Regarding Void Feats...Again...

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So in this thread the issue of "Void Feats" has once again, caused a problem.

We have accepted that while on a case-by-case basis, simply being a natural inhabitant of a void is enough for infinite speed.

However, now we have arguments of, "If people can just enter the void, then it is not a void" coming up. I personally consider this blantant PIS for the humans entering said voids. If in Lore said void is stated to be a void, it should be considered a void. However, that is my opinion. I am sick of dealing with this over and over again, whenever a verse wants to upgrade characters to Infinite Speed and such.

We need to settle this as this keeps getting brought up.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

If people go in there constantly, on multiple occasions, at different points in the story, across different media too then it may not be a true void.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Our void rules are beyond idiotic, even after the revisions

 

[KinkiestSins]

Oh Jesus. Well... some characters from Digimon and Magic can survive in the void iirc for a period of time, perhaps indefinitely. I somewhat have an issue with void manipulation in general. If you can survive in existence erasure like say, Epic Battle Fantasy characters, does that mean they tank an attack GeOM void manip? Spoiler Alert: No.

I tend to think void manipulation, and the ability to survive in void/nothingness should be their own powers.

 

[Blanked]

I personally never understood the "infinite" speed reasoning within void.

You can't utilise the regular formula to calculate it cause time within void isn't 0, it simple doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I personally never understood the "infinite" speed reasoning within void.

You can't utilise the regular formula to calculate it cause time within void isn't 0, it simple doesn't exist in the first place.

Just spitballing, but if you are in an infinite realm of nothingness and you can move when you reasonably shouldnt, that comes out as infinite..right?

 

[Dark649]

I agree. We have Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, Unown, Giratina, Darkrai, Cresselia, 7 Lucario and even Mirage Mewtwo being not Infinite, but Immeasurable because they can move in void without time where other characters were constantly show to breath in there. Unown was also tagged multiple time by normal pokemon as well.

Solaris despite being claimed to be a fourth dimensional being, which was going to collapse time and obliviously move after it, was fought in a void and it was negated such speed.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I agree. We have Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, Unown, Giratina, Darkrai, Cresselia, 7 Lucario and even Mirage Mewtwo being Immuaserable because they can move in void without time where other characters were constantly show to breath in there. Unown was also tagged multiple time by normal pokemon.

Solaris despite being claimed to be a fourth dimensional being, which was going to collapse time and obliviously move after it was negated such speed, and i'm talking mainly to him.

You literally just changed my opinion, and you're right that is somewhat ridiculous. Maybe that should just be its own power...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have repeatedly tried my best to organise the staff discussions about how we should handle this, and the current rules are the least bad version that we could come up with.

Basically, moving within a timeless void should only be considered as a valid requirement for infinite speed if it does not strongly contradicts other feats of the characters in question, given that it is recurrently simply a highly illogical plot convenience. Case-by-case-basis is the best that we could manage in this regard.

However, this type of discussion will quickly get out of hand if it is not immediately moved to the staff forum, so I will do so.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If this is really becoming that much of a problem again we might as well throw all moving in a void feats out the window.

 

[Ryukama]

Solaris despite being claimed to be a fourth dimensional being, which was going to collapse time and obliviously move after it was negated such speed, and i'm talking mainly to him.

Quite frankly, only reason Solaris isn't Immeasurable is so Sonic doesn't scale to that. For whatever reason we're now fine with rating him infinitely stronger than he's normally portrayed as yet not infinitely faster.

I agree that, at least by our current standards, he should apply. If we don't want others to scale to that then sure.

 

[Dark649]

Quite frankly, only reason Solaris isn't Immeasurable is so Sonic doesn't scale to that. For whatever reason we're now fine with rating him infinitely stronger than he's normally portrayed as yet not infinitely faster.

I'm talking about Solaris, not to scaling his speed to other characters.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hell, I've always said that Solaris should be infinite or immeasurable. But you're messing with all of void feats over one character, with breathing of all things being the reason.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, from what I remember, our tiering system guru DarkLK did not think that we should count void feats as infinite speed, due to that the environment and its rules are so different from normal spacetime, but several staff members strongly disagreed, so we eventually had to allow some of them again.

 

[Ryukama]

Also I think I may've said this before, but I am completely and utterly indifferent to whether we rate such feats as speed or as mere hax. However I want consistency in how we deal with it, which is far from what we currently have.

 

[Dark649]

Hell, I've always said that Solaris should be infinite or immeasurable. But you're messing with all of void feats over one character, with breathing of all things being the reason.

Then it should the same for Pokemon, we should decide what to do.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"If a normal human enters a void, it's not a void"

Really, this is the actual argument here?

It's far less ridiculous than what I'm thinking of, but it reminds me of the time I heard the argument that lightning in Steven Universe was slower than real lightning because Garnet can't be Hypersonic.

Back on this, a regular human moving in a void is just an outlier or simple contradiction.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally almost always prefer what DarkLK considers most appropriate, so hax would be fine with me, but I was outvoted.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask DontTalk for input. He and DarkLK are our resident geniuses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree 100% with Everlasting, Dragonmasterxyz, and The Real Cal Howard.

And frankly, bringing up Sonic and Solaris is irrelevant to the discussion. There is to be honest nothing wrong with Immeasurable Solaris, as long as Sonic doesn't scale, but that is besides the point.

Our Infinite Speed rules were frankly better before being overcomplicated. Just like Acausality was better before being overcomplicated.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I personally almost always prefer what DarkLK considers most appropriate, so hax would be fine with me, but I was outvoted.

I think it might just be better as a seperate power. I think we have more immeasurable characters then infinite characters lol (though this is my opinion) Just because of this one issue.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will ask DontTalk for input. He and DarkLK are our resident geniuses.

This is a bit much, no?

 

[Dark649]

The new Pokemon Speed upgrade is the result of Note 4 on the Speed page being not understood.

 

[Antoniofer]

I most be ones of the few ones that still agree with DarkLK: some characters would be able to move in these "void", but when they get into the normal/mainstream world they wouldn't show any different speed that they showed in its home dimension; if they actually show or state any infinite difference in speed, them they should be rated as such.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they are at least likely our most intelligent members regarding these types of issues.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I most be ones of the few ones that still agree with DarkLK: some characters would be able to move in these "void", but when they get into the normal/mainstream world they wouldn't show any different speed that they showed in its home dimension; if they actually show or state any infinite difference in speed, them they should be rated as such.

What is the logic behind this?

To quote myself in another page:

"Also, the argument of "Even if you can move and have infinite speed inside a void doesn't mean you'll keep it when entering space-time" makes no sense.

If you can already survive and thrive in an environment worse than one with space-time, why would you suddenly be downgraded and constricted by space-time if you normally aren't?

it's like saying that a being capable of surviving without breathing in the void of space will suddenly start breathing when he lands in an atmosphere, except he doesn't need to do it, doesn't normally do it by instinct, and has nothing to gain from it."

 

[KinkiestSins]

I agree with Antoniofer, then again I never thought of this issue until today.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

We revised the infinite speed rules to the current standards to accommodate yourself and others. I do not know why you suddenly consider that as a bad thing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actually the full-changes were never applied and some people seem to not even be aware that they were changed back.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with Ant, it's matter of consistence with al the verses affected.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Cal

MiH, actually. ovo

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dark649

For your sake, I'm making Solaris Infinite because it deserves to be. Just don't scale Sonic to it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Here is our current Speed page standard description:

"Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

All that is stated is that we should not automatically count all feats of relatively low-level characters as automatically infinite, if it is obvious plot convenience that contradicts everything else. How is that so awful?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The rule itself isn't so awful. What is awful is the endless discussions that spring from it for people not accepting characters becoming Infinite / Immeasurable via this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's not the written rule, but how it's applied. The rule how it's written is fine. How people interpret it isn't. Nor is how voids are scrutinized now.

Edit: I got ninja'd

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt I have to ask though why can Sonic scale to Solaris's AP yet not speed? Why is it okay for us to say these supposed power varying Chaos Emeralds can increase Sonic's strength infinitely more than usual yet not his speed? I'm fine with Sonic not scaling or being upgraded but it seems inconsistent how we're currently doingnit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TBF I'm neutral on Sonic getting variable speed too.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ryu. My best guess, and emphasis on guess, is that power varies. It converts thoughts into power. Not speed. In a verse that's built on speed and makes very clear differences between the two.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryu. My best guess, and emphasis on guess, is that power varies. It converts thoughts into power. Not speed. In a verse that's built on speed and makes very clear differences between the two.

Yeah, basically this. It's way easier to buy the Chaos Emeralds being variable on Sonic's power than speed.

Also, it's hard to even quantify the three hedgehogs fighting Solaris. One was fighting in the past, the other in the future and the other in the present. It was weird.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I tried to word the rule to be as easy to understand as I could. I cannot control if some people misunderstand it anyway.