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*RISE OF SKYWALKER SPOILERS* Rey's Page.
- Thread starter Lucas_Carvalho_Santiago
- Start date
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Thanks. To add onto what I was saying, Vader briefly pins him to a wall with his telekenesis.
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If we are talking about the EU or pre-Disney canon, that would be true. However, Darth Vader's potential being lower than Palpatine's due to his injury is no longer canon, even if it is George Lucas' vision that less body = less Force flowing through cells.
Darth Maul's mind was damaged, losing his sanity and memories.
Lords of the Sith says that meditating just after the injury and getting the suit opened the door for insight, and allowed Anakin to perfect his spirit and strengthen his connection to the Force, with no indication that his connection became lower than before the duel in Mustafar. The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary says that Kylo Ren has the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, confirming that Luke and Darth Vader surpassed Darth Sidious.
If we are going by Legends and George Lucas' statement, Anakin's potential after the injury is at 80% of Palpatine', and at twice the potential of Palpatine before the injury.
If we are going by Canon, Anakin just has more potential than either Palpatine or Yoda, and he eventually surpassed Palpatine as the most powerful Sith. So he should scale.
That into account, there is the argument I presented that Palpatine was amped by absorbing the dyad.
Also, believe it or not, but the Rise of Skywalker might have confirmed that Rey is a better pilot than Poe (The ace pilot of the Resistance)
When Chewbaca complained about Poe performing Hyperspace Skipping, Poe's response was: "Well, Rey's not here is she?"
So Accelerated Development for Rey?
Darth Maul's mind was damaged, losing his sanity and memories.
Lords of the Sith says that meditating just after the injury and getting the suit opened the door for insight, and allowed Anakin to perfect his spirit and strengthen his connection to the Force, with no indication that his connection became lower than before the duel in Mustafar. The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary says that Kylo Ren has the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, confirming that Luke and Darth Vader surpassed Darth Sidious.
If we are going by Legends and George Lucas' statement, Anakin's potential after the injury is at 80% of Palpatine', and at twice the potential of Palpatine before the injury.
If we are going by Canon, Anakin just has more potential than either Palpatine or Yoda, and he eventually surpassed Palpatine as the most powerful Sith. So he should scale.
That into account, there is the argument I presented that Palpatine was amped by absorbing the dyad.
Also, believe it or not, but the Rise of Skywalker might have confirmed that Rey is a better pilot than Poe (The ace pilot of the Resistance)
When Chewbaca complained about Poe performing Hyperspace Skipping, Poe's response was: "Well, Rey's not here is she?"
So Accelerated Development for Rey?
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The 80% part is still canon, it was retained by Disney.
Also, potential and power are not the same thing. Anakin/Vader DOES have more potential than Yoda or Palpatine or basically everyone else in the entire saga but he lost a part of his power after Mustafar and thus, he never achieved his full potential. Putting him to High 7-A doesn't really bothers me though since it is stated he still immensly powerful and even Palpatine remaked that even with all his injuries, Vader became more powerful than he could imagine to the point of saying his abilities were "unaparalled" (it was in Lords of the Sith i think).
Note : i kind of remember that Vader was able to stop an AT-AT with one hand and started to tear it apart with his telekinesis. And he also used Force Stasis (what KR used in TFA to stop the laser shot from Poe) to freeze two Inquisitors at the same time.
Also, potential and power are not the same thing. Anakin/Vader DOES have more potential than Yoda or Palpatine or basically everyone else in the entire saga but he lost a part of his power after Mustafar and thus, he never achieved his full potential. Putting him to High 7-A doesn't really bothers me though since it is stated he still immensly powerful and even Palpatine remaked that even with all his injuries, Vader became more powerful than he could imagine to the point of saying his abilities were "unaparalled" (it was in Lords of the Sith i think).
Note : i kind of remember that Vader was able to stop an AT-AT with one hand and started to tear it apart with his telekinesis. And he also used Force Stasis (what KR used in TFA to stop the laser shot from Poe) to freeze two Inquisitors at the same time.
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Mmh guess i made a mistake. Though it doesn't change the fact that i highly doubt Vader surpassed Palpatine at any moment of his life.
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So what is it gonna be about him ?
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@ByAsura
In the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary , it describes Anaknin as "the most powerful Sith". In Talkie , Sidious tells Vader that his powers are unparalled.
@ArkhamDC06
The 80% statement comes from RotS DVD commentary right? This means that it is considered Legends just like the novelization and any behind the scene documentary.
In the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary , it describes Anaknin as "the most powerful Sith". In Talkie , Sidious tells Vader that his powers are unparalled.
@ArkhamDC06
The 80% statement comes from RotS DVD commentary right? This means that it is considered Legends just like the novelization and any behind the scene documentary.
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One statement that makes no sense if you really think about it. Like, Anakin was matched by Obi-Wan, and Yoda was as powerful as Sidious, who was superior to Obi-Wan and Luke Skywalker, which would make him the most powerful Jedi alongside Mace Windu.
That comment was referring to Vader, who is inferior to Sidious even if Anakin isn't.
By the way, I'm planning to make a Darth Vader Respect Thread.
That comment was referring to Vader, who is inferior to Sidious even if Anakin isn't.
By the way, I'm planning to make a Darth Vader Respect Thread.
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A couple of canon statements > Retconned statements. As far as i am aware, all the statements about Darth Sidious being more powerful than Darth Vader are retconned in the Disney canon. It is also no longer canonical that Anakin lost potential after his injury.
In Lords of the Sith, it is stated that the anger and hatred from the injury allowed Anakin to perfect his spirit, and strengthen his connection to the Force. So Anakin in his suit is significantly more powerful than Jedi Anakin right off the bat.
Luke being the most powerful Jedi probably refers to him becoming a Jedi Master after the fall of the Empire. Luke's potential is comparable to Anakin so it is not surprising.
In Lords of the Sith, it is stated that the anger and hatred from the injury allowed Anakin to perfect his spirit, and strengthen his connection to the Force. So Anakin in his suit is significantly more powerful than Jedi Anakin right off the bat.
Luke being the most powerful Jedi probably refers to him becoming a Jedi Master after the fall of the Empire. Luke's potential is comparable to Anakin so it is not surprising.
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Mace and Yoda were the most powerful Jedi at the time and Anakin was growing and was going to be come way more powerful than both of them. But since Mustafar...well, he could handle Windu with difficulties but neither Yoda or Sidious.
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True in the EU and G-canon. But in the Disney canon, Darth Vader became the most powerful Sith, indicating he didn't lose much potential to connect with the Force after Mustafar (the loss would be 60% in the G-canon per George Lucas' statement), or that he didn't lose potential at all.
Supplementry materials to the movies (origin of the statement that Sidious>Vader) are not considered canon by Disney, and since they are Legends they are retconned.
While I agree that it is a common belief among fans that Sidious is stronger than Vader, this doesn't seem to be supported by the Disney canon and is in fact outright contradicted by it. Can you provide Disney canon statements that Sidious is stronger than Vader? I tried to search for them but could only find the EU or George Lucas quotes referenced.
It is likely that Vader was holding back, so I don't think the surpassal is definitive by then.
If her ridiculous skillset is explained by the dyad thing, then this will also apply (i.e. quickly learn whatever Ben learned, whether it be mind reading, lightsaber dueling, swimming, or piloting).
Supplementry materials to the movies (origin of the statement that Sidious>Vader) are not considered canon by Disney, and since they are Legends they are retconned.
While I agree that it is a common belief among fans that Sidious is stronger than Vader, this doesn't seem to be supported by the Disney canon and is in fact outright contradicted by it. Can you provide Disney canon statements that Sidious is stronger than Vader? I tried to search for them but could only find the EU or George Lucas quotes referenced.
It is likely that Vader was holding back, so I don't think the surpassal is definitive by then.
It is not like she had much time to develop her top tier talent. You could say that her talent had... accelerated development.LordWhis said:
If her ridiculous skillset is explained by the dyad thing, then this will also apply (i.e. quickly learn whatever Ben learned, whether it be mind reading, lightsaber dueling, swimming, or piloting).
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You just have to read Lords of the Sith, where he's having a hell of a time fighting, while Vader is incredibly tired, and Sidious literally drags freighters out of the sky. In the canon comics, Sidious figures out Vader's plot to kill him and isn't concerned in the slightest, and he says he could kill Vader directly. There's also the whole Rule of Two that implies Sidious is stronger than Vader
Also, that quote pretty much means nothing. Palpatine constantly loves to throw Vader bones, it's in his character, and Tarki still implies Sidious is the most powerful.
I'm fairly sure Luke is still similar in power, given the Emperor's plan to replace Vader with a stronger apprentice. He was holding back, there's no denying that, but Luke knew about this, believed there was good in his father and only gave into his emotions when Vader threatened to take Leia as an apprentice, in which case he obliterated him but still didn't go for the kill.
- Soon after destroying the Jedi, the Emperor had told Vader that he would one day be tempted to kill him. He'd said that the relationship between Sith apprentice and Master was symbiotic but in a delicate balance. An apprentice owed his Master loyalty. A Master owed his apprentice knowledge and must show only strength. But the obligations were reciprocal and contingent. Should either fail in his obligation, it was the duty of the other to destroy him. The Force required it. Since before the Clone Wars, Vader's Master had never shown anything but strength, and so Vader intended to show nothing but loyalty. In that way, their mutual rule was secure.
- Perhaps Vader would attempt to kill his Master one day. Sith apprentices ordinarily did. They must, if they were trained well. An apprentice was unquestioningly loyal until the moment he wasn't. Both Master and apprentice knew this. "But our relationship is different, Master, " Vader had said then. "Perhaps, " his Master had said. "Perhaps." Or maybe self-delusion was part of the training a Master instilled in an apprentice.
Also, that quote pretty much means nothing. Palpatine constantly loves to throw Vader bones, it's in his character, and Tarki still implies Sidious is the most powerful.
I'm fairly sure Luke is still similar in power, given the Emperor's plan to replace Vader with a stronger apprentice. He was holding back, there's no denying that, but Luke knew about this, believed there was good in his father and only gave into his emotions when Vader threatened to take Leia as an apprentice, in which case he obliterated him but still didn't go for the kill.
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Should Rey be upgraded to 4-B? (Due to defeating Palpatine. Or idk)
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What ? No , she shouldn't. 4-B Palpatine is Legends Palp, not the canon version.
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Rise of Skywalker Rey would be around at least 6-C, I suppose.
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In Lords of the Sith, Vader replicated the same freighter feat, so they are portrayed as equals more or less. Plus, the writer of Lords of the Sith said in an interview that Sidious is afraid of Vader's potential and considers him dangerous:
The plot of the comics is to expose Cylo as a traitor in order to eliminate him; Cylo is hard to kill, has a lot of influence, and executing him without a clear reason would alienate the scientist working on the Death Star. Sidious was never going to get weak apprentices with zero Force sensitivity as offered by Cylo. Luke's potential is at Vader's level, so he is the first genuine replacement candidate Sidious had.
That Tarkin quote means that Vader saw no feat from Sidious that made him think Sidious is stronger, nor did Vader think himself or his potential weaker than Sidious. Vader liked to see his relationship with Sidious as that of friendship, so it is not like he was plotting to assassinate him from the beginning or felt the need to fulfill the Rule of Two the typical way. And yes Vader has less knowledge and wisdom than Sidious regardless of raw power, and he still has more to learn in order to be worthy of the Sith legacy.
Almost no one in the galaxy observed Force powers to the point that it became a myth. The "power of the Dark Side" Tarkin is talking about likely reefers to the Sith Empire.
| "Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way." | ||
~ Star Wars Insider 157 - Paul S. Kemp |
That Tarkin quote means that Vader saw no feat from Sidious that made him think Sidious is stronger, nor did Vader think himself or his potential weaker than Sidious. Vader liked to see his relationship with Sidious as that of friendship, so it is not like he was plotting to assassinate him from the beginning or felt the need to fulfill the Rule of Two the typical way. And yes Vader has less knowledge and wisdom than Sidious regardless of raw power, and he still has more to learn in order to be worthy of the Sith legacy.
Almost no one in the galaxy observed Force powers to the point that it became a myth. The "power of the Dark Side" Tarkin is talking about likely reefers to the Sith Empire.
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Vader was extremely tired out from the effort. The fact that the Emperor fears his potential—what he could become instead of what he is—implies Vader isn't even a real threat normally.
That is the plot of these comics, but he only started really suspecting Cylo after he worked with Tarkin. Before this, Palpatine did genuinely task him with creating clones, and while they were weak, that doesn't somehow retroactively make his plan any different. Regardless, he still consistently tries to replace him with a more powerful apprentice.
He didn't say that or imply anything of the sort, you're just making up information that isn't even suggested by the book to fit your narrative. He was still plotting to kill him, it's even a point in the main comic line, so that's irrelevant.
Not by Tarki it wasn't, as this was 14 BBY. The word myth doesn't even show up in the novel, and they were still trying to make people forget on Coruscant. It doesn't, there pretty much was no Sith Empire and we haven't heard any information to suggest Tarkin would know about it.
That is the plot of these comics, but he only started really suspecting Cylo after he worked with Tarkin. Before this, Palpatine did genuinely task him with creating clones, and while they were weak, that doesn't somehow retroactively make his plan any different. Regardless, he still consistently tries to replace him with a more powerful apprentice.
He didn't say that or imply anything of the sort, you're just making up information that isn't even suggested by the book to fit your narrative. He was still plotting to kill him, it's even a point in the main comic line, so that's irrelevant.
Not by Tarki it wasn't, as this was 14 BBY. The word myth doesn't even show up in the novel, and they were still trying to make people forget on Coruscant. It doesn't, there pretty much was no Sith Empire and we haven't heard any information to suggest Tarkin would know about it.
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Funny how the Sidious from canon is somehow nicer than in Legends. In Legends, Palpatine constantly tried to replace Vader, tortured psychologically and sometimes physically, let his training in the Sith ways completely uncomplete and clearly saw him as nothing but a lackey.
In the canon version, he seems to genuinely feels a degree of friendship with Vader, constantly calling him "my friend", speaking about "our Empire" instead of his, gave him many advices to become more powerful and knowledgable in the ways of the Sith and even accepted to give him Mustafar (an entire freakin planet) and before that, he even states he would have give him Naboo, his homeworld, if Vader had ask about it. I also remember that he calls Maul a tragic loss because he was still an excellent warrior but also said that he wasn't the apprentice he wanted and tlaked about Dooku as a mere torpedo while stating that Vader was the apprentice he was hoping for even with his injuries. Seriously, Palpatine in canon is nicer that his Legends version (though of course, he remains a complete monster a bastard) and it's implied he turly cared for Vader...in some very twisted ways but still.
About Cylo, Palpatine wasn't REALLY ploting to kill him, he more likely had this option in the case where Vader would completely disappoint him. It was more of a reason to motivate him than a true plot and he still considered Vader to be superior in the end. I mean, Palpatine had a whole bunch of Inquisitors at his disposal so if he had wanted to cast Vader aside, he would have simply killed him and took one of them as his new apprentice.
Note that i'm just giving some lore informations, i still think that, even if Vader could have become strong enough to surpass his master (and that could have happened even with the armor bt it's a big IF), Palpatine was more powerful.
In the canon version, he seems to genuinely feels a degree of friendship with Vader, constantly calling him "my friend", speaking about "our Empire" instead of his, gave him many advices to become more powerful and knowledgable in the ways of the Sith and even accepted to give him Mustafar (an entire freakin planet) and before that, he even states he would have give him Naboo, his homeworld, if Vader had ask about it. I also remember that he calls Maul a tragic loss because he was still an excellent warrior but also said that he wasn't the apprentice he wanted and tlaked about Dooku as a mere torpedo while stating that Vader was the apprentice he was hoping for even with his injuries. Seriously, Palpatine in canon is nicer that his Legends version (though of course, he remains a complete monster a bastard) and it's implied he turly cared for Vader...in some very twisted ways but still.
About Cylo, Palpatine wasn't REALLY ploting to kill him, he more likely had this option in the case where Vader would completely disappoint him. It was more of a reason to motivate him than a true plot and he still considered Vader to be superior in the end. I mean, Palpatine had a whole bunch of Inquisitors at his disposal so if he had wanted to cast Vader aside, he would have simply killed him and took one of them as his new apprentice.
Note that i'm just giving some lore informations, i still think that, even if Vader could have become strong enough to surpass his master (and that could have happened even with the armor bt it's a big IF), Palpatine was more powerful.
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"Extremely tired" is an exaggeration. Vader grunted from effort and his rate of breathing increased while doing the feat. We don't disqualify Yoda from being Palpatine's equal because he needs to show signs of effort to do lesser feats.
Even if we go with your interpretation about Vader's potential and the position that he didn't live up to it at the time, this just means that Vader eventually surpassed Sidious as the most powerful Sith at a later time, which is something canonically confirmed per the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary.
It is portrayed that Palpatine allowed Cylo to do whatever projects he wants in his free time. If Palpatine was tasking and supervising Cylo with half the projects he did then Cylo wouldn't have managed to grow too influential under the emperor's nose. Replacing Vader with genetically-engineered cyborgs who can't use the Force wasn't Palpatine's idea, it was something Cylo offered during the events of the comics.
<<Perhaps Vader would attempt to kill his Master one day. Sith apprentices ordinarily did. They must, if they were trained well. An apprentice was unquestioningly loyal until the moment he wasn't. Both Master and apprentice knew this. "But our relationship is different, Master, " Vader had said then.>> Personally, I don't recall Vader planning to kill Palpatine until he met Luke.
Han Solo was 19 years old who lives in a core world in 14 BBY, but he regards Force-using Jedi as mythological figures. Coruscant is the most likely place for lay people to be aware of and encounter Jedi, but this doesn't apply for the rest of the planets whose populations are extremely unlikely to encounter a Jedi in their lifetime. If most people are ignorant of the Jedi then they are more likely to be ignorant of the Sith. As far as I am aware the Death Star isn't a Force power, so "power of the Dark side" sounds like a reference to the empire as a whole.
Even if we go with your interpretation about Vader's potential and the position that he didn't live up to it at the time, this just means that Vader eventually surpassed Sidious as the most powerful Sith at a later time, which is something canonically confirmed per the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary.
It is portrayed that Palpatine allowed Cylo to do whatever projects he wants in his free time. If Palpatine was tasking and supervising Cylo with half the projects he did then Cylo wouldn't have managed to grow too influential under the emperor's nose. Replacing Vader with genetically-engineered cyborgs who can't use the Force wasn't Palpatine's idea, it was something Cylo offered during the events of the comics.
<<Perhaps Vader would attempt to kill his Master one day. Sith apprentices ordinarily did. They must, if they were trained well. An apprentice was unquestioningly loyal until the moment he wasn't. Both Master and apprentice knew this. "But our relationship is different, Master, " Vader had said then.>> Personally, I don't recall Vader planning to kill Palpatine until he met Luke.
Han Solo was 19 years old who lives in a core world in 14 BBY, but he regards Force-using Jedi as mythological figures. Coruscant is the most likely place for lay people to be aware of and encounter Jedi, but this doesn't apply for the rest of the planets whose populations are extremely unlikely to encounter a Jedi in their lifetime. If most people are ignorant of the Jedi then they are more likely to be ignorant of the Sith. As far as I am aware the Death Star isn't a Force power, so "power of the Dark side" sounds like a reference to the empire as a whole.
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Fine, but he was still tired. Yoda is incredibly old, using the force physically taxes him, Vader here was young, had pain suppressors, and the Rogue One guide confirms he was healing himself previously to an extent. Sidious was also holding back throughout the entire novel.
I don't care about the aprentices, it's not even entirely about them, Palpatine still had plans to replace Vader with someone stronger. Also, Vader calls out Palpatine, saying he'd be quick to replace him if any of them had succeeded.
I didn't say was planning to before, and that's, again, completely irrelevant.
Han grew up on Corellia, an industrialized world where even emigration is completely and totally controlled in 13 BBY. By the way, he knows about the force, he just believes it's a parlor tricks, meaning he thinks it's all a myth, not just the Sith.
- Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.
I don't care about the aprentices, it's not even entirely about them, Palpatine still had plans to replace Vader with someone stronger. Also, Vader calls out Palpatine, saying he'd be quick to replace him if any of them had succeeded.
I didn't say was planning to before, and that's, again, completely irrelevant.
Han grew up on Corellia, an industrialized world where even emigration is completely and totally controlled in 13 BBY. By the way, he knows about the force, he just believes it's a parlor tricks, meaning he thinks it's all a myth, not just the Sith.
- Han: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
- LUKE: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
- HAN: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
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Yoda is not Palpatine's equal tho? He's just the guy who comes the closest to matching him. But in Legends specially the text makes it extremely clear that Yoda never stood a chance against Palpatine and could never, ever defeat him.
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What evidence suggests they're not equal? I've literally only heard statements that they are.
They don't say Yoda's mastery over the Force was weaker than Palpatine's in RoTS, just that he would lose due to the Sith Order adapting their skills to fight the Jedi, while the latter were planning on fighting an idential war to the last one.
They don't say Yoda's mastery over the Force was weaker than Palpatine's in RoTS, just that he would lose due to the Sith Order adapting their skills to fight the Jedi, while the latter were planning on fighting an idential war to the last one.
- It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just—didn't—have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi—The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, th at hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...
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Wasn't it stated a ton that Sidious was too powerful for Yoda to best himself? I do agree Yoda's close tho
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I agree but many statements outright claim that Sidious is outright stronger then Yoda (I can link some respect threads later if you'd like)?
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Fair
Wgat do you think we should do with Kylo and Rey's empowering Sidious? Some raised the idea of putting them as half of his power (which I'm not big on but hey)
Wgat do you think we should do with Kylo and Rey's empowering Sidious? Some raised the idea of putting them as half of his power (which I'm not big on but hey)
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This is missing the point of the Force Dyad completely.Hellbeast1 said:
It's a consistent thing throughout Star Wars that multiple Force-Sensitive beings working in tandem generate a result that is obviously greater than the sum of their parts. To say nothing of particularly close individuals having great Force connections that enable them to do great things (See Luke and Leia, Jacen and Jaina in Legends)
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@Matt
So what do you suggest?
So what do you suggest?
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If you read my comment you'd notice I wasn't suggesting it Matt
I also find it odd you chose to bring up Legebds
But aside from that I can agree
I also find it odd you chose to bring up Legebds
But aside from that I can agree
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Can someone link the feat where Vader survived the fragmentation of a small moon?
