Relooking at Mario's stats

[Ryukama]

Again, just because these two portals look different and have different effects does not suddenly mean Shadow Mario created entire solar systems. Also are you saying that Shadow Mario didn't create those different looking portals that lead to the bonus stages? So does that mean these different looking portals already existed? If that's the case then again what is there to say Shadow Mario actually created the world that this portal leads to? What was this preexisting portal leading to if supposedly there was never a world until Shadow Mario created it? So if anything this implies that the world was already there without Shadow Mario's influence since the portal to it already existed. If your answer is "No Shadow Mario just created both the portal and the world," then you just proved my point that Shadow Mario can simply create two different types of portals, contrary to your stance that Shadow Mario couldn't have created these other types of portals.

I already explained that being created by someone/something that has a feat does not automatically make you scale to that feat. Also Bowser Jr. is not trying to straight up murder Mario. He just wants to get away with the princess and stop Mario from spraying him with allegedly 4-A water. And by your own logic of Bowser Jr. being just as if not more strong than the paintbrush, then why is he even using the paintbrush to attack Mario in the first place? He could just punch the shit out of Mario.

Also no "Opened a pathway to another world" is not "Created a new world from nothing." It's literally him opening a pathway to the world. Not him actually creating the world itself.

So again, you need to actually find a cutscene or statement of him doing this. The fact that the portals to the bonus world looks different than the other portals Shadow Mario makes does not automatically prove that Shadow Mario created the world itself. It can simply be that Shadow Mario makes different portals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the argument regarding King Boo's mansion is irrelevant since it's stated to have been "built" over a night. It wasn't reality-warped into existence instantly.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Again, just because these two portals look different and have different effects does not suddenly mean Shadow Mario created entire solar systems.

Stop putting words in my mouth, the effects are not the arguments he created them, it's that these aren't standard portals he makes which you use to go through levels.

Also Bowser Jr. is not trying to straight up murder Mario. He just wants to get away with the princess and stop Mario from spraying him with allegedly 4-A water.

Yet everything also you battle suggests otherwise.

And by your own logic of Bowser Jr. being just as if not more strong than the paintbrush, then why is he even using the paintbrush to attack Mario in the first place? He could just punch the shit out of Mario.

What...? Maybe because it's a longer ranged weapon than this fist? Why is this an argument? Why does every other person use their weapons and not fist? They could just punch them, no? You have to realize that paintbrush gives Junior creation abilities, he doesn't have creation abilities without it.

Also no "Opened a pathway to another world" is not "Created a new world from nothing."

Ignores the entire argument and simply says it's not proof

Okay. The pathway is opened when Junior is there, there's paint near the entrances, everything else Junior does is made via paint, it has train tracks in the background which Junior later has his own stage with them, everything points to him making them. Please tell me why these places would just be someplace in space Junior suddenly knew where they were and why they somehow have Shines and platforms.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Also the argument regarding King Boo's mansion is irrelevant since it's stated to have been "built" over a night. It wasn't reality-warped into existence instantly.

Doesn't matter, still stated to be an illusion, yet is very much real. Timeframe is moot.

 

[Ryukama]

You have to realize that paintbrush gives Junior creation abilities, he doesn't have creation abilities without it.

You literally just proved my entire point. The only (alleged) 4-A feat is what the paintbrush does. Bowser Jr. cannot perform this feat on his own. Therefore it does not scale to his own power.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I disagree with downgrades

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I disagree with downgrades

No one’s being downgraded. A couple of feats (King Boo and Shadow Mario) are just being scrutinized.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Anyway, “Pocket Reality Feats” say creating/manipulating pocket realms quantify as AP feats, so wouldn’t the Paintbrush have 4-A AP?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

You literally just proved my entire point. The only (alleged) 4-A feat is what the paintbrush does. Bowser Jr. cannot perform this feat on his own. Therefore it does not scale to his own power.

Yeah, because he can't create. Mario however can survive hits from it, thus scales to his durability. Mario harms enemies who harm him. Junior can harm him in New Soup. Scales to ap. Only difference is the range.

 

[Ryukama]

@Maverick_Zero_X

1. Because there literally is not an actual argument that paintbrush really created solar systems. There is not a single cutscene that shows it doing this. There is not an actual statement saying it did this.

2. The paintbrush's capabilities are not Bowser Jr.'s own power, which DatOneWeeb has now straight up admitted.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree that these feats are bad.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Doesn't matter, still stated to be an illusion, yet is very much real. Timeframe is moot.

This one statement that is entirely unrelated to timeframe means that timeframe is moot.

No it isn't. Illusion or not it wasn't instant.

 

[Ryukama]

Yeah, because he can't create. Mario however can survive hits from it, thus scales to his durability.

He never survived any multi-solar system destroying attacks. A piranha plant bites him and a paint bubble pops on him. These random enemies are not creating entire solar systems with their attacks. Them being created by the paintbrush doesn't automatically make them 4-A. It's such illogic. If someone created a universe and then created a tree, you're going to say the tree = that universe in energy output? They're two entirely different things.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

My argument from scaling is that they scale via durability.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

He never survived any multi-solar system destroying attacks.

Ah yes, let's use range as the argument now and say due to no range means it can't.

These random enemies are not creating entire solar systems with their attacks. Them being created by the paintbrush doesn't automatically make them 4-A.

I don't know why you think I am talking about the minions, I'm talking about the bosses.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Er, so you support the feat?

Can't take a joke?

 

[Ryukama]

No you're abusing "Area of Effect" to give characters tiers that they have no actual feats or legitimate scaling. Just because these enemies were created by something that created a solar system does not mean they themselves are solar systems/have the same energy as a 4-A attack.

The minions are created by the paintbrush and hurt Mario too. Do you think they're also 4-A?

 

[Ryukama]

Also it kinda goes without saying, but if DatOneWeeb's claim of "Both the bonus world and Jr.'s attacks are made of the same paint," is to be taken to heart, then that obviously puts a dent in the claim that these are real stars to begin with. I mean they're literally made out of paint.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

No you're abusing "Area of Effect" to give characters tiers that they have no actual feats or legitimate scaling.

You don't need a destruction/creation feat to scale to someone or something, that's not how a majority of scaling works. Creation is allowed as ap. You saying this would basically invalidate anyone who scales to someone that has creation feats because nothing major was destroyed during a fight.

Just because these enemies were created by something that created a solar system does not mean they themselves are solar systems/have the same energy as a 4-A attack.

Again, why not? Both still have the exact same power source, unless Junior just held back in his creation.

The minions are created by the paintbrush and hurt Mario too. Do you think they're also 4-A?

Almost as if the enemies that aren't bosses are meant to be weaker and created simply from the goop all over the floor.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Also it kinda goes without saying, but if DatOneWeeb's claim of "Both the bonus stages and Jr.'s attacks are made of the same paint," then that obviously puts a dent in the claim that these are real stars to begin with. I mean they're literally made out of paint.

Considering how the everything else created is physical and works as should, so should the stars.

 

[Ryukama]

You can't say "The bosses are created by the same source so they must be capable of 4-A feats" and "the minions aren't as strong as the 4-A bosses" in the same breath. The minions and the bosses are created by the same source. Either they are both 4-A, or you acknowledge that just because something is created by the paintbrush does not mean it's automatically 4-A. Plus the minions can hurt Mario as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My argument from scaling is that they scale via durability.

You don't get durability feats from creation something, even assuming that Shadow Mario did create anyhting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No one’s being downgraded. A couple of feats (King Boo and Shadow Mario) are just being scrutinized.

Three! I call bullshit on Yoshi's "feat"

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

So uh

This again

 

[DatOneWeeb]

You can't say "The bosses are created by the same source so they must be capable of 4-A feats" and "the minions aren't as strong as the 4-A bosses" in the same breath. The minions and the bosses are created by the same source. Either they are both 4-A, or you acknowledge that just because something is created by the paintbrush does not mean it's automatically 4-A. Plus the minions can hurt Mario as well.

The difference between those two is Junior using the bosses as the big baddies, the fodder are on a lesser scale from being made from a very tiny puddle of paint. Where as bosses use big chunks. I'm also wondering why we can't use the brush itself harming Mario to scale? The enemies aren't even the only things. Like I said, Junior hits Mario via paint and later uses it in Junior's Journey.

 

[Ryukama]

So these bosses are 4-A because they were made out of big chunks of paint instead of little puddles? So how powerful these creations are (and whether or not they scale to the 4-A creation feat) depends on "how much paint" it's made out of. But how do we even know "how much paint" was used to create the bonus stages when you can't even show a cutscene of it actually happening? So in other words you don't really have actual proof of these enemies being 4-A. Because according to you their power depends on how much paint they're made of but you don't even know how much paint was used for the 4-A feat to begin with. So how do we know that this "big chunk of paint" is enough to create entire solar systems?

But I'm done with these points. If you want to claim a feat occurred, you need to actually prove it. No one else has to prove the feat didn't happen. You claimed the feat happened, so you need to prove it. You can either do that through

1. Showing a cutscene where we can see Shadow Mario creating these solar systems.

2. Showing a statement that explicitly says Shadow Mario created these solar systems.

Until you can do either one of those, there is no feat and there is no argument. I'm not going to continue going in circles talking about different looking portals or whether or not this creation feat scales to AP. Actually prove the feat happened. There is no point humoring a claim with no actual evidence. We already know Shadow Mario creates portals to different locations that he didn't create. So when we see a portal to these bonus stages, the simplest explanation is that he also created a portal to this other world. Not that he created the entire worlds themselves offscreen without it ever being mentioned. There being paint near the portals doesn't automatically mean he created the worlds that the portals lead to. "A pathway to another world has been opened" is not stating that Shadow Mario created this world, rather further supporting my claim that he opened a portal (aka pathway) to it.

Again, you show a cutscene or give us an actual statement. Until you or someone else can do so, there is no point responding to your claim and no reason to keep a feat that no one can prove on the page. The only proof comes in a cutscene showing this or an actual statement. Not conjecture about paint being near the portals or train tracks in the stage or whatever. Actual proof.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I don't see how King Boo's feat is anything less than 4-A.

Yoshi and Junior's feats do seem unreliable though

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see how King Boo's feat is anything less than 4-A.

It's not instant.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

And, it's questionable if it's even real

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

So, is Mario downgraded?

 

[ElixirBlue]

And, it's questionable if it's even real

Yeah, because the lore totally said Egad used nothing to create Luigi's house. Oh Wait! It said Egad used money collected from the mansion to build Luigi's house.

Also the argument regarding King Boo's mansion is irrelevant since it's stated to have been "built" over a night. It wasn't reality-warped into existence instantly.

Also, "Over Night" is not evidence it wasn't instant. "Over Night" is usually a hyperbolic term used in various scary stories to indicate it wasn't there the day before.

 

[Eficiente]

I support the non-cringy side here.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Which one is that?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ryu, Matt, DatOneWeeb and everyone else, you are not cringy. That would be me, so continue as you are.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I support the non-cringy side here.

Can you be specific?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Yoshi pooping out a Power Star as a 4-A feat is definitely odd to say the least, but I think King Boo's feat is fine for the prior reasons. Neutral on Shadow Mario/BJ stuff.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Also, I don't think the Yoshi constellation feat should count. The might as well be a chain reaction of sorts

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

It also might not be

 

[Ryukama]

Ryu, Matt, DatOneWeeb and everyone else, you are not cringy. That would be me, so continue as you are.

You're not cringey. You're great as you are : )

 

[Chariot190]

Also, I don't think the Yoshi constellation feat should count. The might as well be a chain reaction of sorts

The eating a fruit and suddenly power star feat is sus as ****, but the constellation feat, unless there's actual evidence to suggest it's a chain reaction, would just be exactly what we see. Occam's razer exists for a reason after all.