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Rimuru Tempest vs Riven of a Thousand Voices

Why didn't Riven just mindcontrol all the players then? If it only works on one person at a time and can't prevent the attacking group from defeating it, then thats not very impressive mindhack potency...
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
It actually did work on the player, she just didn't opt to destroy their minds since that would be harder.
Click to expand...
The premise of mindhax potency based on Intelligence is wrong. I already explained that I didn't used NLF above so I see no point to resposting this message.
 
Because the game needs to be possible to beat is the answer to most of these why didn't x happen questions

In other words pis
 
As expected it falls down to "it's only a game mechanic so it doesn't count!", but to be fair that's something all game bosses must struggle with here so I won't critisize that specifically.

However as has been said, there has been no proof yet that legitimizes using intelligence as the basis for mindhack potency. Being smart does not make you resistant to mindhax unless you can prove otherwise.

Also have yet to see how the whole "whispers" work on someone who resist's info analysis. Unless that's mindhax too.
 
NeoSuperior said:
Why didn't Riven just mindcontrol all the players then? If it only works on one person at a time and can't prevent the attacking group from defeating it, then thats not very impressive mindhack potency...
Click to expand...
I agree; it looks to me that mind Hax just came from a statement or scaling as its mindhax looks contradicted.

Edit: It looks like she has mindhax but it look weaker than described here.

https://www.destinypedia.com/Rive
 
Rimuru's Fate Manipulation & Probability Manipulation influence something? B), sorry xd, I do not understand how much this goes with the threads of versus.
 
Elizhaa said:
Riven has Acausality Type 4 which grant resistances to all time-related abilities.
Click to expand...
Type 4 Acausality grants that? I don't see it on the page, but I'll take your word for it. (I'm probably just missing it.)
 
Jaw201 said:
Elizhaa said:
Riven has Acausality Type 4 which grant resistances to all time-related abilities.
Click to expand...
Type 4 Acausality grants that? I don't see it on the page, but I'll take your word for it. (I'm probably just missing it.)
Click to expand...
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
 
Uh, right. How about some Rimuru skills through Food Chain? "Attack Reflection", adding that Rimuru has a higher immortality, right? Power Nullification, and Resistance Negation?
 
Elizhaa said:
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
Click to expand...
Where does the resistance to time stoppage come in there? It isn't clear from that description.
 
So as the creator of Riven's profile and the person probably most knowledgeable on how her hax works, allow me to explain how Ahamkara operate. Ahamkara are paracausal entities in Destiny that are able to transform the desires of others into reality as well as manipulate events to their own making.

https://www.destinypedia.com/Anthem_Anatheme

I haven't yet added it to the profile, but the ability to do this is explained above as the Anthem Anatheme. The user is capable of appealing to the most basic desires of any being that comes into contact with it. Even Guardians who have resistance to these abilities like the PC who survived encounters with Oryx and his children still fell victim to Riven's ruse. As Wokistan said earlier as well, she's also directly bargained with Oryx as well as his sister Savathun.

If anyone wants evidence for some of this, I'd be more than happy to provide direct links to the lore where this is found. But as it has been stated, her ability to affect beings even works on those higher than herself in verse.

And of course, these abilities that Riven has can still take affect even after her physical body is gone. Mere bone fragments were all that Eris Morn needed to form a wish which got her out of the Hellmouth.
 
The whole "desire" thing might need further deliberation, however:

  • Mindhax by itself as presented doesn't count unless proven to pierce actual mindhax Resistance of such level, not just equalizing intelligence with mindhax resistance for no good reason
  • Taken fails because, from what I read from the destinypedia, it relies on space-haxing the target to The Darkness first. Rimuru resists, so he does not get teleported to the darkness.
Votes given for those reasons should be annulled because their reasoning was debunked.
 
Yeah I have to say, this whole "Riven can bypass resistance by appealing to desires" is pretty NLF already. It does not matter that she is appealing to desires she is still attempting to manipulate the mind of the target thus has to go through the normal resistances.
 
That's a strawman.

Straw Ma
This is when one person corrupts an opponent's argument into something different, a "straw man" that they set up just to knock it down.

Example:

Person A: Riven's mindhax is stronger than Rimuru's resistance.

Person B: Riven doesn't negate resistance! You're wrong.
 
Wokistan said:
That firstly is not 2-B mindhax, and second of all worse than what Riven can do. Riven could affect Oryx, who was fine sitting in The Darkness itself. Oryx had the potential to corrupt and Take every one of the Vex, who have at least 2 locations of infinite timelines, and he uses The Darkness to do so. He also is right at home in the Ascendant Plane, a realm that automatically destroys the minds of those who lack the ability to manipulate laws to such a degree. Hive Gods already have 4D physiology if they want to, shown by when Dul Incarnu manifested as a 4D wave form.
Riven's mindhax is also faster than thought, while not quite being passive. It's passively already in your mind, but needs to take an action to control you. This should logically take precedence over people who need to register the presence of their opponent then direct a thought their way. (There's also an actually passive component, but it lacks range). Riven can also get around resistances by not being aggressive. It can suggest things already in line with your own desires, causing the wielder to not realize what they've done until they're too late. This happened to the Player Character. They can resist from Oryx and as such, would normally be too hard a mind to penetrate, so Riven instead was subversive in playing the PC right into her hands.
Click to expand...
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
big -snip-
Click to expand...
Again, unless Riven can affect Ciel, Rimuru can't be severely affected. Ciel can detect any external influence, and counter without Rimuru needing to approve and then he'll be able to resist.

And Oryx sitting in the Darkness can't be used as a Mind hax resistance feat, because the Darkness was never trying to corrupt him, so its not like he was being attacked by the Darkness. He was actually reborn from the Darkness, which just provides affinity which just makes it so Oryx isn't affected by the Darkness, that however doesn't mean it creates resistance to the affects of the Darkness when he has never been subject to those effects. (I might be wrong about this, so feel free to provide evidence that shows otherwise)
 
That's not what his page says.

Resistance to Existence Erasure (The Vex could not forsee any futures where they were not destroyed by Oryx), Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Reality Warping, Mind Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Possession (Escaped the clutches of The Darkness without the Tablets of Ruin he usually uses to commune with it unaltered, the same Darkness he calls upon to Take his foes, able to rebuke those such as Akka who can deny truths into becoming lies and his Daughters, who can create and destroy axioms defining the Ascendant Plane. Oryx can invade the Throne Worlds of others and traverse the Sea of Screams, when both Throne Worlds and the Sea of Screams destroy the minds of those who do not obey the logic defining them)
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
That's not what his page says.

Resistance to Existence Erasure (The Vex could not forsee any futures where they were not destroyed by Oryx), Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Reality Warping, Mind Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Possession (Escaped the clutches of The Darkness without the Tablets of Ruin he usually uses to commune with it unaltered, the same Darkness he calls upon to Take his foes, able to rebuke those such as Akka who can deny truths into becoming lies and his Daughters, who can create and destroy axioms defining the Ascendant Plane. Oryx can invade the Throne Worlds of others and traverse the Sea of Screams, when both Throne Worlds and the Sea of Screams destroy the minds of those who do not obey the logic defining them)
Click to expand...
Except when looking at the Grimoire, it doesn't ever say anything about the Darkness manipulating Oryx, it only mentions the fact that he was trapped there. The darkness was never attacking him.

I know what his page says, but can you give me the actual in universe information which shows that?

I looked at Book of Sorrows: XXXIV

Where that describes Oryx as being lost in the deep, but never makes any mention of him being attacked by it while he was there.
 
You should probably wait for Wokistan to reply then. He's had a big part in making his page and is a knowledgable so he would be able to explain it.
 
Even being in the darkness is what does that, and given that the Hive kill one another on a regular basis, that the Ascendant Plane which is an offshoot of The Darkness passively annihilates minds on its own, that his sisters tried to get him stuck there to harm him, that it's outright stated that most Taken don't survive the process, that Oryx was described as having to fight his way out, I don't think the darkness just sat there and did absolutely nothing.
 
I can read the rest of what's come up when I was gone a little later.
 
Wokistan said:
Even being in the darkness is what does that, and given that the Hive kill one another on a regular basis, that the Ascendant Plane which is an offshoot of The Darkness passively annihilates minds on its own, that his sisters tried to get him stuck there to harm him, that it's outright stated that most Taken don't survive the process, that Oryx was described as having to fight his way out, I don't think the darkness just sat there and did absolutely nothing.
Click to expand...
Again, provide something in universe. The Book of Sorrows doesn't make it out to be as if Oryx was being assaulted while trapped in the Deep.

I'm glad I learned that the universe runs on death. It's more beautiful to know. But I'm lost somewhere strange. I think that Savath├╗n and Xivu Arath are trying to steal the tablets from me. They must have cut off my tribute while I was away communing with the Deep... When I get home from my wanderings in the Deep, and I take back my throne, I'm going to have children. That's what I need.

And when Savathun asks Oryx if he was a slave to the Deep(Darkness):

From The Book of Sorrows XLVIII:

"Savath├╗n asks if I am as much a slave of the Deep as my Taken. She asks what price I pay for my power. I am not Taken. The Hive is not the Deep."
 
GalaxianAegis made the Riven file and probably knows more about her than I do, but idk if he's commented here yet.

If you're interested in stuff, the Ishtar Collective site that's linked on the Destiny page is a good repository for the majority of Destiny lore. Fact check or do whatever you'd like.
 
Him not being a slave to the Deep is

  • Not really correct, given how Akka's dead body ***** him over in the end and that's just another link to the Deep
  • Indicative of him retaining his individuality as opposed to being assimilated into the Deep.
His ability straight up works by casting his foe to The Darkness, which causes it to do its thing, warping whoever he Took. He was there, in the middle of the very corruptive power he uses himself, and yet he wasn't consumed by it. There's also how the Ascendant Plane, which is a realm that's basically an offshoot of The Darkness, already has passive law and mind stuff that will **** people over anyways. The Darkness doesn't really need to act to try and corrupt that which is already enveloped in it.

Also check out Shadow Touched. Even going in pools of Taken Blight, doubtlessly inferior to the real Deep, has negative effects on those who are too close.
 
Yet the players didn't immidietly fall over from Riven's "passive" mindhax. If it's passive then you can't also claim that it's PIS at the same time... this is full of contradictions.

And you can throw around "4D" all you want, it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't have proven mindhax resistance (also mindhax ability does not always come with corresponding mindhax resistance) shown to be pierced, providing this ability can even penetrate Rimuru's imaginary barrier and info analysis resistance in the first place.

What is even the mindhax potency of The Darkness? Is it even mindhax or perhaps more something along the lines of curse manipulation? You can't just say "well The Darkness got super strong mindhax, so anything scaling to it can just easily overwhelm other verses without problem!" You need something more concrete than that. You made a scaling chain but we have yet to see what it exactly even scales to.

In theory even a 10-C mindhax-specialized character could win a match against even a 3-A character as long as the 3-A's mindhax resistance is lower than the 10-C's mindhax and the conditions are right, e.g. speed equalized and the 3-A in-character doesn't just kick the planet into oblivion and such things.

Also you are jumping around between possession and mindhax. Which is it?

For possession I want to mention that Rimuru got a skill that Rimuru (and Ciel) can use to seperate anything from himself, including non-physical objects, abstract objects, etc. Spirits and Daemons who can possess bodies are really nothing special in the Slimeverse, at least not on the scale that Rimuru is at with the key for this match.

In other words, be it "whispers" or some sort of "energy", it doesn't matter. Any such "foreign matter", be it material, spiritual, or abstract, gets repelled.
 
4d mindhax bypasses any amount of 3d resistance btw

Also the thing about the players was already explained above multiple times

PIS would be less accurate than saying the plot needs the players to win so they do I suppose

Just a few things I wanted to point out
 
NeoSuperior said:
And you can throw around "4D" all you want, it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't have proven mindhax resistance (also mindhax ability does not always come with corresponding mindhax resistance) shown to be pierced, providing this ability can even penetrate Rimuru's imaginary barrier and info analysis resistance in the first place.
Click to expand...
4D means it's better than any amount of 3D mindhax.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Higher-Dimensional_Existence

"The difference between these characters and those from ordinary space-time reality corresponds to the geometric difference between objects with different numbers of dimensions, such as a two-dimensional square and a three-dimensional cube. This means, it is more than countably infinite, not only quantitatively but also qualitatively. Characters of higher dimensions are often shown to be godlike with respect to lower dimensions, not only because of their superiority in strength but also due to their existence encompassing completely different laws of physics and logic, which are beyond the control of three-dimensional beings."
 
It isn't PIS. The Player Character is one of the strongest beings in the entire verse. They can resist Oryx and his kids for a period of time, which is better than Riven. Riven also did manage to string them along. It just so happens that she wanted to die. I explained this already.

It actually does since we tie hax to resistances, but as I've explained, she gets it due to Oryx, the Taken King's resistances.

The ability to Take is like 8 different abilities, all of which are listed on Oryx's page. Mind manip is one of them. Oryx was going to Take all the Vex and they saw no way that they'd ever overcome him (they can't forsee the Player Character). Bare minimum, that's the total corruption of a trillion timelines. Each Vex also exists in all points in time and space, and yet they can still be forced to linearity when they're Taken.

I'm well aware of this, which was why I was telling nedge that him resisting from a tier 4 as a tier 6 is irrelevant.

It's like 8 different abilities, mindhax being one of them. Riven only has the mindhax portion, her Taking isn't relevant because that's not what she really starts with.

Again, Riven resists power null and can just make him not use that skill, since she's already in his head to start and real subtle about things.
 
Wokistan said:
Him not being a slave to the Deep is
Click to expand...
Individuals of the Light having negative effects from being near sources of the Darkness, makes sense, they are polar opposite, one hinders the other, there is no precedent for that being the case for individuals that aren't of the Light. (Or at least provide one)
 
Wokistan said:
Riven resists power null and can just make him not use that skill, since she's already in his head to start and real subtle about things.
Click to expand...
Ciel can detect any and all external influences regardless of whether or not they are passive. And I believe we came to the conclusion that Ciel can't be Mind Hax'd because you would need to have the relevant tier of Soul Hax to even have the range to reach her to begin with.

Wokistan said:
The ability to Take is like 8 different abilities, all of which are listed on Oryx's page. Mind manip is one of them. Oryx was going to Take all the Vex and they saw no way that they'd ever overcome him (they can't forsee the Player Character). Bare minimum, that's the total corruption of a trillion timelines. Each Vex also exists in all points in time and space, and yet they can still be forced to linearity when they're Taken.
Click to expand...
This has very little meaning since the Vex can't simulate or analyze paracausal beings. So the fact that the simualtion always ended the same way just reiterates that. However, Rimuru does have the ability to analyze paracausal beings. (I'm pretty sure)
 
That all sounds more like a Power Null that turns 4D beings into being 3D beings rather than the abilities affecting 4D beings themselves though.
 
You kinda have to be able to affect 4D beings to turn them into 3D beings...
 
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