Rimuru Tempest vs Riven of a Thousand Voices

[Elizhaa]

Why I see claim of 4-D mindhax when Oryx, the Taken King which is the strongest characters, in my opinion, in the verse is not even 4-D?

I also don't see 4-D characters at all:https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Destiny so this 4-D hax looks like NLF here.

Unless, there is better evidence for it then evidnece and vote from 4-D hax should be null.

 

[GLHF22]

Rimuru can one shot from Imaginary space, so basically Roven mindfuk Rimuru or kill or anything, His true body can even disconnecf His other bodies, and Absorbs Roven From Imaginary space

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Why I see claim of 4-D mindhax when Oryx, the Taken King which is the strongest characters, in my opinion, in the verse is not even 4-D?
I also don't see 4-D characters at all:https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Destiny

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Higher-Dimensional_Existence

" It should be noted that having higher-dimensional power does not mean the character has a higher-dimensional existence, nor does higher-dimensional movement or immeasurable speed, but some of these do mean that such characters can contend with these beings. "

 

[Jaw201]

The argument that Oryx is 4D because he "corrupted" over a "trillion" timelines, because the Vex could only see a future where they were destroyed by him, doesn't work because the Vex cannot analyze or simulate events involving Paracausal Beings, entities, and concepts (They are unable to simulate or analyze the Darkness and Light because they are cosmic forces that directly influence Cause and effect, making it impossible for them to simulate beings connected to these forces). So in that case, that feat doesn't make Oryx a 4-D existence.

Which means, Riven still needs to be able to pierce Rimuru's resistances because she hasn't been shown to affect 4-D individuals.

 

[Elizhaa]

The argument that Oryx is 4D because he "corrupted" timelines, because the Vex could only see a future where they were destroyed by him, doesn't work because the Vex cannot analyze or simulate events involving Paracausal Beings, entities, and concepts.

Corrupting timelines would be space-time hax not really 4-D; it could easily be Causality Manipulation around best.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

He also is right at home in the Ascendant Plane, a realm that automatically destroys the minds of those who lack the ability to manipulate laws to such a degree. Hive Gods already have 4D physiology if they want to, shown by when Dul Incarnu manifested as a 4D wave form.

I was referring to this.

 

[Jaw201]

Corrupting timelines would be space-time hax not really 4-D; it could easily be Causality Manipulation around best.

Yea, but the claim that Oryx even has the ability to do that and wasn't just a result of his Acausal status is still false.

 

[Elizhaa]

The argument that Oryx is 4D because he "corrupted" timelines, because the Vex could only see a future where they were destroyed by him, doesn't work because the Vex cannot analyze or simulate events involving Paracausal Beings, entities, and concepts.

Corrupting timelines would be space-time hax not really 4-D; it could easily be Causality Manipulation around best.

Wait is there proved that he corrupted timelines? and Oryx, the Taken King got Acausality (Type 5) so of course Vex can't see it future since it exist outside of Causality

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

• Examples: Outer Gods (Cthulhu Mythos), Daedric Princes (The Elder Scrolls)

 

[Elizhaa]

4-D hax doesn't look legit to me. By the logic of 4-D hax above, a lot of Characters with a Time manipulation feat would have 4-D hax

 

[Jaw201]

Hive Gods already have 4D physiology if they want to, shown by when Dul Incarnu manifested as a 4D wave form.

Can you provide a further explanation for this? Just because she could do it doesn't mean that Oryx could do it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Hive Gods already have 4D physiology if they want to, shown by when Dul Incarnu manifested as a 4D wave form.

Can you provide a further explanation for this?

It would needed more proof as they are not 4-D if it not one their profiles and Higher-Dimensional Existence required more proofs than this. If they were truly 4-D, then they would be Low 2-C at least.

 

[NeoSuperior]

For some reason it feels like this thread could be turned into a book or a play or an Ace Attorney game... all these plot-twists and plot-turns! Starts off like an easy win for Rimuru with people viewing Rimuru's win as an "obvious result", but then it changes when suddenly the mind hax and possession hax appears! And then the votes stream in and the grace period starts. But just when the end with the turn-around victory for Riven seemed almost uncontestable it turns out that said victory might not be so certain after all and layer for layer the advantages for Riven get denied...

How does it continue? That's for YOU to decide!

Oh damn that was cringy...

 

[Jaw201]

So can we come to the conclusion Oryx isn't a 4-D existence? For the reason that it isn't on his profile, and it certainly will need a better justification then what has already been given, if I have been reading the posts correctly.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Let Woki respond to your arguments before reaching a conclusion.

 

[NeoSuperior]

By the way, which one of the P&As on Riven's profile refer to the "Taken" ability?

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean 4-D Hax or existence looks heas-cannon right about now, unless there is better evidence. Possession and Mind Manipulation arguments and Taken -akin to space/BFR hax-seems to ignore Rimuru's resistance for these abilities.

 

[The_Causality]

@Elizha I clearly don't care about this thread but corrupting a Timeline is indeed 4-D.

 

[Jaw201]

@Elizha I clearly don't care about this thread but corrupting a Timeline is indeed 4-D.

Except he isn't able to do that, the Vex cannot correctly simulate or analyze Paracasual beings, so that is the reason why they saw no other future besides one where Oryx took them.

 

[Wokistan]

The thing is, corrupted timelines were seen in the game. Alternate heroic paradox takes you to one. The Vex saw no way that they could ever defeat him, and that was what he was doing. The power of The Darkness has the capacity to corrupt it all.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizha I clearly don't care about this thread but corrupting a Timeline is indeed 4-D.

It need more proof like what does corrupt mean, in my view. Even if it was true, then, it doesn't mean all other hax are 4-D.

 

[Wokistan]

Does in his case, because basically all his powers are offshoots of Taking and those that aren't are 4D on their own, also Hive Gods can be 4D

 

[The_Causality]

@Japw It isn't important in my case, i just fix some mistakes about Cosmology, not about this battle

About the battle itself, both side seem to make some headcannon so retract my vote for now.

 

[Wokistan]

Individuals of the Light having negative effects from being near sources of the Darkness, makes sense, they are polar opposite, one hinders the other, there is no precedent for that being the case for individuals that aren't of the Light. (Or at least provide one)

Cabal in that first mission with the Taken Blight. Note that Taken aren't exactly hurt by the presence of Light (unless you shoot them which isn't really the same) so I don't think your whole "opposites harm one another" deal is really right. The PC'd passively kill nearly everybody if that was the case.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Tfw Woki ninjas your evidence with a quicker comment.

Pepehands

 

[Wokistan]

As for what abilities:


I know the file is huge, but you can still alleviate most of that issue with some control + F.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

To elaborate on the link that Woki sent:

Dul Incaru, daughter of Savathun, appears in the form of a 4-Dimensional Waveform from her Throne World. This implies that the true nature of the Hive in their Throne Worlds as well as the Ascendant Plane itself is that of a 4D space.

Of course, Dul Incaru is one of the weaker members of the Hive Pantheon. She would definitely be inferior to Oryx's prominent children than Crota as well as the Daughters. This scales to the main trio of Xivu Aurath, Savathun, and Oryx as well.

 

[Jaw201]

The thing is, corrupted timelines were seen in the game. Alternate heroic paradox takes you to one. The Vex saw no way that they could ever defeat him, and that was what he was doing. The power of The Darkness has the capacity to corrupt it all.

Yes, because they couldn't ever simulate him to figure out how to win against him. However, Pantopes finally figured a small bit out about paracausality in Destiny 2, and that was how they were finally able to come up with the Vex's win condition. But prior to that, they had to invite you into the fault of glass in order to prevent the entire Vex Collective from being Taken, the fact of the matter is that the Vex have trouble simulating and coming up with counter measures for Paracausal Entites, concepts, and beings before Pantopes learns more about paracausality in Destiny 2.

 

[Wokistan]

All the hive abilities spawned from the main Hive trio at some point. None of the offspring have anything that the main 3 don't, and given how they kill one another all the time and get each other's powers by killing it's basically impossible for that to not tie back to him in some way.

Ascendant realms are established as 4D spaces as well, with time being created alongside all the other stuff.

 

[Wokistan]

You'll also note that Oryx was dead during COO, and that Panoptes existed back when he was alive. Vex have paracausal things on their own, and have studied Oryx before. Hell, Quria even figured out how the Sword Logic worked. Oryx himself was another issue entirely, but them not being able to figure out much about him besides "none of our stuff will do anything to this guy" doesn't exactly counter that even random taken that weren't even him were corrupting timelines in their area.

 

[Elizhaa]

Does in his case, because basically all his powers are offshoots of Taking and those that aren't are 4D on their own, also Hive Gods can be 4D

If I am honest, I don't know but the topic definitely need a revision to be finalized. It seems like it is contradicted if lower being can hurt thems without bring 4-D or Tier 2. Likewise, if the 4-D Hax come from this point then it would be cherry picking if the evidence is not even substantial enough to be 4-D exitence ; also I don't believed it even substantial enough to be High 3-A as the tier will be revised to removed higher D statements.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm in the process of upgrading them to tier 2 Elizhaa.

How is that cherry picking at all?

That doesn't affect anything here.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Referring to someone by their old username is the ultimate power move

 

[Wokistan]

I didn't even notice that, whoops

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Destiny revisions are currently on hold due to an afk Azzy, although we have evidence we can bring forth here as needed. Really just need to know what's required for convincing.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, if 4-D is legit, Riven take this i guess

 

[Wokistan]

He's said he's not like opposed to the concept of tier 2 destiny or whatever and would be open to just agreeing if he saw something that convinced him it was valid, also that he'd try and get to it this week.

Revisions for this verse just generally take a long time.

 

[Elizhaa]

I'm in the process of upgrading them to tier 2 Elizhaa.How is that cherry picking at all?
That doesn't affect anything here.

I said if they have 4-D Hax from a Higher-Dimensional Existence statement not accepted for a tier then it would be cherry picking to accept the Hax as 4-D, in my view.

I never that you did but I definitely saw people do it CRTs where the motto, in view, is: Keep the Tiers los but keep the Hax (Usually Higher-D) high even when there are enough evidence for Tier upgrade but it usually refuted to make the character stronger in it tier.

 

[Wokistan]

The statement actually isn't even disputed. He was disagreeing with Throne worlds being large enough, not them being 4D. He accepted that a really long time ago.

Yeah that is a thing some people do, but here it's just by happenstance because their actual AP was questioned way more than their somehow more blatant abilities.

 

[Elizhaa]

4-D Hax does affect the arguments here. If I am being honest, by the oryx corruption's logic, I could also claimed 4-D time resistance as well since there is a character that could create a space that destroyed localized space-time and BFR as well. Rimuru and his strongest surbordinate could resist it effect with Space-Time control skill.

 

[Wokistan]

That's sorta how space time manip works by default, and also not related to mindhax

Also I was saying that Azathoth is fine with 4D itself. You can control F in that thread "higher dimensional existence" if you want.