*RISE OF SKYWALKER SPOILERS* Rey's Page.

[ArkhamDC06]

Luck100 It's not really consistent with what he wants at the end of the movie. I mean, his final goal was to use Rey as a hive mind for him and the spirits of all the Sith so she could success him at the head of a new Empire. Kylo would have been of no use for him afterwards (assuming he would have been in control of Rey's body and that the ritual wouldn't have only made her fall to the DS and turning her into Dark Rey acting as an avatar of the Sith).

 

[Luck100]

I don't think he would be in Rey mind but in her spirit. She would be aware of what she doing but now in a pure evil form. But in the end Palpatine discovered the dyad in the force and use it in his favor.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

That's what i had in mind. And yeah, Palpatine abandonned his idea when he saw that he could use them to recover his power.

 

[Naitez]

Don't forget that Palpatine was behind Snoke, who wanted to kill Rey which is the opposite of what Palpatine wanted.

 

[Luck100]

But Snoke was only a challenge to rise a new sith.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Honestly, i don't know what Snoke was designed for. Yes, he was used by Palpatine as a way to corrupt Ben and rule the FO but aside from that...maybe he ultimately developped his own will and somehow tried to "overthrow" Palpatine or something like that. We don't even know what he is. He could be a clone of Palpatine or even a clone of Plagueis.

 

[ByAsura]

It's implied by the Visual Directory that he imposed traits on and influenced him from afar, such as giving him a one-track mind that lead to his death against Kylo and Rey.

 

[Hellbeast1]

But why would he want him to kill Rey

 

[ByAsura]

Maybe they just made it seem that way, he didn't kill her when he had the chance, after all. Basically, he was only meant to be a final test for Ben.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Probably. Given that he manipulated Ben to turn him to the Dark Side, he probably wanted to see if Ben would have been able to do what Vader couldn't do (although Vader wasn't able to do ti mostly because of his injuries).

Talking about Vader, there is something interesting i red about him. According to TV Tropes, the canon Vader never lost his potential or even his power like in Legends (where his potential was weakened due to his injuries). As seen with Maul, cybernetics generally weaken an individual's connection to the Force but Vader still has the same potential and level of power he had before his injuries (probably because of that little detail about being born from the Force itself as the Chosen One). The reason why he wouldn't (and couldn't) use it isn't because his power was weakened but because of his injuries as the Dark Side of the Force is very costly and has great toll over a healthy body, wich is...well, something Vader doesn't have anymore). That means that with his injuries and his cybernetics, he couldn't use all the power he still has without being endangered (like Force lightning for example). In other words, Vader still has the same potential and the same power than before his injuries but because of said injuries, he cannot use his full power without risking to die in the effort.

Again, this comes from TV Tropes but the website is generally very well-informed.

 

[ByAsura]

According to one of the writers (in reference to Vader), despite Maul's injury he was still very strong with the force, implying his power wasn't too diminished.

By the way, I found a statement saying that Kirak (who Vader is somewhat inferior to) was even more powerful than Kenobi.

• Vader sets his sights on a Jedi who's avoided Order 66…a Jedi Master who's long lived in seclusion…a Jedi more powerful than any Vader has faced before…

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The way i see it, Maul is more of a lightsaber guy. He is powerful with the Force (he gives a massive Force push to Obi-Wan when the latter cuts Savage's arm in 5x01) but he never really developped his Force abilities beyond regular uses (like moving objects and persons or Force Choke them). In comparison, he's extremely skilled with a lightsaber. I mean, he was able to overpower Obi-Wan almost right after he got his legs back even if he hadn't practiced lightsaber fight for ten years and Obi-Wan had plenty of time to practice and fight very experienced opponents like Ventress and Grievous. Granted, Obi-Wan wasn't at his best but this is still extremely impressive, especially since Maul was able to best Ventress at the same time (and Ventress WAS in excellent shape).

Kirak is a pretty cool and impressive character. And he effectively seemed above most Jedi in the canon, probably because he went beyond the regular Jedi teachings since he had left the Order for a long time. Wich only makes Vader's victory over him even more impressive considering Vader didn't have a lightsaber and just had his suit put on him, meaning he still struggled with his new "body".

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Darth Vader didnt surpass Palpatine.

This is made clear to us in Dark lords of the Sith

Vader>>>>Anakin in ROTS

but he still had not reached Palpatine's level.

 

[Revan_Laha]

So what are the conclusions? Is High 7-A coming back?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well, nobody seems to really object this by now (though i guess that if someone wants, he can). Personnally, i'm not objecting it.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Even if we assume that he didn't surpass Palpatine in Lords of the Sith, which is ambiguous seeing that Palpatine almost died twice while holding back, Vader would still have 15 years to surpass him. My position is that Vader surpassed Sidious, and that Sidious was buffed beyond his normal strength from absorbing the dyad, but we should let the novelization in March be the judge.

So there are a couple of dumb weaknesses added to Xyston-class Star Destroyers to lower the stakes:

• 1- They can't activate their shields in planetary atmosphere, despite spending most of their time there (we see them get destroyed inside the atmosphere of other planets)
• 2- They can't tell which way is up without an external navigation tower.

Do these weaknesses apply to other Star Destroyers and large ships? Are these weaknesses exclusive to Xyston-Class (weird that the largest fleet ever made in the galaxy didn't invest in better tech)? Do we dismiss them as plot-induced stupidity?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The shield thing is apparently due to Exegol's atmosphere. This is rather dumb but we can give ONE minor excuse for this by saying that the planet was one of the Sith homeworld. And considering the Sith's tendency to experiment with the Force, it could be due to the fact that the planet's athmosphere has been dramatically altered by the Dark Side, wich is something much more powerful and dangerous than anything ship's shields could take. Same thing for the navigation tower (i think this is actually explained in the movie).

But yeah, i don't know about those ships on other planets. Some say they're FO ships so different than Palpatine's fleet but this is still dumb.

"Do we dismiss them as plot-induced stupidity ?" Do we really have another choice considering that we almost have no explanations and that those we do have are really weak ?

 

[Revan_Laha]

So from this thread, I have arrived to the conclusion that Darth Vader will be at High 7-A

Attack Potency: Large Mountain level (Created a forcefield that shielded him from Photon Torpedoes. Somehow inferior to Darth Sidious)

Character would scale to him are old Ben Kenobi, Rebels Ashoka Tano, Return of the Jedi Luke, and Rebels Darth Maul (with a "likely")

 

[Hellbeast1]

I don't think we're going with that

 

[Catalyst75]

What about the Ones? I've never seen them come up in regards to scaling canon characters.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Even if we assume that he didn't surpass Palpatine in Lords of the Sith, which is ambiguous seeing that Palpatine almost died twice while holding back, Vader would still have 15 years to surpass him. My position is that Vader surpassed Sidious, and that Sidious was buffed beyond his normal strength from absorbing the dyad, but we should let the novelization in March be the judge.

There is no evidence of Vader Surpassing Palpatine, it's head canon and assumption until we get solid proof.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I provided multiple ones above, but the most straight-forward one is that the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary calls Darth Vader "the most powerful Sith", which means he became more powerful than Darth Sidious.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The problem with that statement (wich also appears in Fallen Order) is that nobody, even in the Empire, knew that Palpatine was a Sith until ROS. Only Tarkin and a very small group of people (like Mas Ameda) and of course Vader knew about Palpatine's true nature. Outside of these, everybody thought Palpatine simply was a normal dude.

On the other hand, everybody knew about Vader's powers and the fact that he used a lightsaber. And even if some weren't really sure about it, there were numerous rumors about his strange powers and his weapon, suggesting a connection to the Sith, wich was only supported by the fact that he massacred the Jedi. Plus, the Emperor very rarely appeared in public (and mostly used a hologram for when he did) while Vader was basically the very face of the Empire, to the point some actually thought he was the true leader while the Emperor was a puppet.

That statement isn't really an official thing to say "Vader > all the other Sith including Palpatine", it's simply based on the fact that Vader was the only person considered as a Sith since nobody knew about Palpatine being one until ROS and he was the most well-known person in the Empire.

 

[Naitez]

Did we talk about Rey shooting Force Lightning out of nowhere just by being very angry? Wasn't it established that it's a skill that has to be taught or refined in order to use?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah well apparently, being the grand-daughter of one of the most powerful Sith lords in history gives you privilegies. That or this movie doesn't really care about the lore (but no, it can't be that...sarcastic mode activated).

 

[Naitez]

I bring that up because I question while I could go to Wookiepedia to see the mechanics of Force Lightning, it's too messy and convoluted, and there are two main continuities that treat the force differently. I would rather have someone who is more versed in Star Wars tell me how it worked in previously established canon because what Rey did here doesn't look like it makes sense. We talk about feats here a lot, but I think the worst ones are those that flagrantly break established rules.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well, unless you're very powerful and well-versed in the Dark Side, it takes time to master Force Lightning. In TCW, Savage and Maul couldn't use it, likely because they lack the proper taining and knowledge and while Ventress was indeed trained by Dooku as a real Sith apprentice and not a mere weapon (he calls her his assassin but he specifically trained her as a Sith Apprentice), she couldn't use it because she lacked the power and the knowledge to do so. It's literally the Dark Side turned into pure energy so unless you're really powerful or so evil you're literally sweating Dark Side like Sidious, it's impossible to have access to it unless you train.

I guess she can do this because she is from Palpatine's bloodline.

 

[Hellbeast1]

PLUS doesn't Mace do it to Palos in ROTS

We know lightsabers reflect Dark Lightning

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, lightsabers can deflect FL. Of course it depends on the power of the force-wielder using Lighting. Windu has all the difficulties of the world to deflect Sidious's lightning (and it's more than possible than Sidious was holding back simply to look weak in front of Anakin. I mean, Yoda himself had huge difficulties to contain his power later).

 

[Hellbeast1]

Yoda was using Tutaminis tho not his lightsaber

There's also no implication I know of Palpatine threw the fight in canon

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, i kow but he still had difficulties and couldn't really absorb lighting.

There's a debate on knowing if Palpatine really tried his best against Windu and really lost or if he was faking the whole act (including the lightsaber part) to look weak when Anakin would come and thus push him to see Windu as a murderer and Palp as a victim. The debate is still ongoing, both in Legends and canon.

My guess is that Palpatine was really defeated in terms of lightsber skills and was indeed trying his best against Windu but he was still faking at least the part where he looked weak because he is much more powerful than Windu in terms of raw Force power. Considering he immediately unleashed a savage barrage of FL against Windu once Anakin chopped his hand off and that aside from his new ugliness he showed no real sign of harm afterward....

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The shield thing is apparently due to Exegol's atmosphere. This is rather dumb but we can give ONE minor excuse for this by saying that the planet was one of the Sith homeworld. And considering the Sith's tendency to experiment with the Force, it could be due to the fact that the planet's athmosphere has been dramatically altered by the Dark Side, wich is something much more powerful and dangerous than anything ship's shields could take. Same thing for the navigation tower (i think this is actually explained in the movie).
But yeah, i don't know about those ships on other planets. Some say they're FO ships so different than Palpatine's fleet but this is still dumb.

"Do we dismiss them as plot-induced stupidity ?" Do we really have another choice considering that we almost have no explanations and that those we do have are really weak ?

IN twilight company i believe they also state that star destroyers cant activate their shields in the atmosphere

 

[ArkhamDC06]

They do.

 

[Catalyst75]

IN twilight company i believe they also state that star destroyers cant activate their shields in the atmosphere

Something about being in atmosphere putting a massive strain on repulsors and engines, from what I've found looking around. On Exegol, the volatility of the atmosphere could also contribute, along with the ships all having far greater volume and mass than the average Imperial Star Destroyer.

I did a calc like that once, elsewhere, but I'm not sure if using a potential energy calculator was the correct formula. I mean, there'd also be potential air resistance for anything moving through an atmosphere, especially something as big as a Star Destroyer (and that command tower).

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Found the statement about Star Destroyer shields in Twilight Company. Apparently most of the power generated by an Imperial I-class Star Destroyer while in atmosphere is used to stay afloat, but the vital equipment still retain shielding.

The deck shuddered again. Verge glanced about, legs gently bowed for balance and lips twisted into a sneer. "This is an Imperial Star Destroyer. All vital equipment is shielded. Even twenty bombs will do nothing."

But that wasn't true. Tabor shook his head, trying to organize his thoughts. Why wasn't it true? Think, Tabor.

"We're in atmosphere," he said, embarrassed at his own urgent tone. "We need full power to stay aloft. Any disruption at all—" Star Destroyers were extraordinary vessels, capable of razing mountains and carrying armies. But their mass was measured in millions upon millions of tonnes, and their energy requirements were vast.

He made an effort to compose himself, to speak in a manner befitting an Imperial captain. "We must withdraw immediately," he said. He tapped his comlink. "Transfer all weapons and auxiliary power—anything we can spare—to the engines. Get us back in orbit.

 

[ByAsura]

Well, unless you're very powerful and well-versed in the Dark Side, it takes time to master Force Lightning. In TCW, Savage and Maul couldn't use it, likely because they lack the proper taining and knowledge and while Ventress was indeed trained by Dooku as a real Sith apprentice and not a mere weapon (he calls her his assassin but he specifically trained her as a Sith Apprentice), she couldn't use it because she lacked the power and the knowledge to do so. It's literally the Dark Side turned into pure energy so unless you're really powerful or so evil you're literally sweating Dark Side like Sidious, it's impossible to have access to it unless you train.
I guess she can do this because she is from Palpatine's bloodline.

Count Dooku, a Jedi at the time, used it accidentally and without knowledge in Dooku: Jedi Lost when he wasn't even as old as Rey. He also uses it as a Jedi in Master & Apprentice.

• A flash of light exploded from the jungle, striking Shenda Mol. She screamed in agony, dropping her blaster and tumbling down the hillside to fall to the ground. [...] Before Qui-Gon could ask what that light had been, the foliage rustled to reveal Master Dooku. "You kill the helpless and brag of it," Dooku said, walking past QuiGon into the underbrush, focused only on Mol. [...] "You think to murder my Padawan merely to fulfill your pitiful ambitions. You find yourself impressive, do you? You know nothing of true power!" Brilliant light flashed again, and again. Qui-Gon still couldn't see it directly, though he could feel his skin prickling and his hair standing on end. The air tasted of ozone. None of that seemed to matter, not when he could hear Mol's wretched shrieks of pain. Then Shenda Mol's cries choked off. For one instant Qui-Gon thought she was dead—but then he heard her moaning brokenly.

There are some people who can do it accidentally and without Sith training.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Mmh haven't red that anyways so i didn't know. So yeah, apparently apparently really powerful people can do it accidentally. Though again you have to be really powerful and Dooku was already much more trained than Rey at this point.

You know what, i wouldn't have been shocked if someone said that Anakin/Vader accidentally used it in the gap between Windu's death and Mustafar (in the Jedi Temple more precisely).

 

[ByAsura]

Dooku was a teenager (or Young Adult) when he first used it, Rey had just trained with Leia and did this by complete accident. It's not like she mastered it.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Never said she did. She never uses it for the rest of the movie (even though i think she could have and that it would have been very useful in some situations).

 

[ByAsura]

I know, I'm just saying it doesn't really shatter any suspension of disbelief for Star Wars.