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Rimuru Tempest vs Riven of a Thousand Voices

From what I understand the mindhax and/or Taken only works if desires are present. So as long as that point is understood, Rimuru can create a desireless avatar that fights the fight (similar to how he once created his Gluttony Skill into a mindless monster, or Ciel could quickly create a copy of herself comparable to the beginning of her existence as Great Sage which was desireless, and let it fight in auto-battle mode). Then Riven's would have trouble to say the least.
 
If rimuru makes an avatar with no desire why would it try to win

If he wants it to win that's still a desire
 
It would be a conceptual intelligence akin to a inorganic physiology type 2 AI. It'd just follow it's "programming" without any actual desires to it.

Unless you want to tell me that this mindhax even works against actual computer programs.
 
Taken doesn't need desires and even basic desires like "I want to live" or "I want to defeat that space dragon" count for Riven's mind hax.
 
NeoSuperior said:
As I mentioned previously, the mind hax makes no difference even if it works. It gets immdietly countered by Ciel, who is out of reach, through Reactive Evolution.

Take gets resisted.
Click to expand...
Taking is an ontological virus, if Rimuru attempts to analyze it, he will be taken as a result.
 
I will be honest, Rimuru got Mental Immunity in verse as I explained above. Mind Hax is also something people with Ultimate skills in the verse resist since it is a lower ability shown that Clayman mind Hax didn't how on Milim. I honestly feel the desired is overblown here. https://m.imgur.com/a/ykrY27z
 
How do these two things actually work? Are there any feats of them working in stopped time? How fast do they work?

We have been going with the assumption that Riven manages to Blitz Rimuru and I am starting to wonder why that even happened.

Can't Rimuru just win via soulhax too?
 
Elizhaa said:
I will be honest, Rimuru got Menta Immunity in verse as I explained above. Mind Hax is also something people with Ultimate skills in the verse resist since it is a lower ability shown that Clayman mind Hax didn't how on Milim. I honestly feel the desired is overblown here.
Click to expand...
That's a huge NLF considering nothing in Slime even comes close to Riven's mind hax.

@Neo the mind hax was explained by Wok. The less agressive pursuasion is nearly passive and the agressive mind destruction, etc. is thought based. Taking is thought based too and Riven resists time stop.
 
Resisting Timestop doesn't matter. Timestop in Slimeverse restricts various abilities even if it gets resisted and also gives its proficient users a speed amp of 1 million times their usual speed.

Of course if it works, then that's very bad news for the enemy, but even if it doesn't it still has its uses.
 
That's sound to be like NLF is that Riven mindhax will work on desired from a character with mind Hax resistance. It was a boss that was defeated by the player so I don't see why resistance to Mind Hax won't work here as the ability didn't work on the player which had resistance.

I still treat immunity like resistance from the wiki resistance system so there is no NLF from my point.
 
NeoSuperior said:
Resisting Timestop doesn't matter. Timestop in Slimeverse restricts various abilities even if it gets resisted and also gives its proficient users a speed amp of 1 million times their usual speed.
Of course if it works, then that's very bad news for the enemy, but even if it doesn't it still has its uses.
Click to expand...
No that's a restriciton the characters have, not a restriciton placed upon characters from other verses.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
You repeat that a lot like it just shuts down everything. But Riven can via telepathy

Ok so? Riven just mind ***** all of them too for kicks
Click to expand...
If the desire/mind hax don't affect Ciel then Rimuru gets passive resistance to most forms of Mind hax, since Ciel can pull him out of it or resist it in time for Rimuru to snap out of it before anything bad happens.
 
Elizhaa said:
What sound to be like NLF is that Riven mindhax will work on desired from a character with mind Hax resistance. It was a boss that was defeated by the player so I don't see why resistance to Mind Hax won't work here as the ability didn't work on the player which had resistance.
Click to expand...
It actually did work on the player, she just didn't opt to destroy their minds since that would be harder.
 
Why is INTELLIGENCE even used as a reference point for mindhax anyway? That seems to come out of nowhere. High intelligence =/= High mindhax resistance.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Time Manipulation (Riven is capable of existing in realms removed from conventional space and time within the Ascendant Plane and elsewhere in the Dreaming City).
Click to expand...
That doesn't show the feat of being able to resist time stop. Being removed from normal time and space doesn't mean that you can resist the stoppage of time. Can you please provide a quote where Riven is shown to resist Time Stop? (I'm looking for a feat here, otherwise this is NLF)
 
NeoSuperior said:
Why is INTELLIGENCE even used as a reference point for mindhax anyway? That seems to come out of nowhere. High intelligence =/= High mindhax resistance.
Click to expand...
Because the Vex do this through analyzing everything.
 
That has nothing to do with mindhax or seducing someone though. An intelligent person could, for example, easily be seduced or mindcontrolled even if that person is good at analysis. I don't understand how these are connected...
 
I'm going to debunk a claim that Wokistan made at the start of the thread. He claimed that because the Vex, a Nigh-omniscient super computer couldn't analyze the Darkness, which is the source power for Taking, Rimuru therefore wouldn't be able to analyze Riven. However, this is categorically false. The only reason why the Vex were unable to analyze the Darkness or the Light is because they are unable to simulate acausal concepts and entities. However, Rimuru is able to analyze Acausal/paracausal beings, entities, and concepts. So Rimuru would be able to analyze Riven and the Darkness as well. Which puts Rimuru at a significant advantage over the Vex even though the Vex are significantly more intelligent.
 
I think Rimuru should win FRA and because Neo's arguments haven't yet been fully refuted. (The lack of a feat showing Riven being able to resist the stoppage of time puts this match more in Rimuru's favor.)

Note: This is just my opinion, not a vote.
 
Jaw201 said:
I'm going to vote Rimuru FRA and because Neo's arguments haven't yet been fully refuted. (The lack of a feat showing Riven being able to resist the stoppage of time puts this match more in Rimuru's favor.)
Click to expand...
You can't vote in your own thread.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
The Vex can simulate 2-A multiverses with 2.2222....% of their overall capacity and can't understand the Taken at all
Click to expand...
Again, the Vex are unable to simulate or analyze Acausal Beings, concepts, and entities (ie Light, and The Darkness). However Rimuru IS able to analyze Acausal beings, concepts, and entities. So Rimuru is already superior to the Vex in this case, even though Rimuru has lower intelligence.

Edit: I fixed it
 
By the way, how were the players even able to beat Riven? Do they actually just have so high mind-resistances and possession-resistances and/or no desires, or was that just PIS/CIS?
 
Paul Frank said:
>Vex are acasual

>can't simulate acasuals even though they simulate themselves
Click to expand...
They are unable to analyze or simulate Paracausal concepts/entities like the Light and the Darkness, because they can't remove it from their simulations (or rather due to its nature it completely defies cause and effect making it impossible to simulate), so they can't collect any data on it. The only way the Vex were able to simulate their desired future in D2 is because the Travelers Light Burst allowed them to understand Paracausality in more detail, but they are still unable to fully analyze both the Light and the Darkness. Also, it should be stated that the Light and the Darkness both have their own cause and effect, but because they are sentient, they influence the outcomes of events such that the Vex are unable to simulate it.
 
Again, the potency of the mindhax can't just be equalized to intelligence. No one seemed to have addressed this "pesky little issue" yet. And I'd like to know if Riven can even affect the desires of someone with resistance to info analysis? And again, intelligence does not neccessarily correlate to info analysis either, unless backed up by feats that prove that.
 
NeoSuperior said:
Again, the potency of the mindhax can't just be equalized to intelligence. No one seemed to have addressed this "pesky little issue" yet. And I'd like to know if Riven can even affect the desires of someone with resistance to info analysis? And again, intelligence does not neccessarily correlate to info analysis either, unless backed up by feats that prove that.
Click to expand...
Yeah, potency of mindhax never depended on Intelligence but on feats. If Vixen can't mind Hax the Player completely then I am less inclined to be believe it can for Rimuru who could no-sell mindhax which even the antogonist stated all his skills, except his Trump crap - which Rimuru later used Reactive Evolution to come back from, including a mindhax that could overwrite entire personality would not work on Rimuru.
 
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