Regarding Mew and Arceus

[JustANormalPerson01]

One subsection, how would you specify hax that doesn't pertain to in-game abilities / moves such as the passive power nullification of SwSh's legendary pokemon?

 

[NeoZex6399]

Mew being able to use any move it is also stated outside the pokedex.

bump

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

So since mewtwo has practically the same DNA as Mew he would also get all his abilities. Mirage Mewtwo 2.0 in coming

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since necros aren’t banned anymore, I thought it was right to bring this back up without making a whole new thread to repeat what’s mostly accepted.

We still need to give both Mew and Arceus all moves.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bumping again

Because while watching the current anime to catch up, I noticed in the episode where Mewtwo appears, Mew at the start episode shows to transform into Tapu Koko.

So that further proves Mew's transformation abilities allows it to become a 4-B mon.

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping again

Because while watching the current anime to catch up, I noticed in the episode where Mewtwo appears, Mew at the start episode shows to transform into Tapu Koko.

So that further proves Mew's transformation abilities allows it to become a 4-B mon.

Which episode is this? Title? Number? Major plot points or appearing characters?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Which episode is this? Title? Number? Major plot points or appearing characters?

Episode 46 of Journeys: Mewtwo Rises Again. It's the episode Mewtwo fights Ash and Goh

Right at the very beginning of the episode, Mew transforms into several different pokemon on a whim. One of them was Tapu Koko.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

OH YEAH, I FORGOT TO MENTION.

Mew also transofmed into an Ultra Beast afterwards.......

 

[ElixirBlue]

What's the reason for limiting Mew again?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What's the reason for limiting Mew again?

Before it was because we didnt have evidence of Mew having DNA of pokemon who werent native to the pokemon world. Like Necrozma, Deoxys, etc.

However, the current anime series has shown evidence of Mew having that kind of DNA as he was able to become Kartana, an Ultra Beast. So besides the obvious god tiers, this raises the question on whether or not Mew should get the DNA of every other pokemon after all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Mew with all abilities sounds horrendously busted. Following.

Actually, if Mew can transform into 4-B Pokèmon so easily, and he doesn't against Mewtwo, wouldn't that imply his base form is at least comparable to those?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Mew with all abilities sounds horrendously busted. Following.

Actually, if Mew can transform into 4-B Pokèmon so easily, and he doesn't against Mewtwo, wouldn't that imply his base form is at least comparable to those?

I wouldn’t really use that honestly since Mew never actually displayed any transforming abilities until after the 1st movie.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, it's not an ability he unlocked afterwards or anything, doesn't really hold up in canon, especially since Mew does have Transform in his learnset.

 

[Imaginym]

Technically, Mew did still have Transform in its Gen 1 moveset, & was obtainable via events. (Outside of these events, it wasn't obtainable except via glitches.) So in gameplay, it could be obtained & legitimately learn by level-up & use the move. Pokemon the First Movie also came out around the time of Gen 2, or close to it, no?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

True, but the issue is that none of the current 4-B mons really existed around the time the movie was made (as in, they weren’t concepts for the series’s yet).

At best Mew wouldve only bad up to Gen 2 Pokémon in its DNA pool to use, and I doubt any other legendary from either Gen would’ve lasted much against Mewtwo.

 

[Armorchompy]

I understand that, but once again that only holds up out-of-verse, Mew would have that DNA inside him already. I assume if Mew and Mewtwo got upgraded it would **** up the scaling, though?

a snorlax with leftovers and rest totally would in gen 2

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It’s not so much that but more that it’s because it’s a very debatable assertion that doesnt make sense on paper, but doesn’t really hold up beyond that.

It’s why for instance we don’t give Mirage Mewtwo all of the abilities of all Pokémon on the planet, but only those up to the Gen it was debuted in, Gen 3.

Adding to that, because the 4-B mons weren’t a thing yet in the series, how would Mew be able to become them in the first place during the movie? The creators wouldn’t have it become a mon that they didn’t create or have any thought about yet.

 

[Armorchompy]

Of course the people making the movie couldn't have had Mew turn into a Tapu, I understand that, but the explaination doesn't hold up in-verse. Mew knows those Pokèmon and has their DNA, there's absolutely no reason he couldn't turn into them. Him having their genetic composition is also an argument for scaling to them, isn't it? I'm admittedly not aware if this has been rejected already.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No no it isn’t. Mew having the DNA of 4-B mons like Tapu Koko and Ultra Beasts would make him 4-B, but only when transforming into those mons. That’s why his varying tier via transform should go up to 4-B

 

[Armorchompy]

I suppose that isn't necessarily wrong, but if that DNA is enough to copy those pokemon's moves, their abilities and even transform into them, why wouldn't it also be enough to copy their AP?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I...actually dont know. I dont think we accept DNA as enough for AP, just the moves since since thats what the dex and every other credible statement on Mew having all moves specify.

 

[Armorchompy]

I suppose that makes sense, but I feel like a "possibly" would be warranted with what I've brought up

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im not really sure on that given that, even going by it in-universe wise, Mew didnt seem to think Base Mewtwo was that much of a threat. First time around, he laughed in the face of Mewtwo's attacks and when actually fighting back, both were evenly matched the rest of their battle.

 

[LordTracer]

I dont think we accept DNA as enough for AP,

This just made me think of something. Is Mew capable of Transforming into the likes of Darkrai and Cresselia?

 

[Armorchompy]

True, logically he should have their DNA as well, but perhaps they're a bit too high for us to consider that?

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree with DNA scaling.

 

[Armorchompy]

I assume you mean only the AP and other physical stats?

 

[Imaginym]

Of course the people making the movie couldn't have had Mew turn into a Tapu, I understand that, but the explaination doesn't hold up in-verse. Mew knows those Pokèmon and has their DNA, there's absolutely no reason he couldn't turn into them. Him having their genetic composition is also an argument for scaling to them, isn't it? I'm admittedly not aware if this has been rejected already.

It feels like there's two aspects to address regarding if we should assume Mew is as powerful as the 4-B Pokemon it can turn into, even in stuff like Pokemon the First Movie:

1. Is there an in-verse reason we can turn to for this?
2. Do we have our own explanation for it?

In-verse & out-of-verse. Some Pokemon hadn't been introduced to the franchise at the time, but Mew's been around a very long time; Species being undiscovered in-verse & un-concepted out-of-verse didn't mean they didn't exist in the setting, right?

& yeah, DNA scaling is silly.
While it's possibly Mew might have weird DNA configurations that are super optimal for being powerful in a bunch of different ways, we don't know how its DNA is, beyond that it has DNA from all Pokemon.

If there's a box with a set of 52 playing cards inside of it, & we don't know how the cards are arranged in the box, that doesn't necessarily it has them ordered neatly or sorted in a way that they're easy to pick up or that makes them prone to giving them paper cuts.

Similarly, we don't have much information on what benefits or detriments specifically come from Mew's DNA, nor how the parts from the many different Pokemon work together; Just like how you don't know if 5 random cards from a deck will make a good hand.

Heck, for all we know, Mew have all the pieces of other Pokemon's DNA but not the same segments. In real world DNA, AFAIK, DNA is made of A, C, T or G. By varying the order (Order may influence effects.) & quantity, in a segment, as well as the order & quantity of segments, you can get a lot of different combinations, despite using the same pieces. Ex:

1. [ACTG]+[GTCA]
2. [GCTA}+{ACTG]
3. [GTAC]+[CTGA}+[AAAA]
& so on & so forth, with an excess of other possible permutations.

TL;DR - Beyond it having the DNA of all other Pokemon, & being implied to be related to it being able to Transform into other Pokemon & it being able to use all kinds of moves, we don't know the structure of the DNA of Mew or other Pokemon, & thus, don't know what functions (good or bad) they may share. So it's dubious as a basis for assuming power levels, I think.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Theres also the fact that dex entries and research from other professors and whatnot never consider Mew the most powerful pokemon via it having DNA, just an anecestor with all movies (barring the obvious exceptions as Cal made clear before).

So yeah I agree that DNA scaling is way way too wonky for something this high. Just let Mew be 4-B via transform as agreed on before.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Disagree with DNA scaling but agree with powers stuff.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This just made me think of something. Is Mew capable of Transforming into the likes of Darkrai and Cresselia?

As said above, he logically should. Darkrai and Cresselia are the only 2-B god tiers who dont predate the multiverse like Arceus and the CT/LT. They're native to the pokemon world.

And now with what the current anime gives us, Mew even being able to transform into an Ultra Beast, whom explicitly comes from other universes in the multiverse, now raises the question on whether Mew can now be accepted as having the DNA of pokemon who arent native to the pokemon world.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagree with DNA scaling but agree with powers stuff.

My original proposal is fine though right? As in, Mew keeps his normal statistics but he can get 4-B via transforming into the 4-B mon?

 

[Imaginym]

Wasn't there some statement at some point about it being uncertain if Ultra Beasts even are Pokemon? Wasn't that related to Beast Balls?

 

[QuasiYuri]

My original proposal is fine though right? As in, Mew keeps his normal statistics but he can get 4-B via transforming into the 4-B mon?

This one should be fine yeah. After all he litteraly transformed in a 4-B mon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im not sure. Also, my bad guys, this is the wrong thread to discuss Mew tiering in.

Lets take that to this thread I made specifically about it and keep this one about discussing abilities.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Getting back to this topic, Mew and abilities.

Arceus and the god tiers still wont be touched, but now that Mew was able to become an ultra beast, somehow his DNA has proof of having inter dimensional originated Pokémon.

So should we give Mew the abilities of those Pokémon?

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, if he's got the DNA, of course he should get the abilities.

By the way, random question but can Mew transform into Porygon? He's not its ancestor.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also I should point out, DNA scaling was only the secondary argument, my main argument was that Mew didn't feel the need to transform into anything to fight M2

 

[NeoZex6399]

I don't think Darkrai has DNA tbh.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, no Rock, Steel or Ghost type Pokèmon would either, yet we give Mew those powers