*RISE OF SKYWALKER SPOILERS* Rey's Page.

[GojiBoyForever]

What are the conclusions and discussions still going on here?

 

[Revan_Laha]

It's still great. I'll make a calc request

 

[ByAsura]

I doubt he actually withstood it. Seems more like he was just floating on one of the debris produced by its awakening.

 

[Revan_Laha]

We should still make Vader High 7-A

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I agree.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So he will get a serious upgrade in the end. I suppose it will be the same thing for other characters like Obi-Wan, Ahsoka or Luke right ?

 

[Revan_Laha]

Yes

 

[LordWhis]

Yoda was weaker than Sidious in ROTS, though a hypothetical prime Yoda may have been a different story.

Same for Dumbledore and Voldemort IMO

 

[Naitez]

If Yoda was weaker, he should have been killed by Sidious the moment he got hit by that Force lightning in RotS.

 

[LordWhis]

He wasn't massively weaker.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I agree. Yoda was seriously weakened by Order 66 and the death of so many Jedi. Sidious on the other hand was at the highest peak of his power, he was successful in every way. The Force was completely unbalanced. The Dark Side was triumphing. Yoda was still a formidable opponent even in these circumstances but he wasn't at his peak.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Showing exertion from sustaining telekinesis is a consistent trope in Star Wars, and it is not the same as being tired. Vader had plenty of energy to kill hundreds of lylek and commit a massacare.

We can't really dismiss definitive canon statements. While some things in the visual guides gets retconned in the following movie (like Luke's spaceship being non-functioning for years), they provide canonical information we should take into account. And there is more than one indication that Vader surpassed Sidious:

• 1- Vader's potential is confirmed to surpass both Palpatine and Yoda, and there is no canonical evidence that Anakin lost his Force potential after Mustafar
• 2- Palpatine was afraid of Vader's potential and considers him dangerous
• 3- Before Luke, Vader considers his powers to be unparalleled
• 4- Vader is the best canonical red lightsaber duelist, even better than Sidious
• 5- Vader received a Force vision where he challenges Sidious to a duel and kills him, before finding Obi-Wan and begging him for forgiveness
• 6- Vader is described to be the most powerful Sith
• 7- Vader is described to be the ultimate instrument of the Dark Side
• 8- Old Luke considers Vader to be the greatest enemy of the Jedi Order

Origin of Star Wars is not really relevant. Disney is not beholden to George Lucas' intent and vision (including the script he wrote for the sequel trilogy), and are going their own direction.

The only one Sidious seriously considered replacing Vader with is Luke, whose potential is equal or greater than Anakin. Sidious did not expect Vader to lose to any of the cyborg weaklings, but if Sidious found someone stronger than Vader then it is likely but that didn't happen before Luke.

Force Drain canonically increases one's connection to the Force in addition to healing/increasing lifespan, so it should be safe to treat TRoS's Palpatine as an amped version of his healthy self.

 

[ByAsura]

This is going to be my last argument because I just couldn't care less any more.

These aren't going to be in perfect order, because I'm going to combine a couple.

• 1. Doesn't mean he surpassed Sidious. The fact that he's constantly putting a leesh on Vader means he's restraining his potential.
• 2. Which is frequently contradicted by Vader speaking of Sidious' powers in awe. For example, in Thraw, Vader tells the titular character that "All the strength of the creature you faced on Atollon pales in comparison with the power of the Emperor", despite seemingly having no knowledge of Bendu.
• 3. Firstly, Lightsaber combat=/=Force mastery. Secondly, I'm calling b.s on that. Sidious has way better feats than Vader, such as instantly taking down three council members, and having a way easier time against Lyleks than him while using a fraction of his powers. Vader has been matched by Karbin, who has Grievous' design but none of the skills he gained from fighting Jedi. Lastly, this is all the justification it gives.

• 4. We don't know that the Kyber Crystal was showing him what he believed could happened, or was just trying to defend itself.

• 5. By a guide, not even in-universe.

• 6. Darth Sidious is also called "the ultimate instrument of the Dark Side" or the "Jedi's greatest enemy", and you know what it's for? Collapsing the entire Jedi Order, creating the Empire, and putting the galaxy into a reign of terror that lasted decades.

Vader says he would've said the same thing if they defeated him. He wasn't expecting or planning on them to become his aprentices, I agree, but he still had plans to directly replace Vader. The Rule of Two basically says that one survives and the other doesn't, so it makes more sense.

This same Luke, who could do absolutely nothing against the Emperor? Also, again, Sidious, at a small fraction of his displayed comparable feats of power in Lords of the Sith.

Palpatine was basically dead here and we only have indication that it restored him.

 

[Revan_Laha]

So what's the conclusion? Shall Vader and co be High 7-A?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I believe so yes.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Sounds like a conclusion yeah. I mean, no one seems really opposite to the idea.

So this would mean High 7-A for : Vader, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka (at least Rebels version), Luke and others who scale like Grievous and Ventress ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's a 7-B feat Vader scales to from the comics.

Scaling from Sidious is 100% a no.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

"Scaling from Sidious is 100% a no." I agree.

 

[Revan_Laha]

What about Kylo and Rey? Would they be High 7-A too?

 

[Revan_Laha]

Also can someone give the link to the High 7-A calc for Photon Torpedoes?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I'm...not sure. For obvious reasons you can't scale them to Vader and co so. Yes Rey briefly "overpowers" Luke in TLJ but this can't be used as a feat because they didn't fight. And from what we know, KR was always weaker than Vader. Considering they're both comparable to each other (except in terms of pure skills, since Kylo had more experience and training), i think it's safe to say they can't. But i'm not really sure.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Final response then I guess. Sorry for cluttering the comments with the arguments

• 1- Vader is well aware of his potential, and considering he had 20 years to achieve it, he probably did.
• 2- Vader wasn't really talking in awe although he respects Palpatine's power, it is more like "If you fail a mission because you tried to rescue your friends you'll just end up pissing off the Emperor who is more powerful than the creature you encountered in Atollon". It doesn't imply Vader believes himself weaker than the Emperor or the mysterious creature known as Bendu. And even if Vader was weaker for years in the beginning, this would be completely compatible with Vader eventually surpassing Sidious before his death.
• 3- Lightsaber combat correlates with Force abilities, since the Force is used to provide precog and enhanced strength/speed. The canonical chart even mentions that Darth Sidious unleashed a dark-side fueled frenzy. Palpatine was having more fun against the lylek, but he had a couple of close calls and was rescued by Vader in one of them, but he did have an easier time when he started to use Force Lightning. Furthermore, Vader was capable of moving faster throughout; Palpatine's speed against the horde of lyleks was described to be "preternatural", and when Palpatine swung at the girl at "preternatural" speed Vader moved at an even faster speed and intercepted his swing. "fraction of his power" is an exaggeration and nothing but a head canon; Palpatine simply didn't use much of his true power, which might be related to him nearly dying twice and not using much of Force Lightning. Vader was demolishing Karbin (who is an upgraded design from Griveous who underwent training, so he is not an inferior version) and considered him nothing but a distraction, however Karbin got a sneak hit while Vader was distracted by the voice of Force ghosts.
• 4- It is a path that Vader chose to reject hence very plausible, and since the Light Side is not associated with illusions it is likely a vision of the future too.
• 5- A canonical guide that we accept canonical information from, and which doesn't contradict existing canon.
• 6- And yet, Vader the Enforcer of the Empire was described as such be reliable sources, which sounds like statements praising his strength as the most dangerous fighter.

I see two options:

1- Accept Palpatine as amped based on the Aftermath book's description of the Force Drain ability, which states that it both heals the user and increases his connection to the Force

2- Reject an explicit canonical statement that Darth Vader reached his potential and surpassed Darth Sidious, and work on the assumption that Palpatine has been this powerful all along

It sounds like the first is the most consistent with the overall Disney canon.

Two months till the novelization.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Just to note for lightsabers combat, Grievous didn't have any Force abilities (his connection to it was even weakened due to being a 99% cyborg) and yet he was capable of fighting Obi-Wan more or less on equal terms without using the Force and managed to defeat him some times and also defeated Adi Gallia and in comics, he defeated and killed a Master Jedi and his apprentic without using his usual cheating traits. So no, it doesn't entirely correlate with Force powers.

Considering the two options we have, the first one seems to be the most consistent yes.

 

[ByAsura]

I just got the Rise of Skywalker visual dictionary. It describes the Dreadnought in The Last Jedi as a precursor to the Sith Star Destroyers, and states that Vader's helmet is plasteel.

Kijimi, the planet that the Star Destroyer blew up, is 9,874 kilometers in diameter.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

By Dreadnought, you mean Snoke's ship or something else ?

Does it have any information on Palpatine ?

 

[ByAsura]

Mandators.

Not that I can find, unfortunately. It doesn't seem to have a page for him, at least.

By the way, the Raddus was previously retired by the New Republic, implying it's an outdated warship. This really shows how massive a threat the New Republic would've been to the First Order had they survived.

The book put this whole hyperspace jumping thing to rest: Vice Admiral Holdo perfectly times a devastating point-blank hyperspace jump so that her massive warship, the three-kilometer long Raddus, intersects with the mass of the Supremacy at lightspeed before her ship fully enters hyperspace. The resulting collision cuts the Supremacy in half.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Ok.

Strange. I mean, it's not a secret that he is in the movie so why not putting informations about him ? In fact, it would have been a good way to add new informations.

I think this is actually a massive flaw of the Sequels. In ROS, it's stated that Palpatine's Sith fleet is 10 000 bigger than the First Order fleet and said fleet (with all the Destroyers having a planet destroyer canon) is matched by the good guys fleet. That means that, from the beginning, the First Order would have been very easily defeated by the NR and that the whole reason for why it didn't happened...is because the NR was busy sleeping (yes, it is exagerrated but still). Wich basically means the Sequels wouldn't have happened had the Republic decided to simply use a finger. Granted, it's probably the reason behind the Starkiller base (can't admit they used the name of one of the best characters of the saga for...this) and yes, i know the good guys's fleet is not the NR fleet but they still called help and they had an answer so....

Interesting.

 

[ByAsura]

Who knows.

Surprisingly, the book says the New Republic had clues that Starkiller Base existed, but the First Order was so good at pretending they only had enough forces to defend the small bloc (as the directory puts it) of star systems.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Ok, i don't want to be considered as a Sequel hater (wich i'm not, i think the Sequels have really good elements, especially Kylo Ren, and i don't really hate TLJ though i do think this is the weakest trilogy and i'll admit i just...despise ROS, wich is by far the worst episode of the saga for me, even more than AOTC) but this is dumb.

 

[ByAsura]

It's likely they didn't know it was a planet-buster, though. It's possible that they just though it was a mining operation, since Ilum (confirmed in the directory) has kyber crystal deposits. It's implied they also didn't know about most of the First Order's treaty violations until they fell upon the galaxy.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah....

Just to note, i went on Wookieepedia and apparently, Ben resurrected Rey not because he was this strong with his Force Healing but because of their link through the yad, wich creates a particular bond that is very different from regular Force abilities.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also can someone give the link to the High 7-A calc for Photon Torpedoes?

The High 7-A calc for Photon Torpedos uses a lot of cross-scaling from scenes tbh. As opposed to the High 7-C calc?

 

[Naitez]

I think the fact that Palpatine had enough resources to create his 10000x bigger than First Order fleet in the Unknown Regions alone is massively dumb in itself.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah. Also.

 

[Luck100]

I think the fact that Palpatine had enough resources to create his 10000x bigger than First Order fleet in the Unknown Regions alone is massively dumb in itself.

In the beginning of the clone wars, the galaxy was in a state of massively demilitarization. So after 3 years of clone wars and another half century of militarization we see that it's not dumb at all. The only thing that's dumb it's exegol as the only planet of the final order.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

If Palpatine really had the means to build a fleet made of thousands of Destroyer, each one having a canon that can destroy an entire planet alone, why did he even bother to use the FO. I get it, he needed time to build it but if he wanted, he could have just build some of them and send them to destroy Hosnian Prime and the other planets.

Besides, where did he find the materials to build all of this stuff ? Not only did he have to build the destroyers, he would have had to build smaller and equally powerful versions of the DS canon and it took more or less 20 years to build ONE ? And how the heck did he managed to hide all of this ? The construction site for only one of those SD would have been huge so for thousands of them ? Most of the FO was unaware of what he was planning (aside from followers like Pryde, a good character btw) but he still has countless officers, troopers, etc, and it would have been impossible to cover all of this without help from the FO in general. Even if Exegol is located in the Unknown Regions, some people must have noticed something, especially if we consider that Palpatine didn't already have buildt some ships before Endor and thus had to build an entire construction site near Exegol and make sure enough material would be brought to the planet.

And yeah, the fact that the FO was buildt only on Exegol, with all these complications, when Palpatine could have just build the fleet anywhere else ?

 

[Luck100]

If Palpatine really had the means to build a fleet made of thousands of Destroyer, each one having a canon that can destroy an entire planet alone, why did he even bother to use the FO. I get it, he needed time to build it but if he wanted, he could have just build some of them and send them to destroy Hosnian Prime and the other planets.
Besides, where did he find the materials to build all of this stuff ? Not only did he have to build the destroyers, he would have had to build smaller and equally powerful versions of the DS canon and it took more or less 20 years to build ONE ? And how the heck did he managed to hide all of this ? The construction site for only one of those SD would have been huge so for thousands of them ? Most of the FO was unaware of what he was planning (aside from followers like Pryde, a good character btw) but he still has countless officers, troopers, etc, and it would have been impossible to cover all of this without help from the FO in general. Even if Exegol is located in the Unknown Regions, some people must have noticed something, especially if we consider that Palpatine didn't already have buildt some ships before Endor and thus had to build an entire construction site near Exegol and make sure enough material would be brought to the planet.

And yeah, the fact that the FO was buildt only on Exegol, with all these complications, when Palpatine could have just build the fleet anywhere else ?

FO must have used the old star destroyers of the Galatic Empire to build the xyston class, that would explain how they have a number so high of star destroyers compared to the First Order that only used "mordern equipment" like the resurgent class and the supremacy the last was a headquarters of the First Order.

The construction site was built under exegol and would be invisible from space.

But Yeah, Palpatine could have built the ship from space docks or in the supremacy similar to the first order.

 

[Naitez]

But if that was the case, why would he have them all underground in Exegol until Kylo Ren came to him?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Luck100 "The construction site was built under exegol and would be invisible from space.", Ok, that i can agree with (considering what kind of planet Exegol is...).

Natse I have an even better question, why did he sent a broadcast to announce his return while he could have just, i don't know, shut his mouth and sent his destroyers to attacks his ennemies by surprise ? I mean, it's rather heavily implied his resurrection wasn't perfectly done and that it had a great toll over his mind like it did on his body but did he really become that dumb ? Are we seriously talking about Darth Sidious, the man who caused a galactic-war, controlled more or less everything and everyone, played the Jedi, the Republic, the Separatists and almost anybody involved in the CW and ruled over the Empire for two decades ?

 

[Luck100]

Because I think that Palpatine needed Kylo to continue the rule of two.