RESPOND TO DEBUNKED NARUTO FTL+
There is an argument that leads to debunking the speed of Naruto ftl+ ( https://vsbattles.com/threads/naruto-ftl-debunk.154588/#post-5806393 ), therefore I will just make theards immediately so that everyone can see that I will maintain that speed.
—• The post explains that Isshiki failed to get FTL+ speed because Jigen apparently spent 10% of his chakra when facing the Konoha duo, and the vsb party "he said" hid it, there it was also explained that there was an "inconsistency in chronological interpretation of VSB", and finally he said it was also explained that "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually Karma's object", but is the counter argument completely true like that? I will explain below, and I will give my point of argument to several points (according to the rebuttal point by point)
Let's go straight to the point of rebuttal:
—• Point I
At this point, you have a very fatal misunderstanding, we all know that Jigen has power below 10% in chapter 43 ( https://gyazo.com/c44b9fa8db55b50bce32060a420929d4 ) it is explained that Jigen uses too much chakra because he fought Naruto & Sasuke, it makes they both struggled ( https://gyazo.com/867b5c360a447f9a5608a886531e2769 ). And of course the conclusion that we get from some of the explanations above is that Jigen has power below 10% after fighting Naruro and Sasuk.
Now your misunderstanding occurs here, you assume that the thread explained by VSB is Jigen who fought Naruto and Sasuke, so Jigen 10% = Naruto and Sasuke, but thats not the context in it, the reason why Jigen 10% has the same speed balance with Naruto is because when his condition is 10%, he is able to fight with Koji
Koji who can consistently match Jigen's speed [¹] , of course this is relative to Jigen's speed, Koji who is able to beat Delta [²], where Delta himself is able to compete with Naruto [³], this scaling speed is what is meant by VSB side, not Jigen beat NaruSaru at 10%, misunderstanding for you at this point.
[¹] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/boruto-naruto-next-generations/chapter-46/13.jpg
[²] https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel
[³]
And also Koji said that he was able to defeat Delta (for scans: https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel), for Delta himself to be able to significantly match Naruto's speed (), meaning the conclusion we get is Jigen's speed 10% = Koji = Delta = Naruto (no include Byron Mode)
And then, the conclusion reached this time is, Jigen is not known to use what percentage of his strength against the Konoha duo, but Jigen is known to only have 10% power when facing Koji, Jigen (10%) himself was shown very consistently against Koji, of course this make sure that 10% speed Jigen get at least FTL
To rebut your first point, here you get some fallacies:
• Straw Man
• No Limit Fallacy
—• Point II
1st objection:
At this point, you are bringing a case that is actually quite different, but that's not a problem, because this also includes a rebuttal argument. Immediately, here the gist of your argument at this point is to state that "If Isshiki was 10× faster during his first mode on Earth because he wasn't injured yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who was 10× slower to hurt him?". The answer, of course bro, as we know, is that it hasn't been explained in what way Kaguya betrayed (this is an additional thing that is very easy to refute), but basically Kaguya made Isshiki die with Off Guard, this of course can happen, and the entry into the "Outlier" context, if you think "no way, the speed is 10× stronger", of course it is possible,
As we know, Madara himself has Ftl speed (for calculations you can see: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang ), when PDS4 Madara already has victory conditions, of course this making Madara careless and feeling too much that no one can beat him (including the Konoha duo), and Zetsu, where he sided with Madara, betrayed Madara himself to revive Kaguya, is this an "inconsistency" thing? no bro, this happened because of "Off Guard" from one side, Zetsu himself is known to have speed that is not up to sol [⁴], but he is able to off guard Madara himself, this happened because at first they were allies
[⁴] https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zetsu
This is the same thing as Kaguya who made Isshiki die, Kaguya explained "made Isshiki die off guard" not "be able to make Isshiki die while fighting him", Kaguya was not even able to kill Isshiki, of course this makes your argument irrelevant. once because it was too "forced" the obvious thing was "Off Guard"
2nd objection:
For the final rebuttal, I'm not going to discuss the same thing here as before, because I want to argue about the "inconsistency" you explained which in my opinion is not relative.
Naruto himself is described as capable of onpar with Kaguya, he has even made several blizts to Kaguya, this certainly proves that Naruto = Kaguya's speed, but on the other hand, this is different when Naruto fights Ishiki, the thing that "should" happen when Naruto faces Isshiki is them arguing with each other because of the scaling speed earlier, if you say "it's impossible for an Off Guard char that has 10× faster than us" that's very wrong, "Off Guard" can't be pegged to how many times the power it has, Off Guard occurs due to Isshiki's "inattentiveness" on Isshiki's part, of course Kaguya can take advantage of this carelessness, if you think Kaguya "supposedly" has the same speed as Isshiki because she can off guard,Naruto shouldn't be hit by multiple blizzards, not just blazed, Naruto couldn't even match Isshiki's speed
This is of course something that proves that Kaguya really has a big difference in statistics with Isshiki, she is also dying because in Off Guard, not a direct fight, it's even known how Kaguya attacked Isshiki with Off Guard
For an example here I will give: let's say there is a car that can run by itself without any rest/time limit, it has a speed of 10× faster than us, but when it stops for a moment because it "feels" itself able to avoid attacks from humans normal, he immediately fell into the human trap and his speed advantage was useless because of "Off Guard"
3rd objection:
As I explained earlier, it is not yet known how Kaguya made Isshiki die, the information currently available is that Kaguya made Isshiki die in the Off Guard case, now there are other factors that prove that this really does not affect the consistency of speed in case by case chronology , just go straight to explanation
Isshiki himself when fighting Naruto Byron was defeated even though in the end Naruto didn't have enough time and Isshiki again defeated the Konoha duo, after that Isshiki wanted to plant a container for Kawaki, Kawaki himself at that time was able to trick Isshiki with a basic jutsu, namely "Kagebunshin No Jutsu" , Isshiki couldn't even tell which ones were clones and which ones were genuine, it's not known exactly why Isshiki didn't know it, but one thing is clear, using market jutsu or "ordinary" jutsu can trick Isshiki
Then, this is additional strong evidence to prove that Kaguya does not have the same stats as Isshiki, Isshiki could have been tricked by Kaguya with another jutsu to trick Isshiki off guard because as I explained earlier, Isshiki can't even distinguish between clones and people. original, soo up here for my rebuttal.
The essence of the point there is a response this time is:
→ Exactly the same case as Zetsu, but it only belongs to the "Outlier" context
→ Power scaling which is not relative because of the inconsistencies that you describe
→ Various ways Kaguya made Isshiki die, plus an explanation where he made Isshiki die with the "Off Guard" case
Soo, the conclusion you get from your argument is that you are too hasty in interpreting a context, this makes all your arguments subjective, not leading to objective matters, of course this is absolutely certain to contain No Limit Fallacy, and Halt Truth Fallacy.
—• Point III
For the last point, here I will discuss about Jigen being able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, actually this does not affect the conclusion on this topic because it is quite "Out Of Topic" but no problem, I will still respond to your counter argument this time
Let's go straight to the point, Jigen himself has never used 100% Isshiki, of course this is supported by the fight between Jigen vs Duo Konoha, Jigen who "said" can use 100% of Isshiki's power but there are still many mistakes that occur, here I will share several factors support that Jigen cannot be equalized with 100% power Isshiki, lets see my explanation :
Factor 1 :
Jigen isn't as strong as Ishiki has many different aspects in terms of chakra, ap, speed, ninjutsu, doujutsu, it already has quite a big difference, Jigen himself his speed can still be matched by the Konoha duo [⁵], but if we look at it from the side different, Isshiki can't even be attacked by Naruto or Sasuke [⁶], of course this is pretty strong evidence because as we know, chakra affects statistics on a char (I will explain below), and Jigen who "he said "Having 100% chakra can still be balanced by Isshiki, unlike Isshiki himself, he even beat up the Konoha duo, not even being touched.
[⁵] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zoly...t-generations/chapter-38-he-s-bad-news/21.jpg
[⁶]
For the explanation of chakras, I will explain briefly:
Chakra can also affect statistics on a char, like the scene below, where speed will drop drastically if chakra is low, of course this is enough to prove that chakra can increase speed, and the speed itself slows down if chakra is low
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...95ek67Iq3Nzx_GEXaLyKNOEg5xsJdIUyPHvlndWsP-OUn IFIXSNF9zuow3NpHskm3kbhiyOp0x59JF7l4rnLEwPkM4Hwx-kSwjCAXLvmz2ETsrXvZhF5Ll6/s1600/14.jpg
You can also see in the other scans that it looks like Shikamaru whose speed drops drastically when his chakra is almost depleted, and his speed is normal when he has enough or a lot of chakra
https://youtu.be/dhexA5grshQ
For other proof, here you can see that shinobi are able to increase their physical abilities by using chakra to increase their speed by focusing chakra on their feet, this is a basic shinobi technique where naturally every shinobi who makes moves is already in this technique
vsbattles.fandom.com
https://imgur.com/gallery/wHi3SQC
From some of the proofs and explanations that I put out, here we can conclude that chakra = speed, and if a chakra increases on a char, then the speed of the chat itself will increase according to the chakra possessed by that char
Factor 2 :
At this factor, Jigen should be shown using Isshiki's basic jutsu, because karma users when they "activate" their karma alone, will relatively issue their respective special abilities, for example like Boruto who can perform the ability Battle Field Removal [⁷], and this is things that should be displayed when Jigen is able to really use 100% of Isshiki's power:
• Dharmagan
• Sukunahikona
• Daikokuten
• Iron Box (I forget what it's called)
↑
That was the basic jutsu that should be displayed if Jigen really can use 100% of Isshiki's power (although not permanently), especially in his Doujutsu named Dharmagan, because Dharmagan himself has been shown to have never been inactive since the first time Isshiki appeared in the Boruto manga, and this is It should also be displayed on Jigen who "said" has 100% of Isshiki's power
[⁷] https://imgur.com/a/SGCafpg
gyazo.com
And yeah, this is the last thing in my pro argument this time, and the conclusion on this factor is that if Jigen is really able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, then Jigen should also be able to cast Isshiki's basic jutsu.
—• Responsive Conclusion.
The conclusion I get from my Pro argument about the multiplier is:
→ Misunderstanding about claiming speed, because it looks like you think that Jigen at 10% has the same speed as Naruto because Jigen 10% is facing them, even though Naruto is stated to have equal speed with Jigen 10%, because of the scaling chain between Koji, Delta , and Jigen himself.
→ Too stuck with the phrase "10× better power", even though there are many things you don't pay attention to such as the occurrence of Outliers, Isshiki who doesn't have more extensive experience because he is still very easy to trick, and the speed is very inconsistent.
→Too focused on one particular aspect, even though there are still many variations of things that can be concluded for an argument, and the explanation I gave is much more supportive and makes sense because they scale each other's karma, like Boruto and Jigen.
And then overall, here I see that this counter-argument is correct, but too much ignores other things that greatly affect this argument, this is what makes this counter-argument imperfect, plus there is a misunderstanding with the cons, making this easier to be refuted.
If anyone disagrees with my argument here, I will be happy to have a healthy debate directly in the comments column, or even want to continue on another platform. Thanks.
There is an argument that leads to debunking the speed of Naruto ftl+ ( https://vsbattles.com/threads/naruto-ftl-debunk.154588/#post-5806393 ), therefore I will just make theards immediately so that everyone can see that I will maintain that speed.
—• The post explains that Isshiki failed to get FTL+ speed because Jigen apparently spent 10% of his chakra when facing the Konoha duo, and the vsb party "he said" hid it, there it was also explained that there was an "inconsistency in chronological interpretation of VSB", and finally he said it was also explained that "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually Karma's object", but is the counter argument completely true like that? I will explain below, and I will give my point of argument to several points (according to the rebuttal point by point)
Let's go straight to the point of rebuttal:
—• Point I
At this point, you have a very fatal misunderstanding, we all know that Jigen has power below 10% in chapter 43 ( https://gyazo.com/c44b9fa8db55b50bce32060a420929d4 ) it is explained that Jigen uses too much chakra because he fought Naruto & Sasuke, it makes they both struggled ( https://gyazo.com/867b5c360a447f9a5608a886531e2769 ). And of course the conclusion that we get from some of the explanations above is that Jigen has power below 10% after fighting Naruro and Sasuk.
Now your misunderstanding occurs here, you assume that the thread explained by VSB is Jigen who fought Naruto and Sasuke, so Jigen 10% = Naruto and Sasuke, but thats not the context in it, the reason why Jigen 10% has the same speed balance with Naruto is because when his condition is 10%, he is able to fight with Koji
Koji who can consistently match Jigen's speed [¹] , of course this is relative to Jigen's speed, Koji who is able to beat Delta [²], where Delta himself is able to compete with Naruto [³], this scaling speed is what is meant by VSB side, not Jigen beat NaruSaru at 10%, misunderstanding for you at this point.
[¹] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/boruto-naruto-next-generations/chapter-46/13.jpg
[²] https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel
[³]
And also Koji said that he was able to defeat Delta (for scans: https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel), for Delta himself to be able to significantly match Naruto's speed (), meaning the conclusion we get is Jigen's speed 10% = Koji = Delta = Naruto (no include Byron Mode)
And then, the conclusion reached this time is, Jigen is not known to use what percentage of his strength against the Konoha duo, but Jigen is known to only have 10% power when facing Koji, Jigen (10%) himself was shown very consistently against Koji, of course this make sure that 10% speed Jigen get at least FTL
To rebut your first point, here you get some fallacies:
• Straw Man
• No Limit Fallacy
—• Point II
1st objection:
At this point, you are bringing a case that is actually quite different, but that's not a problem, because this also includes a rebuttal argument. Immediately, here the gist of your argument at this point is to state that "If Isshiki was 10× faster during his first mode on Earth because he wasn't injured yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who was 10× slower to hurt him?". The answer, of course bro, as we know, is that it hasn't been explained in what way Kaguya betrayed (this is an additional thing that is very easy to refute), but basically Kaguya made Isshiki die with Off Guard, this of course can happen, and the entry into the "Outlier" context, if you think "no way, the speed is 10× stronger", of course it is possible,
As we know, Madara himself has Ftl speed (for calculations you can see: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang ), when PDS4 Madara already has victory conditions, of course this making Madara careless and feeling too much that no one can beat him (including the Konoha duo), and Zetsu, where he sided with Madara, betrayed Madara himself to revive Kaguya, is this an "inconsistency" thing? no bro, this happened because of "Off Guard" from one side, Zetsu himself is known to have speed that is not up to sol [⁴], but he is able to off guard Madara himself, this happened because at first they were allies
[⁴] https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zetsu
This is the same thing as Kaguya who made Isshiki die, Kaguya explained "made Isshiki die off guard" not "be able to make Isshiki die while fighting him", Kaguya was not even able to kill Isshiki, of course this makes your argument irrelevant. once because it was too "forced" the obvious thing was "Off Guard"
2nd objection:
For the final rebuttal, I'm not going to discuss the same thing here as before, because I want to argue about the "inconsistency" you explained which in my opinion is not relative.
Naruto himself is described as capable of onpar with Kaguya, he has even made several blizts to Kaguya, this certainly proves that Naruto = Kaguya's speed, but on the other hand, this is different when Naruto fights Ishiki, the thing that "should" happen when Naruto faces Isshiki is them arguing with each other because of the scaling speed earlier, if you say "it's impossible for an Off Guard char that has 10× faster than us" that's very wrong, "Off Guard" can't be pegged to how many times the power it has, Off Guard occurs due to Isshiki's "inattentiveness" on Isshiki's part, of course Kaguya can take advantage of this carelessness, if you think Kaguya "supposedly" has the same speed as Isshiki because she can off guard,Naruto shouldn't be hit by multiple blizzards, not just blazed, Naruto couldn't even match Isshiki's speed
This is of course something that proves that Kaguya really has a big difference in statistics with Isshiki, she is also dying because in Off Guard, not a direct fight, it's even known how Kaguya attacked Isshiki with Off Guard
For an example here I will give: let's say there is a car that can run by itself without any rest/time limit, it has a speed of 10× faster than us, but when it stops for a moment because it "feels" itself able to avoid attacks from humans normal, he immediately fell into the human trap and his speed advantage was useless because of "Off Guard"
3rd objection:
As I explained earlier, it is not yet known how Kaguya made Isshiki die, the information currently available is that Kaguya made Isshiki die in the Off Guard case, now there are other factors that prove that this really does not affect the consistency of speed in case by case chronology , just go straight to explanation
Isshiki himself when fighting Naruto Byron was defeated even though in the end Naruto didn't have enough time and Isshiki again defeated the Konoha duo, after that Isshiki wanted to plant a container for Kawaki, Kawaki himself at that time was able to trick Isshiki with a basic jutsu, namely "Kagebunshin No Jutsu" , Isshiki couldn't even tell which ones were clones and which ones were genuine, it's not known exactly why Isshiki didn't know it, but one thing is clear, using market jutsu or "ordinary" jutsu can trick Isshiki
Then, this is additional strong evidence to prove that Kaguya does not have the same stats as Isshiki, Isshiki could have been tricked by Kaguya with another jutsu to trick Isshiki off guard because as I explained earlier, Isshiki can't even distinguish between clones and people. original, soo up here for my rebuttal.
The essence of the point there is a response this time is:
→ Exactly the same case as Zetsu, but it only belongs to the "Outlier" context
→ Power scaling which is not relative because of the inconsistencies that you describe
→ Various ways Kaguya made Isshiki die, plus an explanation where he made Isshiki die with the "Off Guard" case
Soo, the conclusion you get from your argument is that you are too hasty in interpreting a context, this makes all your arguments subjective, not leading to objective matters, of course this is absolutely certain to contain No Limit Fallacy, and Halt Truth Fallacy.
—• Point III
For the last point, here I will discuss about Jigen being able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, actually this does not affect the conclusion on this topic because it is quite "Out Of Topic" but no problem, I will still respond to your counter argument this time
Let's go straight to the point, Jigen himself has never used 100% Isshiki, of course this is supported by the fight between Jigen vs Duo Konoha, Jigen who "said" can use 100% of Isshiki's power but there are still many mistakes that occur, here I will share several factors support that Jigen cannot be equalized with 100% power Isshiki, lets see my explanation :
Factor 1 :
Jigen isn't as strong as Ishiki has many different aspects in terms of chakra, ap, speed, ninjutsu, doujutsu, it already has quite a big difference, Jigen himself his speed can still be matched by the Konoha duo [⁵], but if we look at it from the side different, Isshiki can't even be attacked by Naruto or Sasuke [⁶], of course this is pretty strong evidence because as we know, chakra affects statistics on a char (I will explain below), and Jigen who "he said "Having 100% chakra can still be balanced by Isshiki, unlike Isshiki himself, he even beat up the Konoha duo, not even being touched.
[⁵] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zoly...t-generations/chapter-38-he-s-bad-news/21.jpg
[⁶]
For the explanation of chakras, I will explain briefly:
Chakra can also affect statistics on a char, like the scene below, where speed will drop drastically if chakra is low, of course this is enough to prove that chakra can increase speed, and the speed itself slows down if chakra is low
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...95ek67Iq3Nzx_GEXaLyKNOEg5xsJdIUyPHvlndWsP-OUn IFIXSNF9zuow3NpHskm3kbhiyOp0x59JF7l4rnLEwPkM4Hwx-kSwjCAXLvmz2ETsrXvZhF5Ll6/s1600/14.jpg
You can also see in the other scans that it looks like Shikamaru whose speed drops drastically when his chakra is almost depleted, and his speed is normal when he has enough or a lot of chakra
https://youtu.be/dhexA5grshQ
For other proof, here you can see that shinobi are able to increase their physical abilities by using chakra to increase their speed by focusing chakra on their feet, this is a basic shinobi technique where naturally every shinobi who makes moves is already in this technique
The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement
vsbattles.fandom.com
https://imgur.com/gallery/wHi3SQC
From some of the proofs and explanations that I put out, here we can conclude that chakra = speed, and if a chakra increases on a char, then the speed of the chat itself will increase according to the chakra possessed by that char
Factor 2 :
At this factor, Jigen should be shown using Isshiki's basic jutsu, because karma users when they "activate" their karma alone, will relatively issue their respective special abilities, for example like Boruto who can perform the ability Battle Field Removal [⁷], and this is things that should be displayed when Jigen is able to really use 100% of Isshiki's power:
• Dharmagan
• Sukunahikona
• Daikokuten
• Iron Box (I forget what it's called)
↑
That was the basic jutsu that should be displayed if Jigen really can use 100% of Isshiki's power (although not permanently), especially in his Doujutsu named Dharmagan, because Dharmagan himself has been shown to have never been inactive since the first time Isshiki appeared in the Boruto manga, and this is It should also be displayed on Jigen who "said" has 100% of Isshiki's power
[⁷] https://imgur.com/a/SGCafpg
Gyazo
gyazo.com
And yeah, this is the last thing in my pro argument this time, and the conclusion on this factor is that if Jigen is really able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, then Jigen should also be able to cast Isshiki's basic jutsu.
—• Responsive Conclusion.
The conclusion I get from my Pro argument about the multiplier is:
→ Misunderstanding about claiming speed, because it looks like you think that Jigen at 10% has the same speed as Naruto because Jigen 10% is facing them, even though Naruto is stated to have equal speed with Jigen 10%, because of the scaling chain between Koji, Delta , and Jigen himself.
→ Too stuck with the phrase "10× better power", even though there are many things you don't pay attention to such as the occurrence of Outliers, Isshiki who doesn't have more extensive experience because he is still very easy to trick, and the speed is very inconsistent.
→Too focused on one particular aspect, even though there are still many variations of things that can be concluded for an argument, and the explanation I gave is much more supportive and makes sense because they scale each other's karma, like Boruto and Jigen.
And then overall, here I see that this counter-argument is correct, but too much ignores other things that greatly affect this argument, this is what makes this counter-argument imperfect, plus there is a misunderstanding with the cons, making this easier to be refuted.
If anyone disagrees with my argument here, I will be happy to have a healthy debate directly in the comments column, or even want to continue on another platform. Thanks.
