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Regarding Might Guy's Attack Potency and Complete Susano'o AP and Durability

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KamiYasha

KamiYasha

VS Battles
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Well, assuming that the Ap revision has ended and as the title said...

Might Guy
The problem here is the next one...

Due to the recent upgrades of some Naruto Shippuden's Profiles, a couple of characters (Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, Hagoromo, Hamura, Momoshiki and Kaguya without ETSB) have been upgraded acording to this calculatio made by DontTalk. The result is 4.52 x10^30 J which translated to our new attack potency chart is Small Planet level.

Also if someone is woindering why these chaarcters are rated like that is because of a thread (which i couldn't find) that explained that Madara, Sasuke and Naurto are at least on Hagoromo's level.

ANYWAY, the issue is: does Might Guy's (Eight Gates) Evening Elephant and Night Guy have an Ap of that level?

-First of all: Evening Elephant: The attack was powerfull enough to make madara covers, lets Analize Rikudo Madara's (1 Rinnegan) durability: Small Planet level (Survived Naruto's Lava Release Rasenshuriken), I believe Might Guy's Evening Elephant should be At least Moon level.

I know, technically a weaker character should not be able to harm one that is many times more powerful through consecutive hits. but, you know, "Fiction"

and about Night Guy: (He obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side almost killing him in the process), about this, i have no doutb this one should be Small Planet level.

If anyone has a better solution, please give your opinion.

Susuano'o
So, the issue here is the stats of Complete's Susano'o

Lets analize:

Sasuke's Complete Susano'o

  • Ap: Island level
  • Durability: Island level to Country level
Madara's Complete Susano'o

  • Ap: Island level
  • Durability: Mountain level
Kakashi's and Obito's Susano'o

  • Ap: Likely Country level
  • Durability: Likely Country level
I think...If i'm not mistaken the Country level Attack Potency comes from naruto and Sasuke Kyuubi/Susanoo that could harm obito Jinchuuriki, or i'm wrong?

Anyway, the unconsciousness in these stats is too much.

If someone can explain or expand to a more reasonable stats, go ahead.
 
Pietro Maximoff said:
The Guy stats should be go back to before ue to the fact, that Naruto had a small planet level feat when he hurt kaguya and was only powerscaled to the sage when he was giving half his power
Click to expand...
...

You do realize that that Single Rinnegan Madara has Small Planet Level durability. With about 10 Evening Elephants, right after each-other, Gai was able to injure Madara. Which means that Evening Elephant is Moon Level. Madara has very rapid Regenerationn, so much so, that he healed almost instantly after having his left side blown off. Because of this, Madara was at full durability, when he was hit with Night Gai. Hence Night Gai should be Small Planet Level.

Also, Pietro, you're wrong. Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto, the one who fought Madara, is Small Planet Level via power-scaling from Madara & Hagoromo.
 
guy staying where he is, the PIS based powerscaling fest must stop in all seriousness, you can't just say that everyone who managed to hurt madara (especially before the part he gained his second Sh-rinnegan eye, the event that enabled him to produce his best feat, which is still far below his ratings) who was "quallified" to his current ratings by an illogical vague statement, that we wouldn't have accepted (and didn't have) for any other series...you can't all the characters on to that frail boat...i won't let it happan, because it opens the door all kinds of nonsense powerscaling such as a planet level sakura (which is the definition of PIS).
 
Illuminati478 said:
guy staying where he is, the PIS based powerscaling fest must stop in all seriousness, you can't just say that everyone who managed to hurt madara (especially before the part he gained his second Sh-rinnegan eye, the event that enabled him to produce his best feat, which is still far below his ratings) who was "quallified" to his current ratings by an illogical vague statement, that we wouldn't have accepted (and didn't have) for any other series...you can't all the characters on to that frail boat...i won't let it happan, because it opens the door all kinds of nonsense powerscaling such as a planet level sakura (which is the definition of PIS).
Click to expand...
... I really don't know what you mean, the only people managed to damage Single Rinnegan Madara are Gai, Naruto, & Sasuke...

Eigth Gate has been hyped since pretty much the begining of the series, you really can't call it PIS.
 
Pietro Maximoff said:
UncleSpaceman said:
Kakashi should be Small Planet Level, for piercing Kaguya (from the official colored manga).
Click to expand...
That's the Kamui Lighting blade which ignores durabilty
Click to expand...
Proof?

Kamui only seemingly allows you to pass through objects. In reality, the part of you that is passing through an object is warped into a parallel dimension.

Here'sthe Fourth Databook's explanation of Kamui Raikiri. To sum, Kakashi uses his Raikiri to pierce his oponent, then the pierced part is instantly phased into a different dimension by Kamui.
 
I obviously can, and i did, its PIS of the hardest kind, especially if the power, that was supposed to kill him afterwards didn't do so.

I call this PIS because if this power doesn't kill him after all, which it evidently doesn't, the entire story line could have ended long ago by Guy just using it to wipe out the Akatsuki early on if it was that powerful, denying Madara's revival and by proxy Kaguya's.

So the only reason he would have to not use it (considering evidence given) is because its not that strong, or at least not enough to finish off the Akatsuki (who are basically fodder now).

Which means there is no logical reason for it be strong enough for Guy to be as strong as madara (or stronger) while using, and as such it was only the case because kishimoto wanted it to be so, the definition of Plot Induced Stupidity.
 
Pietro Maximoff said:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kamui_Lightning_Cutter
Click to expand...
Your point?

Kamui intangibility works by warping parts of the user into a parallel dimension. It would be no good for bypassing durability.

It says he imbues Raikiri with the intangibility/warping effect of Kamui. So whatever Kakashi pierces with the Raikiri is then warped into a parallel dimension.

Also, it's funny that people use the databook when it down-grades something, but call the databook non-sense & non-canon when it upgrades something
 
Illuminati478 said:
I obviously can, and i did, its PIS of the hardest kind, especially if the power, that was supposed to kill him afterwards didn't do so.
I call this PIS because if this power doesn't kill him after all, which it evidently doesn't, the entire story line could have ended long ago by Guy just using it to wipe out the Akatsuki early on if it was that powerful, denying Madara's revival and by proxy Kaguya's.

So the only reason he would have to not use it (considering evidence given) is because its not that strong, or at least not enough to finish off the Akatsuki (who are basically fodder now).

Which means there is no logical reason for it be strong enough for Guy to be as strong as madara (or stronger) while using, and as such it was only the case because kishimoto wanted it to be so, the definition of Plot Induced Stupidity.
Click to expand...
Gai did die, or was about to die. Using Yin power Hagoromo could create form from naught, using Yang power Hagoromo could instill life into form. Naruto gained mastery over Yin & Yang power. Using Yang power, Naruto imbued life back into Gai.

So yes, Eight Gate does kill the user. Gai wasn't dumb, he knew that people like Deidara would be defeated.
 
Still a noob here so sorry if these questions sound silly, but why would Naruto's lava RS be considred small planet level ? And how is Madara's perfect Susanoo only mountain level when his V3 could tank the full Kyuubi's TBB and it took this to partially break it :

F96d33767ec8e711866c9bc8a456aee2
 
Mr.SoloYourFav said:
Still a noob here so sorry if these questions sound silly, but why would Naruto's lava RS be considred small planet level ? And how is Madara's perfect Susanoo only mountain level when his V3 could tank the full Kyuubi's TBB and it took this to partially break it :
Click to expand...
Attack Potency.

"A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

For some reason, this wiki disagrees with Country Level Hashirama & Madara.
 
UncleSpaceman said:
Mr.SoloYourFav said:
Still a noob here so sorry if these questions sound silly, but why would Naruto's lava RS be considred small planet level ? And how is Madara's perfect Susanoo only mountain level when his V3 could tank the full Kyuubi's TBB and it took this to partially break it :
Click to expand...
Attack Potency.
"A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

For some reason, this wiki disagrees with Country Level Hashirama & Madara.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I'm more curious to know what feat exactly deserved his lava RS the small planet level potency.

And what was the reasoning behind Madara's Susanoo not being at least multi-mountain level ? If even his V2 Susanoo could resist the Juubi's cataclysm which is likely the reason why the crater went from this :

Phbzwi1


To this

3964675-14


Then it seems pretty silly to think of his complete Susanoo as only mountain level.
 
@Illuminati478 Hmm. Isn't the difference between Gai and Sakura that there is no real inconsistency with Gai's power-up, which was treated as a major plot point, whereas Sakura somehow suddenly harming Kaguya camy out of nowhere and contradicted her previous showings?
 
Country level with Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara). Continent level with Night Guy, likely higher (Obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side nearly killing him in the process, also stated to be a stronger attack than Evening Elephant)

In my opinion there shouldn't be a change. Guy only managed to harm Madara with damage overtime (6-7 consecutive Evening Elephants and later on hitting him directly). Several Country Level attacks hitting you at one time equal out to Moon Level eventually.

Also Madara was already injured by said attacks when Guy used Night Guy yet he still survived so there's really no way to judge that too. His stats look perfect if you ask me.

^ I still stand by what I said last time regarding Guy.

There's something else that I don't necessarily agree with.

Naruto, Madara, and Sasuke are listed as Small Planet Level at the time where Madara was still missing his other Rinnegan and Naruto and Sasuke had just gotten a powerup from Hagoromo. This is false in my opinion. Six Path Chakra/Senjutsu is the weakness of those with the Jubbi's power which means that it'll hurt worse than most techniques.

I think putting them at around Small Moon Level/Moon Level would be more accurate. In fact:

Six Paths Sage Mode Madara: Moon Level AP and Durability

Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto: Small Moon Level AP and Durability

Rinnegan Sasuke: Small Moon Level AP and Durability via Susanoo

They should only have the Small Planet Level stats after they received more power if you ask me.
 
Non-Bias said:
Country level with Evening Elephant (Able to cause noticeable damage to Rikudo Madara). Continent level with Night Guy, likely higher (Obliterated Rikudo Madara's left side nearly killing him in the process, also stated to be a stronger attack than Evening Elephant)

In my opinion there shouldn't be a change. Guy only managed to harm Madara with damage overtime (6-7 consecutive Evening Elephants and later on hitting him directly). Several Country Level attacks hitting you at one time equal out to Moon Level eventually.

Also Madara was already injured by said attacks when Guy used Night Guy yet he still survived so there's really no way to judge that too. His stats look perfect if you ask me.

^ I still stand by what I said last time regarding Guy.

There's something else that I don't necessarily agree with.

Naruto, Madara, and Sasuke are listed as Small Planet Level at the time where Madara was still missing his other Rinnegan and Naruto and Sasuke had just gotten a powerup from Hagoromo. This is false in my opinion. Six Path Chakra/Senjutsu is the weakness of those with the Jubbi's power which means that it'll hurt worse than most techniques.

I think putting them at around Small Moon Level/Moon Level would be more accurate. In fact:

Six Paths Sage Mode Madara: Moon Level AP and Durability

Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto: Small Moon Level AP and Durability

Rinnegan Sasuke: Small Moon Level AP and Durability via Susanoo

They should only have the Small Planet Level stats after they received more power if you ask me.
Click to expand...
Lol

Single Rinnegan Madara is close to Hagoromo's power, that is 1080 Exatons of TnT. Small Planet Level starts at 433 Exatons of TnT. Close means close, there is no way that Single Rinnegan Madara is 60% weaker than Hagoromo. Hence Single Rinnegan Madara is Small Planet Level.

This makes the rest of your statement null...

Gai injured Madara, with about 10 consecutive Evening Elephants. So Even Elephant should be Moon Level. Madara has very fast Regenerationn, so much so, that he regenerated almost instantly after having his left side blown off. So Madara was at full durability when he was hit with Night Gai. Hence Night Gai is Small Planet Level.
 
UncleSpaceman said:
Illuminati478 said:
I obviously can, and i did, its PIS of the hardest kind, especially if the power, that was supposed to kill him afterwards didn't do so.
I call this PIS because if this power doesn't kill him after all, which it evidently doesn't, the entire story line could have ended long ago by Guy just using it to wipe out the Akatsuki early on if it was that powerful, denying Madara's revival and by proxy Kaguya's.

So the only reason he would have to not use it (considering evidence given) is because its not that strong, or at least not enough to finish off the Akatsuki (who are basically fodder now).

Which means there is no logical reason for it be strong enough for Guy to be as strong as madara (or stronger) while using, and as such it was only the case because kishimoto wanted it to be so, the definition of Plot Induced Stupidity.
Click to expand...
Gai did die, or was about to die. Using Yin power Hagoromo could create form from naught, using Yang power Hagoromo could instill life into form. Naruto gained mastery over Yin & Yang power. Using Yang power, Naruto imbued life back into Gai.
So yes, Eight Gate does kill the user. Gai wasn't dumb, he knew that people like Deidara would be defeated.
Click to expand...
From what we know there is no telling, and even if so, it still quite a leap of faith to assume that a supporting cast character would have a power jump like this.

Madara, the second strongest ninja to have ever lived (under normal means) has absorbed the Juubi which is the combined form of most of the tailed beast at that point, and yet you stand that Guy harming him (even in eighth gate) was not PIS?

By that logic Madara (juubi excluded) and Hashirama, that were the strongest ninja to have live in say 200 years, are nothing special compaired to Guy, this faulty at best, especially considering you want to fully imply that they are the same level, when one could legitimatly say that Guy caught Madara off guard. Also, Madara recieved a power up after the entire incident, so Guy shouldn't be powerscalable at all..

for as much as Guy's Eighth's gate was hyped, it wasn't as hyped as the Kyuubi, Hashirama, base Madara, the Rinnegan or even the Akatsuki for that matter. if hype is a meassure of the expected greatness of characters/abillities, then the Guy's Eighth Gate pulls the short straw, yet it trumps those with ease if PIS is not accounted, therfore breaking that logic aswell, face it, its PIS...
 
Illuminati478

You do realize, that from the beggining of the series it was said that Eighth Gate made the user far stronger than a Hokage. So yes, it makes very much sense that Eighth Gate Gai is stronger than Hashirama.
 
I am sorry to disagree with Illuminati, but I also think that it was a too big plot point to ignore as PIS, and Gai sacrificed his own life to activate it.
 
Infact, Might Gai's Evening Elphant should be Small Planet Level. Look at the damagethat the first Evening Elephant dealt to Madara. His the left and right sides of his chest got blown off.
 
UncleSpaceman said:
Infact, Might Gai's Evening Elphant should be Small Planet Level. Look at the damagethat the first Evening Elephant dealt to Madara. His the left and right sides of his chest got blown off.
Click to expand...
He looks like he's just covered in dirt to me. At that point he wasn't immortal so having his body obliterated like that would have killed him. Further he was later shown tanking several of the same attacks without severe injury.
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
UncleSpaceman said:
Infact, Might Gai's Evening Elphant should be Small Planet Level. Look at the damagethat the first Evening Elephant dealt to Madara. His the left and right sides of his chest got blown off.
Click to expand...
He looks like he's just covered in dirt to me. At that point he wasn't immortal so having his body obliterated like that would have killed him. Further he was later shown tanking several of the same attacks without severe injury.
Click to expand...
Madara didn't even gain immortality until absorbing the Shinju which was after the fight with Guy.
 
I'm still confused as to how Naruto fans think scaling/reverse scaling a sealing ability to the potency of other techniques is legitimate.

how do you prove naruto made a magma rasen shuriken = to the super tailed beast ball rasen shuriken barrage he used against Kaguya (who had small planet durability im assuming because she survived being sealed by s06p), how are the attacks related? if there is no direct power relation and only assumptions how can you prove magma rasen shuriken technique's potency in relation to the sealing technique that makes the Moon? you can't just assume any technique can have the same amount of power put into it, for example the power of a self destruct sequence cannot be simply powerscaled to a character's normal attacks
 
Gallavant said:
I'm still confused as to how Naruto fans think scaling/reverse scaling a sealing ability to the potency of other techniques is legitimate.
how do you prove naruto made a magma rasen shuriken = to the super tailed beast ball rasen shuriken barrage he used against Kaguya, how are the attacks related? if there is no direct power relation and only assumptions how can you prove magma rasen shuriken technique's potency in relation to the sealing technique that makes the Moon? you can't just assume any technique can have the same amount of power put into it, for example the power of a self destruct sequence cannot be simply powerscaled to a character's normal attacks
Click to expand...
That's because you haven't read/payed attention to Naruto

The Six Paths Yin & Yang seals are what sealed Kaguya. Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is what created the moon. Chibaku Tensei is an attack that Nagato & Madara regularly use.
 
Gallavant said:
I'm still confused as to how Naruto fans think scaling/reverse scaling a sealing ability to the potency of other techniques is legitimate.
how do you prove naruto made a magma rasen shuriken = to the super tailed beast ball rasen shuriken barrage he used against Kaguya (who had small planet durability im assuming because she survived being sealed by s06p), how are the attacks related? if there is no direct power relation and only assumptions how can you prove magma rasen shuriken technique's potency in relation to the sealing technique that makes the Moon? you can't just assume any technique can have the same amount of power put into it, for example the power of a self destruct sequence cannot be simply powerscaled to a character's normal attacks
Click to expand...
They've damaged similar powerful beings with their attacks and there is also something called Chakra potency. Self destruct attacks have been scaled to AP before (such as Michael, though whether it's self destruct is debatable).
 
UncleSpaceman said:
Gallavant said:
I'm still confused as to how Naruto fans think scaling/reverse scaling a sealing ability to the potency of other techniques is legitimate.
how do you prove naruto made a magma rasen shuriken = to the super tailed beast ball rasen shuriken barrage he used against Kaguya, how are the attacks related? if there is no direct power relation and only assumptions how can you prove magma rasen shuriken technique's potency in relation to the sealing technique that makes the Moon? you can't just assume any technique can have the same amount of power put into it, for example the power of a self destruct sequence cannot be simply powerscaled to a character's normal attacks
Click to expand...
That's because you haven't read/payed attention to Naruto
The Six Paths Yin & Yang seals are what sealed Kaguya. Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is what created the moon. Chibaku Tensei is an attack that Nagato & Madara regularly use.
Click to expand...
Maybe he can potentially make a big CT 60% the size of S06p's but how does that relate to his durability or the power of his other techniques?

Are we really saying all those country size "raindrops" Madara dropped were Moon level, despite being iirc from the calculation hundredths perhaps thousandths the volume of a Moon? They're just falling rocks
 
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