Regarding Mastery of Self movement.

[Theglassman12]

There's something that's puzzling me for a bit. So in the explanation for Mastery of Self Movement, I found this.

• Mastery of Self-Movement: A technique learned from Whis. In this state, Goku's body is capable of subconsciously avoiding attacks, disregarding his own capability to react, allowing him to effectively multitask, thinking up strategies while his body fights for him, fully maximizing his offensive and defensive capabilities. As he doesn't need to think to fight, it also makes illusory techniques useless. However, as it doesn't increase his speed, much faster opponents would still be able to bypass it.

So since Mastery of Self Movement makes illusory techniques useless, doesn't that make users like Goku and Whis resistant to illusions?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The idea is that their bodies react on their own so even if their mind is incapacitated, they can still fight, so yea, they should technically have resistance to illusions, and mind manipulation as well probably.

 

[Theglassman12]

Bump

 

[AKM sama]

The idea is that their bodies react on their own so even if their mind is incapacitated, they can still fight, so yea, they should technically have resistance to illusions, and mind manipulation as well probably.

Since UI users completely remove the involvement of brain during combat, technically everything which affects mind or brain like illusion creation, mind control and mind manipilatio would be rendered useless against them in actual combat. (Also it is kinda sorta hinted in 117 spoilers that Goku is unconscious while using UI as Vegeta tries that too)

So yes, I agree with CP.

 

[Theglassman12]

Bump

 

[Master_Xar]

So does that come standard whenever someone with Instinctive Reaction is fighting someone with Illusions and Mind Manipulation?

Also what about those that can obstruct any other of the 5 senses? Are they resistant to Sensory Removal/Altering too since the body can still fight without those?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Just curious but how about illusion like Kyōka Suigetsu(of course i'm not saying that can aizen beat goku or anything like that) since KS can affect 5 senses?

 

[Theglassman12]

Bump.

 

[SomebodyData]

An unconventional resistance, but a resistance none the less.

To Mind Manip, Illusion Manip, and Sensory Manip (Though Mind manip already covers that).

 

[Theglassman12]

So can that be added to their profiles?

 

[SSJRyu1]

Interesting find, but it makes sense. I agree with it.

 

[SomebodyData]

idk lets wait a bit, if no responses i probably might

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm quite a bit iffy on this, tbh.

For one, subconscious people are normally more vulnerable to mind hax due to the increased vulnerability of their consciousness, because it takes a back seat to the body.

But disregarding that, there's still the fact that UI's thing is that it would make the user dodge attacks subconsciously, but it's things the user would've wanted to dodge but couldn't. If say, Professor X or Mewtwo or Darth Vader gave the command "sleep" or "forget", UI's auto-body stuff doesn't make up for it.

Furthermore, how does it make illusion attacks useless? Ignoring that there's quite a few illusionists who have fully physical illusions, the mind is normally what deduces what's real and what's illusion. Why would the body make that distinction? Heck, they'd likely run into the illusionist's trap due to not relying on the mind to think things through.

While the others are iffy, and I could see myself agreeing, sensory manipulation resistance is a complete no-go. Literally none of the five senses are rooted in the mind. Heck, the sixth sense is normally the mental one.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well the problem is the fact that the mind takes a backseat. The may control the mind but the body is no longer connected to that.

Assuming that's because they're mentally affecting the body rather than the mind, then it makes sense that would happen. Like I said, its not standard resistance rather an unconventional one.

Again, its unconventional resistance makes that plausible, but not your standard illusion manipulation.

Well actually, we saw UI Goku dodge attacks without the use of his eyes in the battle with Kafla. So that's kinda out of the book (Always while the body uses the senses, only the mind interprets them.)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Paragraph 1: I can believe what SD is putting down.

Para 2: Same

P3: Same

P4: Dude, Goku didn't need his eyes to do stuff since Popo's trai-

• Cal is never heard from again, as he talked about Popo's training

 

[Ryukama]

Since UI Goku's body fights independently from his mind, I don't see why incapacitating the mind would hinder his combat ability. Of course there are forms of mind hax or high level illusions that could still theoretically work, but since when has a resistance equated to "completely untouchable to any form of the power ever"?

I'm fine with adding those resistances to his profile.

 

[Crzer07]

Maybe they could be immune to all that hax, but should we wait till they show feats of resisting mind manipulation and illusions to be safe

 

[Theglassman12]

Aaaaannnd Cal's assimilated what are the odds........................

I CALL DIBS ON HIS POSITION!!!!

 

[Master_Xar]

I'm quite a bit iffy on this, tbh.

For one, subconscious people are normally more vulnerable to mind hax due to the increased vulnerability of their consciousness, because it takes a back seat to the body.

But disregarding that, there's still the fact that UI's thing is that it would make the user dodge attacks subconsciously, but it's things the user would've wanted to dodge but couldn't. If say, Professor X or Mewtwo or Darth Vader gave the command "sleep" or "forget", UI's auto-body stuff doesn't make up for it.

Furthermore, how does it make illusion attacks useless? Ignoring that there's quite a few illusionists who have fully physical illusions, the mind is normally what deduces what's real and what's illusion. Why would the body make that distinction? Heck, they'd likely run into the illusionist's trap due to not relying on the mind to think things through.

While the others are iffy, and I could see myself agreeing, sensory manipulation resistance is a complete no-go. Literally none of the five senses are rooted in the mind. Heck, the sixth sense is normally the mental one.

In regards to the sensory manipulation it's not in regards to the mind, it's about how the body can still fight and locate the opponent without them, the only real sensory manipulation that would really hinder it is directly affecting instincts, motor skills, muscle memory, etc. You have to directly cripple the body depending on the users' biology of course...

 

[JusticeDab]

what about telepathic attacks?

 

[AKM sama]

Well, like I said, UI users completely remove the involvement of brain during combat, so anything which specifically targets the brain like illusions, mind control, mind manipulation, sensory manipulation, etc will not hinder the user's combat abilities at all.

As SD said, it's a rather unconventional resistance. So, I think instead of outright adding resistance to said attacks it should go something like "Instinctive Reaction which makes him resistant to mind manipulation, blablablah...."

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Hmm so how about illusion thats doesnt only rely on brain? anyone?

 

[AKM sama]

Hmm so how about illusion thats doesnt only rely on brain? anyone?

Illusions that don't target the brain should work but aren't illusions specifically made to target the brain?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Saying UI users should be immune/resistant to sensory manipulation islike saying UI users should immune/resistant to feeling pain at all, because if UI users are completely detached from their minds as you say, then it doesn't matter if the brain processes the sense of pain.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Not necessary need to be illusion but other ability that can affect the other senses too, plus a lot of impossible thing is possible in fiction(like Nebula with IG can petrified walking conceptual being)

 

[AKM sama]

I did not find any page on sensory manip in our wiki lol

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Closest thing to it

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Saint seiya gods/titans have something similar.

 

[AKM sama]

I rewatched that bit. Basically Whis said - "You have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"

I can't say about the feeling pain stuff but if the body reacts on it's own, this definitely renders the attacks which specifically target the mind useless as the body is independent from the mind.

 

[Master_Xar]

Saying UI users should be immune/resistant to sensory manipulation islike saying UI users should immune/resistant to feeling pain at all, because if UI users are completely detached from their minds as you say, then it doesn't matter if the brain processes the sense of pain.

Yes... in that case they would still be able to fight since pain tolerance and registering those nerves has to do with the brain, the pain won't really affect the body until it actually damages them so any empathic manipulation such as pain manipulation of the users nerves won't really affect the body either.

The Instinctive Reaction users' bodies are pretty much heat seeking fight missiles that act accordingly to any situation it's put in to the best of it's ability, personality usually falls out too.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly, the best case you could make would be immunity to empathic manipulation, and even then, I'm pretty certain UI Goku would react if Krillin died in front of him again.

 

[Mania568]

i agree with resistence/immunity to most attacks that only affect the brain and while i think in theory it would shut down pain, with so many inconsisties with the anime goku will be showed to feel pain for sure. for the ones who said wait until its proven to be true, you need to remember this is dragon ball one of the most haxless verses, the show will probably end before anyone would even try such on him, but the explanations for what UI would provide as mind resistences makes much sense to just ignore and say wait for it.

 

[Kaltias]

I think that SD's idea of unconventional resistance makes sense. Immunity no.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Make sense to me. Although with all of these resistances, I actually think Goku might have a decent chance against most people in Low 2-C. Now if you guys excuse me, I am going to throw up since I agreed to make DB even more stupid.

 

[Theglassman12]

Stupid as in?

 

[Theglassman12]

So can this be added?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think this serves as a resistance against mind manipulation or illusions.

First Mind Manipulation: That would be the case if and only if goku could not control his actions in that state. If he were incapable of stopping his body from doing stuff even if he wants it to not do it, then it would work. But that isn't the case. He can still decide what he does (otherwise thinking up strategies would be kinda useless, cause his body wouldn't listen to them). So taking control of his mind and forcing him to stop would work just fine.

The only mind maniulation effect this would really diminish is making him faint (or similar). But that is a very specific subcategory of mind manipulation and isn't a mind manipulation exclusive effect either. So that should be something like fainting resistance or, given that it isn't really resisting the effect at all, just something like "can fight while fainted" would be a better addition.

Illusion Manipulation: First problem is basically the same as for mind manipulation. As long as he is still capable of controlling his body willingly, tricking him into believing something works just fine, because in the end it is still goku making the decisions, his body only reacts if he doesn't do decisions.

Worse one has to consider that the body has to take the information about what is happening from somewhere as well. Illusions distort the information, so even if the body is working independently, basically having a second mind, it still has to make its decisions based on the information it gets through the senses, which are what the illusions distort.

So the decision the body makes will take into account an illusions just as well, in theory.

(If it's officially stated in the show to make illusions useless that is another story of course)

 

[Theglassman12]

The ability specifically states that it lets his body fight for him, there's nothing that suggests that he can't control his body during this state.

 

[SomebodyData]

@DT and Glassman I'm guessing you guys haven't read the spoilers...

We should revive this thread in the future

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with DontTalk in that we might be attributing some stuff to Ultra Instinct that isn't displayed in the series itself. From what I've seen in the anime, it boosts Goku's reactions since his body reacts for him without having to think about it. He's still relying on his senses to fight (unless all his muscles have also spontaneously developed Precognition). Ultra Instinct is just skipping the process of "Oh, I'm being punched. I need to move like this to block, or I could do this to as a counter", esentially putting the body in auto-pilot. Where exactly does the idea of Ultra Instinct giving "resistance to mind manipulation/illusions/whatever" come from?

Because even if Goku used Ultra Instinct while unconscious it doesn't mean any of those things, it would mean KOing or making him asleep would not prevent him from fighting.