo's Shikai without getsuga tensho isn't Multi City Block level, the getsuga was calced to be very very low Multi City Block level (a bit above 100 tons of TNT) and without it he was getting his ass kicked by Renji while once Ichigo used it he pretty much one shot him.Which means barely Multi City Block level getsuga (the unnamed one that was used against Renji) >> Renji > Ikkaku.

About Hitsugaya, a very interesting thing is that everyone that creates a storm of some kind is automatically rated as Large Town level which shouldn't be the case, apart from a storm being merely enviromental destruction, one should count its size and then compare it to real life storms to find the values.

@Kkapoios Okay. Thank you for the help evaluating this. Do you think that what you mentioned above should be clarified within the profiles?

Kkapoios said:

Ichigo's Shikai without getsuga tensho isn't Multi City Block level, the getsuga was calced to be very very low Multi City Block level (a bit above 100 tons of TNT) and without it he was getting his ass kicked by Renji while once Ichigo used it he pretty much one shot him.Which means barely Multi City Block level getsuga (the unnamed one that was used against Renji) >> Renji > Ikkaku.

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I do not agree with this comment. Bleach chapter 161, page 06

Getsuga Tensho is Ichigo's own spiritual energy absorb by the blade and release as a highly condenced blast from the tip of the sword.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/161/6

Soldier Blue said:

@AppleLord
Seen you a lot on these threads and you look like a Bleach expert. What is your opinion on the upgrades for the Lieutenants and Fraccion? That one upgrade is what @Amlad22 had issues with (though he seemingly had no issues with everything else)

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The Lieutenants and Fracciones should be upgraded for the reason I stated above, and Ichigo never got a power boost to fight Renji.

@AppleLord Which proves?

Ichigo's usual strikes without being enhanced by large amount of his reiatsu couldn't do that much against Renji while the unnamed getsuga one shot him breaking his shikai in the process.

Kkapoios said:

@AppleLord Which proves?
Ichigo's usual strikes without being enhanced by large amount of his reiatsu couldn't do that much against Renji while the unnamed getsuga one shot him breaking his shikai in the process.

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It means that Ichigo's durability is that high, since in Bleach AP and DB come from the same energy. As stated, someone with higher Reiatsu (the physical form of spiritual energy) cannot be cut by someone weaker than him, unless is Hax. So, their slash do powerscale to the Getsuga Tensho since is just that his energy.

But as AppleLord stated, Getsuga Tensho is just Ichigo's Reiatsu used for ranged offensive purposes. It's like saying Lille Barro shouldn't be mountain level just because shots from his Reishi rifle are. As for Ichigo fighting Renji, he just didn't know how to properly focus and use his power if I recall correctly and he had a lot of hesitation.


As for Hitsugaya:

Oh? But I assumed it would scale to his AP since his Reiatsu creates said storm-like conditions (which Starrk took notice of). But if what you say is true, then this might warrant a downgrade for the RWBY top tiers with High 7-C EDC only (though I might make a separate thread for this altogether later and not discuss it here further as I would be a bloody hyprocite for doing so).

Also, even if Hitsugaya doesn't get this upgrade, we should still fix up his pre-time-skip profile and make it less convoluted. I'm thinking something like this below.

Attack Potency: At least Town level (Contended with Gin Ichimaru and even had him on the defensive at one point. As a fully fledged Captain, should not be weaker than the likes of Mashiro Kuna and Lisa Yadomaru), higher with Bankai (Fought against Tier Harribel for a good while)

Striking Strength: Class TJ

Durability: At least Town level, higher with Bankai (took attacks from Tier Harribel and was only slightly injured)

I honestly wonder why Hitsugaya is only MCB level here when he contended with one of the most powerful Espada for a good while. That certainly warrants a town level rating (especially when Lisa is rated at 7-C for the exact same reason).


Also, @Kkapoios and @AppleLord - What are your opinions on the proposed upgrades for Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan?

Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan have the same problem as the others above. My answered is the same as for Getsuga Tensho.

^ So you support the flat out 7-B rating for them in Resurreccion?

So you are pretty much trying to use character statements about reiatsu nature to make this work?

Also you are assuming that the getsuga and his casual sword swings have the same energy.

I'm against the idea of upgrading Ikkaku and other lieutenants due to this.

I'll check the other upgrades later.

Is there a problem with the author and how he contructed his energy system? Because is that so, we will need to recheck all anime verses that use energy. Is not an exception for anyone.

Are you assuming that Ichigo has another type of energy besides spiritual energy?

Kkapoios said:

So you are pretty much trying to use character statements about reiatsu nature to make this work?

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Using what we know overall of the Reiatsu stuff in this verse I would say is more apt.

Kkapoios said:

I'll check the other upgrades later.

Click to expand...

Okay. No need to rush. Take your time ^_^

I'm a supporter of this upgrade. It all makes sense especially the Toshiro part. He fought against halibel and surprised Starrk. Plus the storm cloud thing that you already talked about. Although I agree with Kkapoios in that the lieutenants should not be upgraded.

I was thinking, would this upgrade also work with the vizards captains? Shinji, Rose, Kensei and Love should all be upgraded with Toshiro to large town level since they are captain level vizards and shouldn't be weaker than Toshiro. Shinji might even need an upgrade to small city level for being able to hurt Aizen. If Shinji was truly town level he wouldn't have even hurt Aizen.

If Hitsugaya does get upgraded to High 7-C, then the following people scale (well besides the ones I already mentioned of course):

Shinji (The strongest of the Visored and regarded as dangerous even by base Aizen. Dominated Grimmjow. Cut Aizen. Makes sense for him to be at least on this level. I always thought Shinji should be far higher than where he's at currently)

Shinji, Rose, Kensei, Love (with Hollow Mask on)

Sui-Feng (Should be in the same ballpark as Hitsugaya. Her Bankai managed to injure the second most powerful Espada despite him not receiving the full brunt of it. Might even be small city level at least. So large town in base and potentially small city with Bankai?)

Pretty much every Sternritter

Amlad22 said:

I'm a supporter of this upgrade. It all makes sense especially the Toshiro part. He fought against halibel and surprised Starrk.

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Yeah it absolutely makes no sense whatsoever for Hitsugaya pre-time-skip to be only MCB. Another character is rated 7-C for the exact same reasons as Hitsugaya should be at least 7-C.

@Amlad22

He reminded me of not only how convoluted Byakuya's pre-time-skip stats are, but also of how low they are. Ganju notes that his power in base is at least comparable to that of Zaraki with his eyepatch on plus Byakuya & Zaraki pre-time-skip should overall be comparable (Zaraki was even itching to fight him when introduced).

Proposed change:

Attack Potency: At least Town level, higher with Bankai (Should be comparable to Kenpachi Zaraki with his eyepatch on. Should not be weaker than the likes of Sajin Komamura and Sui-Feng)

Note that this will be Large Town in case the Hitsugaya upgrade is accepted.

Le Bump

Try to get an admin to this thread. If there are other characters that are high 7-C for the same thing that Toshiro did, but somehow he isn't high 7-C, that's a problem. Then obviously everyone else will scale. I didn't even think of the sternritter scaling, good job for remembering them

Hitsugaya contends with the third strongest Espada for a good while

- He's only 8-A

Lisa contends with Harribel for a few moments with the help of two others.

- She's at 7-C

It's unlikely to be some bias against him. I guess someone just straight up forgot to fix up Hitsugaya's profile when they fixed up Harribel's. It seems to happen a lot here given the sheer number of characters to deal with. There's a similar problem with several Star Wars profiles as well and that's a way more popular verse.

Also, as for 7-C Lisa - I don't think contending with Harribel for a little while with the help of two others is good enough reasoning. I honestly think we should delete that and put the reasoning as holding off Hollow Ichigo for a good while. How long did she fight him? I forget how much time each spent in there with Hollow Ichigo during Death-berry's Visored training. Well it certainly was a good while I think. And it serves as way better reasoning. Or we can leave the Harribel thing as is and just add on with the Hollow Ichigo reasoning (I did something similar with the profile of Kanan Jarrus)

Bleach defiantly used to have a lot of bad profiles, but that's expected from such a big series with so many people. Toshiro must have just been missed until now

Amlad22 said:

Bleach defiantly used to have a lot of bad profiles, but that's expected from such a big series with so many people. Toshiro must have just been missed until now

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That and few people seem to give a damn about him. I'm not saying that there's a Hitsugaya bias here, just an indifference.

Also, thinking of upgrading Hitsugaya's stats for the Blood War arc. I don't think he should be too far below the likes of Renji and Rukia. Hell, he's probably in the same league. What do you think Amlad?

Are you talking about his child form? I'm not sure if he's on their level since he got stomped by base bazz-b. I know he didn't have Bankai but his Bankai doesn't make that much of an increase so he still would have lost. I could see him being city level at best but that's it.

I just remembered that he struggled against Bazz whereas Renji fought him for a good while off screen. And yeah, I can see him at 7-B in child form.

Given that LordAizenSama and KuuIchigo are not here to help out with evaluating Bleach threads anymore, you will have to wait for Kkapoios, and he is busy for at least a few days. Bumping the thread does not help to speed things up.

I forgot. Okay then. I'll be patient.

Thank you.

Why do we need Kkapoios on this thread? Cinder was upgraded for creating a storm and so have many other characters so I'm confused at why this thread isn't getting accepted too. Either characters like Cinder get downgraded to multi city block level with Toshiro or Toshiro gets upgraded to large town level

@Amlad22 Why do we need YOUR opinion on this thread.

I'll put it simply, i don't care about other profiles, i don't monitor everything but when i do i want to do it right.So stop comparing irrelevant profiles and present arguments regarding this verse only.

Does Toshiro deserve an upgrade, probably but not by using stuff like "o there were some clouds so this was a full hurricane", he has some pretty good feats which can be calced.

And one more thing which seems that people don't get it, CREATING A STORM IS ENVIROMENTAL DESTRUCTION, not attack potency.

Well, I dunno about other Tōshirō feats. Maybe Soldier Blue or Apple Lord do.

As for the Ichigo and the other lieutenants scaling to him, I don't agree because I think he's clearly stronger with it. Like Kkapoios said, he one-shotted Renji after using it. Grimmjow was casually stomping him and even blocked his Zanpakutō with his hand and used it as a leverage. The only reason Ichigo harmed him was because of Getsuga Tenshō. There are probably other examples. But I think Ichigo is stronger with it.

Actually for Toshiro I think he can be upgraded much further. I believe one of his keys should get upgraded to either "At Least Mountain Level" or "Mountain Level+"

To me at least, it makes absolutely no sense how a key of Rukia, someone who was never captain level until EOS with no feats to suggest how strong she became, and a key of Renji, someone who is consistently only Assistant Captain level for the entire series, are Mountain Level and but yet Toshiro, someone who is a Captain and should be much stronger than them both, isnt.

I think either Toshiro needs to be upgraded or Rukia and Renji need to be downgraded, unless im missing something here