Regarding Void Feats...Again...

[Dark649]

@Ryu. My best guess, and emphasis on guess, is that power varies. It converts thoughts into power. Not speed. In a verse that's built on speed and makes very clear differences between the two.

Said power also empower speed, this why Super Sonic blitzed Perfect Chaos and kept up with Time Eater Solaris.

 

[Fwahm]

The logic is that the lack of time has no effect on them moving at all, not that they're ACTUALLY somehow moving faster than infinite so they can logic bomb their ways past dividing by zero.

Regardless, logic is not important; how a fictional universe treats voids is. Many fictional universes treat moving in a place of timelessness no different from moving in a place of normal time, and even if you can move in a void, it doesn't mean you're even above average in speed outside of it.

Moving in a true timeless void is impossible even conceptually, so logic is irrelevant when it comes to generalizing it in fictional settings.

 

[Dark649]

Yeah, basically this. It's way easier to buy the Chaos Emeralds being variable on Sonic's power than speed.

Also, it's hard to even quantify the three hedgehogs fighting Solaris. One was fighting in the past, the other in the future and the other in the present. It was weird.

No, also they also kept up with Time Eater, who did the same so this does not work.

 

[Kaltias]

"Say that there are 1000 instances of a character living in a timeless void being tagged by someone with finite speed.

Now, consider that said character had a lifespan of a day. For every second of this day, it performed an infinite speed feat. That's 86400 to the previous 1000."

^My opinion on this topic. You live in a timeless void, you get infinite speed. The issue is only if someone scales.

 

[Ryukama]

How did Sonic keep up with and eventually defeat Solaris if he was infinitely faster than him? And so what you're saying is you can't "buy" the fact that the emeralds can make Sonic infinitely faster despite him keeping up with an infinite being therefore he can't be rated as such? Can't I just arbitrarily say that I don't buy the emeralds making Sonic infinitely stronger despite him beating an infinite being then?

I personally prefer what we used to do and treat the entire fight as an outlier. But it's whatever.

 

[Dark649]

Kaltias do you remember what happened to Alien X?.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Dark

That's irrelevant. Alien X doesn't even live in a void anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Fwahm makes a good point.

 

[Dark649]

I personally prefer what we used to do and treat the entire fight as an outlier. But it's whatever.

Ryukama: You forgot about Time Eater, who is said to by 300qi Eggman: The Time Eater obliterates time and space! Did you really think you could escape him just by running around? [Again both Super Sonic kept up with it]

 

[Antvasima]

However, preferably stop quoting each other back and forth unless it is important to illustrate or repeat something. Usually use @[Member Name] instead.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I think that Fwahm makes a good point.

I also agree with Fwahm.

Considering even that turning something into nothing and nothing shouldnt reasonably exist, we shouldnt hold it as high of a standard to logic imo.

Especially since void hax is the most powerful thing we have on here minus a few.

 

[DodoNova2]

I think I agree that fiction does not treat infinite speed like us and infinite speed can be attributed to a character living in a timeless emptiness if it remains coherent to the franchise (a character like sailor pluto who lives in a timeless world would probably not be admitted because at its stage of history it is an extremely aberent values)

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Im fine as long as its somewhat consistent or not contradicted over half the time.

 

[PaChi2]

I agree with Matt, Cal, Dragon and Ever.

Humans entering voids is blatant outlier. Hell, we rate Zeno as 2-C because he erased time and space, yet Goku could move there no problem, and the Time machine could reach there. This doesnt meant its not a void, its just PIS.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Time machine can go to parralel dimensions, just not time. The rest who knows. Humans entering being an outlier is fine, but not if it's consistently happening nd constant.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will ask DontTalk for input. He and DarkLK are our resident geniuses.

I would rather not be considered as such. If it's not about math my opinion is as good as anyone elses.


In regards to the constant debate I can just say that this is the general problem with case-by-case basis. I mean even if a character moving in a timeless void is tagged by a finite speed character, there would of course be people claiming the finite speed character should scale or that the tagging is PIS not the moving in timeless void. Similar if such a character has many finite speed feats.

That there will be debate about the legitamicy is unavoidable, unless we get rid of case-by-case basis by formulating closer which criteria decide the issue. But agreement on such seems difficult.


Without reading the thread in question closer I would say that a timeless realm that normal people can simply enter is not intended to provide infinite speed
,
At least not in the sense of it being infinite if both characters are within or outside of it. That it basically is so that outside no time passes while one is inside is a possibility, but an entirely different story.
as even if it is a timeless void the author seems to not intend it to be taken that way. When it comes to such principles further outside of common sense I think considering how the fiction in question treats it is relevant, should it not align with our understanding.


Semi-related I would like to ask all you guys what in your understanding is the reason moving in a timeless void proves that the character has specifically infinite speed. For one thing I am a great fan of such things being written down somewhere and being on the same page about it could help with judging what should or shouldn't qualify.

 

[PaChi2]

Time machine can go to parralel dimensions, just not time. The rest who knows. Humans entering being an outlier is fine, but not if it's consistently happening nd constant.

Space was also erased.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I generally agree with Cal, Dragon and Ever.

Case by case is fine.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

As I said, the rest? Who knows, just talking about the time aspect. (Plus zeno isnt rated as infinite speed anyway, if he was it's be inconsistent)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Not everyone uses the term void to describe the same thing. Especially fiction. Here we take it to mean a timeless and spaceless area. However, it can also be used to describe areas in the universe with few or no galaxies. It can also be used to describe a vacuum.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help DontTalk.

I would appreciate if everybody please try to collaborate with him in order to find a solution.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, I can agree with DT and see how the verse and author treat the Void itself: if any character can enter and go out the void with no notable change in any stadistic, there's no reason to give them such value; at the end void doesn't exist in real life, so everything depends of how the author(s) treat it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It has to be a case-by-case analysis, unfortunately. There's no better alternative.

Also, I'm sorry but Zeno doesn't have infinite speed.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Dont think anyone wants or think Zeno is infinite, it's heavily contradicted and shown not to be the case.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I can say that I don't think either that we will get awfully far away from case by case basis. (Unless the reasoning for the infinite speed is changed to something different from what it is currently mostly treated).

What one could consider is trying to gather the reasons of the decisions made for certain characters and try to draw out the essence behind them. That way one could, in some cases, decide new debates more easily and consistently, if the circumstances of the new one closely resembles those of an already decided case.

I non the less think it would be good to get on one page regarding the reasoning behind infinite speed for characters moving in a timeless void and write it down. That would also spare us explaining it seperately whenever anyone asks.

 

[Minecraftlover67]

Well, this kind of stuff is not the type to be easy to solve, because people have different opinions on this sort of stuff and being mis-calculative on particular theories.

 

[Heilergott]

In my opinion this all "void" Feats should be decided verse by verse. I mean, in some verses moving in a void REALLY means infinite speed because they are beyond space and time. And in other verses it just means they can simply move in a void. I mean, the Knight from Hollow Knight has to be rated differently than Giratina and that one again differently than, say Zeratul.

So, really, case to case.

 

[Davidgumazon]

What's known types "void" anyway?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

There is no types, it's either or void or it isn't.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Guys, this is a Staff only thread.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Here, now we should probably stop. (Or message me if ya want a bit more help).

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

It seems like the way to go is a Case by Case scenario because I know several characters who were able to travel across a void, despite the characters or verse itself not known for speed. It would be more wise to judge how just the feat is within the subject since not doing so will cause some confusion and a mess of a rule.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't understand this logic of having infinite speeds if one can move in a void. We can't apply the Speed = Distance/Time formula if time doesn't exist in the first place. We can't say time taken to move in a void is 0, moreover the word "time" shouldn't even be used in a sentence as it is meaningless. Time simply doesn't pass/flow in the void, and the speed formula is rendered useless. In mathematics terms, the formula will become indeterminate, something which is not defined.

It should either not change a character's speed at all, or it should just be incalculable.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see this was staff only. Popped up in my notifications.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Guys, this is a Staff only thread.

 

[PaChi2]

I wondered the same tbh.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Wait, this is staff only?

 

[Kaltias]

However, this type of discussion will quickly get out of hand if it is not immediately moved to the staff forum, so I will do so.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Lol it looks like that didn't get acknowledged (I personally stopped looking at that since I became staff).

 

[ProspectX]

So a void is non-existence. It's a 0, not 1. Meaning that all attributes of dimensional space shouldn't be applicable there. Which means that time itself isn't even a thing in a "true" void.

 

[Davidgumazon]

i don't get you what you meant