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Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

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Okay anything else to proof it? I mean we have Shirou or Alex who create their own little world via RM and they're not Planet level
 
JBennett said:
Okay anything else to proof it? I mean we have Shirou or Alex who create their own little world via RM and they're not Planet level
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technically speaking we decided that all pocket reality feats are valid, it's just that it would be an outlier. inb4 High 4-C Iskander
 
TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
Reddit fan translation vs. official translations? ƒñö
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It being a fan translation doesn't make it any less accurate, just look at the NA localization translating õ©ëÕìâÕñºÕìâõ©ûþòî as Multiverse instead of the Buddhist term. Furthermore most if not all of the terms that the eng TM fanbase uses are based on Fan Translations, such as Heroic Spirit, Divine Construct, True Magic etc which is now used by the official localization as well. Disregarding Fan Translations while using Fate Strange Fake (a Fan translation) and F/SN really doesn't help your case either.
 
@Ozy, Quetz is a Sun God, Sun Gods like Amateratsu are directly said to not derive power from The World, but from the Universe itself and are on another level. There is nothing at all that discredits Quetz from falling on this level as she's a Sun God, and humanity around the time where she manifested would have been much different. You, and honestly Regis as well, should stop relying on the world wank because of disagreement.

@Matt, yes, because me and Ram and others are just pulling things off thin air over here. Like UpgradeMan, it is true that context it's lacking... except for when you remember that Tiamat is literally called an Ark of Life, who could overwrite every single form of life from the sea to the earth with her Chaos Tide and make a bunch of original new beings to repopulate the earth with it, which is her intent in the first place.

Which reminds me, the planet is supposed to take over the laws and common sense of the dominant life forms, hence the Age of the Gods that relied on Mystery and the Age of Man after the decline of the Age of Gods, where science, physics and such exist and fantastical beings can't perseverate. If all of humanity perished and Tiamat's new race became the prevalent dominant species, which would literally create a new world even if we disregard the contextual "new world" born from Tiamat utterly repopulating it. It feels too much like choosing interpretations that suit your views.
 
Quetz is a different type of Sun God from Amaterasu. She shouldn't scale as Amaterasu is the deification of the Sun that comes directly from the universe while Quetz is not originally a Sun God but later acquired some Authorities of the Sun.
 
Ramesses the Sun King said:
Quetz is a different type of Sun God from Amaterasu. She shouldn't scale as Amaterasu is the deification of the Sun that comes directly from the universe while Quetz is not originally a Sun God but later acquired some Authorities of the Sun.
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So she is a partial sun god thus doesn't have the full authority of sun gods such as Syria, lugh, Ra, and Abzu.
 
Firstly, I didn't make the Quetz profile, nor do I have any strong ideas on where her as a god would be rated.

Being an official translation doesn't necessarily make them any more accurate. Especially when said official translation have a pretty poor track record. Anyone with a minimum knowledge of Japanese language and even without any background on Buddhist stuff would know that mistaking something as simple as õ©ëÕìâÕñºÕìâõ©ûþòî and translating it into a word which is ÕñÜÕàâÕ«çÕ«Ö in Japanese is a pretty big beginner mistake. The fact that this translation came from an official translator team just makes this all the more disappointing.

Or you know, the same official translation that keep making mistakes on explaining how QTL and time tree work in Extella. Same official translation that made one of Archimedes' skill to be an entirely new skill due to how different the TL ended up being.

Taking a stance on disregarding fan TL doesn't really help your case either. Might as well invalidate everything from Stay Night and every scaling and lore bits from it as Stay Night never had any official translation. Denying a fan TL for this case while keeping F/SN for no reason would then be a double standard on your end on any case.

Most of these official translation so far has been done by a bunch of people that only did it because it's their job and they got paid for it that rarely actually know the series and how it works in-depth. I'd take a translation from people who actually know the series as a whole, know the in-universe mechanic, know what Nasu was using as a reference/idea when he made something as to give an even deeper context on something, know IRL practiced Japanese concepts that most TM fans on the Western side of the world are unfamiliar with, have been faithfully doing this for over a decade by now, the same people who will correct any mistakes on any given translation if that happen, the people who are the actual gateway between TM related works and any TM fans that are incapable of doing moonrunes like most of the people here, and overall have contributed much more to the fanbase in general compared to a bunch of people who cannot even do their job properly.

If you want to go that way and get rid of fan translated stuff, might as well scrap the FSN and SF profiles given that we never got official translations for them. Heck, even the verse would be gone since most of it is using and based on fan translations of various extra materials.
 
When did they translate something into multiverse, and what was the original scan/raw? I will translate it myself if someone has several youtube videos to compare. Is this confirmed to be in the NA version of F/Go and not faked?

i do understand fan translations when there is no English official translations. Which i believe there is no buyable official translations for strange fake? if there is a version id invest in it. Some may misinterpet me as going aganist fan translations when i am not. Official translations should take precendence becuase "it is their job" which means they are under stricter standards to get the translations right, or they will be penelized while fan translations are subject to more bias. If the need is neccessary i will gladly go translate it myself and post my findings. This is also fate grand order we are talking about. Why haven't they updated the game to more accurate translations?

My point with fan translations is what should we trust more the Fan translation or the Official translation wthen they differ so much? the fate grand order scan is what i am refering too here. Its natural we have to resort to Fan translations when there is no english content. However, Fate grand order has an entire team whose jobs are reliant on translating with "Quality." The reddit translation is massively different than the Official Fate/grand order translation. are you saying the almost entirety of fate/grand order english is somehow wrong? i really doubt that considering the fanbase it has. someone, or multiple would have point that out. Why does the fan translation on reddit differ so much from the English Grand order?

I am not bashing fan translations it is that i priotize official translations over fan translations when their is an option.

@Regis Also, i would like to ask for proof that all of said stuff is somehow wrong. Can you provide me a raw scan and source of where the said scan came from so i can fact check and verify the information?

---

Regarding the layers.

"Age of Gods is amazing! The underworld is physically linked to the real world!Mash - S-so its true!!? It wasn't like, some area in another dimesnion!?"Ishtar - Of course. in the age of Gods, heavens, the earth, and the underworld are all situtated on the same layer of scroll.Ishtar - The afterlife and world of the skies became metaphysical only after the end of the Age of Gods."

"Age of Gods is amazing! The underworld is physically linked to the real world!

Mash - S-so its true!!? It wasn't like, some area in another dimesnion!?"

Ishtar - Of course. in the age of Gods, heavens, the earth, and the underworld are all situtated on the same layer of scroll.

Ishtar - The afterlife and world of the skies became metaphysical only after the end of the Age of Gods."

I will not claim to be the smartest person, or the best debater, but this what i googled what metaphyiscal meant.

This is indicating that the at the end of the "Age of Gods." the entire dimension underwent a full scale reality shift similar to what the percy jackson series went through per my understanding of events.

We also have multiple scans of the Gods true forms belonging to some other higher plane of existence.

"The present theory is that they exist as hollow divine spirits on a higher plane, watching over the world." - Da Vinci

"Well, the original me, Inanna in the higher dimensions, isn't as humanlike as my current form." - Ishtar.

There is more scans during interludes, septem, Okaneos and such speaking of similar things. The Gods no longer exist on earth at all after the age of Gods therefore they no longer share the same "layer"

The Gods live in an overlapping world in a complete seperate dimension.

Fate/strange fake takes place in the age of man when Gilgamesh fights Enkindu. Therefore, this is one possible evidence of World in SF = Planet

another possible evidence

It is Enkindus Enuma Elish.

The entire description is important. It specifically uses the word "Planet." There was not a single mentioning of gilgamesh threatening humanity in his fight. However, in the description. It specifically says "The counter forces known as alya and Gaias powers flow into the keystone made of light."

This goes back to another scan where Tine says "It deludes one into thinking the counter force and gaia..." which i mentioned and posted the scan above.

The "World" in SF = The Planet. We know that by looking at Enkindu's SF description and comparing it to everything else that happened in that fight.

lastly, In Fate/Grand Order. Goetia uses Planet and World alongside of each other.

"and make myself into a new planet, to remake this world ."

And throughout all of Grand order Goetia is only affecting earth in past, present and future???? he also uses the word "world" here too along side planet.


Goetia needed the energy of the incineration of humanity to create his new planet.


he has many claims of really wanting to create a new planet, and that is used in conjuction with world.

and his plan was just minutes of being done

only the bands of light would be capable of defeating the black mud of Tiamat this was before her first form came out of the whole.

Quetzalcoatl thought she could do just that and equate the bands of light.

Therefore sealed tiamat is = Goetias bands of light which is = to the creation of the planet????
 
I would make a rebutle but I'm not the most knowledge on the subject so for now I'll just ask this while waiting for Sir, Ram, and Reigs to do the honors.

So what your claiming is that all of Hummanity is on a Higher dimension, I mean it's stated that the Human world is 'layered above the Physical earth and the Reverse Side and your basically claiming that Layers= dimensions, so does that make everone 5D?
 
That is nonsense. Nowhere is it stated that Humanity is in a higher dimension over the Reverse side. Only that the layers overlap per Merlin and Sherlock.
 
During the transition from the age of Gods to age of man. Reality changed to where they are no longer layered. The "layers" you guys speak of are in a separate dimension completely separated from Earth. The gods have consistent statements of existing in higher dimensions, and they often use lower dimensional host bodies. I did not say anything about humanity being higher dimensional. I repeat i said nothing about 3rd dimensional beings transitioning into 5d beings. Where did 5-D beings come from?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Yeah I am with HaxD that the layers don't actually downgrade Anti-World NPs, if anything they could even upgrade them.
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You have been saying nothing but vague one liners without actually reading and understanding anything that has been posted by people. I'm not seeing any reason to listen to you beyond the green in your name when you haven't exactly shown yourself to be a knowledgeable member.

For example, do you know one Anti-World NP involves the physical creation of a flying fortress? Which is decidedly not the size of The World of Human Awareness or the Reverse Side? Or that another involves twisting targets through manipulating reality over long distances?
 
It's still layered, all of it is still within the boundary of the Earth. Human Order just retroactively censor stuff that don't adhere to the currently established Common Sense of Man. Hence why you'd got stuff like Herakles being converted from a historical figure to a mythical figure, or just stuff from the older era generally got shoved into the Reverse. All of them don't adhere to the current Common Senses dictated by Human Order. Modern humanity just cannot access these different layer that reside beneath their feet, doesn't mean those layers are gone or got separated from the Earth.

The excerpts from GoA has already been posted. Nothing from it suggest those layers disappear/got separated from the planet. The era wherein Artoria reign over Britain as a king has the rest of the planet had already undergone the transition & entering the new era anyway. UK's pile of mystery just fade away slower because UK, for the most part, is a many island country (which was something specifically noted to undergoes the transition on a slower pace.) The thing about the light pillar would disagree with the notion of "dimension separate from earth" anyway, these things' whole purpose is to fasten all these layers unto the planet so it doesn't get messy

Sumerian Underworld didn't become something metaphysical either. It just got shoved into the Reverse/Censored from the perception & accessibility of the current Primate because according to Geology as per the current Common Sense of Man, when you dig a tunnel underground, all you'd get is just more dirt and minerals. Not some Sumerian final resting place for the souls of the dead. The event wherein Benienma made her debut make this more clear with the exposition on both þÅ¥õ©ûÒü«þÉå (Utsushiyo no Kotowari) & Õ╣¢õ©ûÒü«þÉå (Kakuriyo no Kotowari)

About the only time where the distinction between the Reverse and the Current World of Man became terribly blurred that it doesn't quite matter was when the whole Human Order was reduced to Tabula Rasa due to Goetia's meddling. Hence why Merlin can come back to us by running seemingly on foot from Avalon
 
TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
Question, avalon is considered to be apart of these "Layers." yes?
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It's not an individual layer, but a place in the Reverse Side where Britain is in the World of Man.
 
Land of Fairies like Avalon and Inn of the Sparrow reside in the Reverse, yeah. Though if you mean to ask whether Avalon in particular is a Layer on it's own then no, it isn't
 
Regarding scaling to Gilgamesh's "Full power" there is something I want to point out.

In Fate/GO in Babylon SIngularity, Caster Gil is still living Gil and Enkidu's equal

Kingu (while in Enkidu's body) was harmed and left to a near death state by a bunch of Lahmus (when they were at a level similar to the Demon Gods) and while it's true that he was somewhat weakened (because he lacks some of Enkidu's skills like Consumated Shape), his AP and Durability should remain at a similar level (If not higher because he had Babylon's Grail):

Point is, basically the whole "Gilgamesh's Full Power" key is just an outlier (As his living self has no feats of that level nor does Enkidu or anybody close to him in power) and should instead be listed as "Mythological Formal Wear Gil / Origin Boosted Gil" This could work to give more accurated profiles to the likes of Quetz instead of just ranking them in Hype alone, so I thing Living Gil should be At least High 7-A (because of being comparable to Grand Hassan)


As for Tiamat's planet level power because of breaking Kingu's Enuma Elish, I don't think that would work because while it's true that while Beast II is a threath to Humanity, she is still a Beast of Gaia (like Cath Palug) and an agent of the Counter Force so I don't think The counter force would try to destroy one of it's main assets :/

Edit:

Can we please downgrade the Dendera Light Bulb, Stella and The Light Of Judgment (the whole basis of it is that Dendera Light Bulb is stronger than Excalibur Proto with a few seals released (that incidentally is High 6-C) and would have overpowered it if not for Arash's Stella (the split of the national bordes was calculated at High 6-C to Low 6-B as a high end) and The Light of judgment is rated as 6.B because of being comparable to the Light Bulb so it does not have any basis at all for the 6-B rating exept the Vaping of Tokyo (that is a mistranslation and the original text says it can scorch it) and the Ridicoulously Highest possible end of the multiplier of the magical energy of Rhon (Using 6-C x 3000 times and also there is no calc to Pashupata and Brahmastra from where this is scaled from))
 
Also Vasavi Shakti should be downgraded (or changed) to At least High 6-C to possibly 6-B (can kill Divine Spirits in their true bodies like Goddess Rhongomyniad and can easily destroy and bypass Divine level traumathurgy like the Tower of the Farthest Ends) likely 5-B with hax (it's output was completely absorbed by Akhilleus Kosmos, but it's concept of Absolute Destruction still managed to shatter it)


I say this because Karna killing Sephar in Extella/link is an extra non canon mission
 
So you are deciding that something is an outlier when we haven't actually taken a better look at all the other characters Enkidu scales to, would scale above of, and any other feats. That's a bit trigger happy, let me tell you. Affecting Gilgamesh by consequent with this is just weird and a little absurd, deciding to degrade him fighting Kiara to just an outlier for, again, a singular scene that is contradicted by a weakened Quetz battering Lahmus around, and Kingu wasn't just overwhelmed without any chance when Quetz at full power clashed with him to stall him.

When, where, and how did Tiamat ever become a Beast of Gaia or in any way related to the Counter Force? Cath Palug is not even tangentially related to Tiamat beyond being a fellow (potential) Beast, not to mention being "Gaia's Beast" is a thing from the times of Tsukihime and its fighting game.You can't just decide to connect that to characters unrelated to Cath Palug.

I would also really love if you decided to leave all unrelated issues like the Dendera Light Bulb and Vasavi Shakti out of the thread when that's in no way connected to the main CRT. Kiara and Enkidu and Gilgamesh are being discussed because they directly relate to Tiamat, what you brought up has literally nothing to do with it and you'd need to do an actual CRT, not just decide stuff and go "so yeah guys, let's do these downgrades".
 
Caster gil is not equal to archer gil

In fact he is significantly weaker. He discarded most of his treasury and power to become a caster and the only reason he did that was so when he died as a caster he could be summoned later using his treasury key

Also even assuming tiamat was a beast of gaia that wouldn't let her resist enuma elish

The counter force is to help humanity not gaia, since you want to reference tsukihime to should know that gaia actively opposes humanity and wants then wiped out or at least kept in control hence the true ancestors.

This means even if tiamat is a full beast of gaia she isnt protected by the counter so enkidu's enuma elish would still hit her full force if not harder
 
Actually, no, Caster Gil is living Gil just without Ea and most weapons of GoB but his Ap and Durability is the value we should use to scale to his living self.


Also the Counter Force is both Gaia and Alaya, and the beasts of Gaia are all the beings that form the counter force in some way (mind you, Primate Murder is part of the counter force as some sort of safety measure should humanity be close to destroy the planet, also dragons, the fae, elementals and true ancestors are also beasts of Gaia. In Babylonia singularity after Gorgon's and merlin's death, he says that Tiamat is one of the beasts of gaia, one of the seven evils of humanity)


to Sir lancelot, the feats are not an outlier, but using them as "Full power Gilgamesh" instead of "Mythological formal wear Gil" is, because as i already told you, Kingu was almost killed by a bunch of Lahmus (Also the lahmus that Quetz killed were only on the level of low class servants while the lahmus that nearly killed Kingu where on the level of Demon God Pillars)

Edit: actually the tier of those Np would work to give a more solid rating to Divine Spirits
 
The Caster Gil that you can summon and the one in the Singularity are no different, so that's certainly not Servant Caster Gil. He would need no reason to reclass himself into anything if it was actually living Gil because he doesn't gain any magecraft, he uses Mystic Codes he would still have as his living self with his full armory.

Mind providing whatever translation you mean? All I see is "one of the Seven Original Sins" and "Beast of Sin".

Please go right ahead and show me where these difference in the power of the Lahmus was pointed out. Mythological Gear Gilgamesh is called Fullpower/Living Gilgamesh because we know Servant Gilgamesh is weaker for sure, even his Ea is weaker when used, and Gil directly references the "Origin" power being his original power when alive or something to that tune. A single case of Kingu getting hurt with nothing else to support that these were "demon god level" Divine Spirits and the ones Quetz fights are "low servant level ones" until you show it is just rather empty.
 
... Escanor, just go look for the general Nasuverse discussion thread. Stop adding stuff unrelated to the CRT if possible, threads have a limit of 500 messages.
 
When the Chaos Tide reached Ur, it was stated by romani that the Lahmus were on the level of a servant and that they were gradually becoming stronger. And by the time of the fight against Draconic Tiamat, Romani stated that the 12 most powerful Lahmus were Beast II familiars and that they were on the level of demon gods.

Also in the singularity, it is living Gil, not a servant, and Gil hasn't show something on that scale in any moment besides CCC so he is obviously bluffing
 
Yet Kingu was addressing a bunch of random Lahmus that were destroying stuff about killing humans that weren't fighting back, or about not acting as proper new humans. So, apparently,all those Lahmu that turned on him were part of those 12? Plus it was already at that level when, as you say, those Lahmu were only growing in power and this happens before the battle with the Dragon Tiamat? Something is not adding up.

Be sure to show where it's living Gil, without addressing why would Gil need to reclass to Caster since Living Gil wouldn't have his abilities limited, and why would he not be any stronger than any of the other summoned Servants when we know living Gil would be stronger.

>Gil was bluffing.

... Yes, the original and oldest Hero was bluffing about not having the original power humans of old had... and is not like Gil knows exactly how powerful, intelligent and perceptive he is, which is the whole reason for his immense Ego. Or that he's one of the most knowledgable Servants, or rather one of the most knowledgeable humans in the Nasuverse.
 
Karna's side story in Extella is canon. Vasavi Shakti doesn't destroy stuff through hax, stop being silly.

The Gilgamesh in Babylonia is living Gil yes but he's not using his GoB weapons, Ea or Enkidu and he's weakened from summoning Servants and maintaining the bounded field around Uruk IIRC. The actual full power "Living Gil" is only seen in the end when he fights Tiamat as a Ghost.

Kingu nearly got killed because they ripped out his heart/core. It's kind of an outlier for the Lahmu as the Lahmu that did it are the regular Lahmu and not the 11 super Lahmu with magical energy equal to the 72 Demon Gods. Plus he killed them like fodder when he returned with Uruk's Grail. It also makes no sense for random Lahmu to nearly kill a Divine Spirit/Demon God being like Kingu.

The Lahmu also technically hurt Quetz after she got nerfed while she was expending a bunch of magical energy to use Powers Del Sol. But it's also obviously an outlier considering that Quetz could easily rip them apart and "kill" Corrupted Ushi multiple times.

The 6-B Nps are going to be dealt with in another CRT.
 
Regardless, Ea at full power has no 5-A feats, let alone 5-B. It has a potential 6-A statement/feat based on extrapolations and a 7-A/6-C feat by scaling to Excalibur.
 
Rhongomyniad - copia
I finally found it geez

Also, Vasavi Shakti (the anti-divine version) is an attack that absooutely obliterates the oponent using a concept of absolute destruccion.


Now i'll try to find the scans of the Lahmus

Edid: I did not mean that he is bluffing, i refer that is an outlier (As many times this happened, Nasu probably just forgot he made that sentence)

Edit 2: it actually makes sense the Lahmus harming Kingu for the same reason of Servants being able to harm demon gods
 
How's that cosmology blog coming along?

Also what type of concept manipulation applies to fate verse?, the explanation that something works on conceptual level by itself is extremely barebones as it gets.
 
AguilaR101 said:
How's that cosmology blog coming along?
Also what type of concept manipulation applies to fate verse?, the explanation that something works on conceptual level by itself is extremely barebones as it gets.
Click to expand...
I think the word "concept" in nasuverse in general refers to the quality and power of the Mistery that surround an object, and the higher the level of mistery, the more powerful the effect would be. (For example, Gae Bolg, while powerful, can still be tricked)

Its some type of limited conceptual inducement (Like, say Ea, while it doesn't have THAT much firepower, its concept of "truth" is above most things in the planet, allowing it to show the bare face of the planet without layers and is able to destroy RMs regardless of scale)

Also, the quality of the concept of something is normally classified on the ranking system and if two concepts clash, the quality of the mistery will determine the winner, unless they have an extremely close amount (Like Vasavi SHakti and Achilles' shield), and in sucjh case, the winner will be the one with the highest willpower. Or will try to found a loophole should they fail, like Gae Bolg, while Cu died, as it doesn't need its user alive, it redirected itself again and killed Bazzet or with Achilles shield, while Vasavi destroyed the shield, it still protected Sieg (As it already completely destroyed it, its "Concept of Absolute Destruction" was complete and as the output was tanked beforehand, it was nullyfied)
 
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