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@LazyHunter, Celestial Pegasus, SomebodyData, AKM Sama, and Ryukama pretty much summed it up.
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Regarding Mastery of Self movement.
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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"Being able to fight while their mind is incapacitated" is just a fancy way of saying "the user can fight while unconscious", which is what the anime seems to be going by. While neat, it does not remotely mean that the user has gained an ability to resist his mind being manipulated by a powerful telepath or to resist being mind controlled. This is a really poor argument for any kind of resistance to those abilities.
SomebodyData has better arguments, but I still disagree though.
Well the problem is the fact that the mind takes a backseat. The may control the mind but the body is no longer connected to that.
Assuming that's because they're mentally affecting the body rather than the mind, then it makes sense that would happen. Like I said, its not standard resistance rather an unconventional one.
Mind Manipulators can control the opponent's body by controlling the mind. If Goku has the ability to control his own movements while using Ultra Instinct it clearly means his mind can willingly control his body. Ergo, it's pretty obvious that someone who can affect and/or control his mind can by extension control his body.
Well actually, we saw UI Goku dodge attacks without the use of his eyes in the battle with Kafla. So that's kinda out of the book (Always while the body uses the senses, only the mind interprets them.)
And? Goku has 4 other senses to use + Ki sensing. Ultra Instinct so far has no evidence of not relying on the user's senses to react and fight, so any illusion that tricks the senses (basically any illusion worth its name) could work (without getting into issues like Ki Sensing being able to help see through low-level illusions that only target the five regular senses)
So again I ask, where does the anime give the idea that Ultra Instinct gives resistance to mind manipulation or illusions?
SomebodyData has better arguments, but I still disagree though.
Well the problem is the fact that the mind takes a backseat. The may control the mind but the body is no longer connected to that.
Assuming that's because they're mentally affecting the body rather than the mind, then it makes sense that would happen. Like I said, its not standard resistance rather an unconventional one.
Mind Manipulators can control the opponent's body by controlling the mind. If Goku has the ability to control his own movements while using Ultra Instinct it clearly means his mind can willingly control his body. Ergo, it's pretty obvious that someone who can affect and/or control his mind can by extension control his body.
Well actually, we saw UI Goku dodge attacks without the use of his eyes in the battle with Kafla. So that's kinda out of the book (Always while the body uses the senses, only the mind interprets them.)
And? Goku has 4 other senses to use + Ki sensing. Ultra Instinct so far has no evidence of not relying on the user's senses to react and fight, so any illusion that tricks the senses (basically any illusion worth its name) could work (without getting into issues like Ki Sensing being able to help see through low-level illusions that only target the five regular senses)
So again I ask, where does the anime give the idea that Ultra Instinct gives resistance to mind manipulation or illusions?
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I'm guessing you didn't read the spoilers either @Lazy?
Like I said, wait. Once X is released then all of your arguments will be kinda debunked.
Like I said, wait. Once X is released then all of your arguments will be kinda debunked.
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Dammit just say the spoilers, SD. Don't act like one of those guys who go to the movies with their friends while being the only one who's read the book ovo.
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Nah I'll just wait, plus something can change.
I just say leave the thread be until episode 117.
I just say leave the thread be until episode 117.
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This is why I'm not talking^
Just wait guys ovo
Just wait guys ovo
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Brotha, you better message me or (preferably) send me a PM or I'm gonna go off ovo
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Just.. lets wait for now.
Plus I don't wanna risk the leaks being fake.
Not to mention I think its standard not to put in info based on episodes that haven't been released
Plus I don't wanna risk the leaks being fake.
Not to mention I think its standard not to put in info based on episodes that haven't been released
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Source? Dont give me that common sense thing.Theglassman12 said:
Whis said you can avoid any danger with it. Whats the purpose of UI if a faster enemy can bypass it? Than its like the old days, stronger enemy wins. Doesnt make sense
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You do know that 99% of matches here have speed equalized right?
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I'm still pissed that I am the reason of that...
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Avoid any danger with it even if your opponent trillions of times faster than you? sure. Definitely not NLF.
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I see many comments made here against the notion are directly contradicting what Whis said while explaining the technique.
People are still saying that Goku is using his mind to fight while Whis explicitely stated that "you have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"
When each part of the body thinks and moves on its own, it is no longer dependent on the mind. So any ability which tagets the mind will not affect the movements of the body. Meaning, especially in the middle of the combat when Goku is letting his body do the work on its own, it doesn't matter what is going on with the mind.
Although most of the people who replied on this thread are in agreement, namely Celestial Pegasus, SomebodyData, Ryukama, Kaltias, SsjRyu, Glassman, Master, Kinkiest, Mania and myself, I can wait for the episode SD is talking about and I might have a slight idea of what he/she is talking about.
People are still saying that Goku is using his mind to fight while Whis explicitely stated that "you have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"
When each part of the body thinks and moves on its own, it is no longer dependent on the mind. So any ability which tagets the mind will not affect the movements of the body. Meaning, especially in the middle of the combat when Goku is letting his body do the work on its own, it doesn't matter what is going on with the mind.
Although most of the people who replied on this thread are in agreement, namely Celestial Pegasus, SomebodyData, Ryukama, Kaltias, SsjRyu, Glassman, Master, Kinkiest, Mania and myself, I can wait for the episode SD is talking about and I might have a slight idea of what he/she is talking about.
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I'm here just to ask some questions.
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But you are using your commence sense again, when Whis (the character who has master UI) suggest otherwise. I am sorry but I believe Whis (writer) more then your common sense.Not Jim Sterling said:
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Thx for the rules buddy. But do you also have the rules against not allowing to spread misleading information?
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We also have rules to not wanking something to oblivion without enough feats.
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That still won't stop his body to dodge oncoming attack as that is the basic definition of Mastery of Self-Movement.Kaltias said:
Say Goku is fighting a guy like Babidi. Now even if Babidi tries to control Goku's mind, it won't affect his body movements as each part of the body will think and react on its own. That's why I agreed with SD that it is a rather unconventional resistance and it should not be added explicitely, instead it should go with "Instinctive Reaction which also...bla bla whatever"
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That goes back to what CP, Ryukama and SD covered earlier. Even if his mind is incapacitated the body parts will function on their own. Now what you asked is a totally hypothetical scenario. Maybe the body part won't even listen to the mind if it can think on its own, it knows what it is doing and probably it won't do it. Or maybe the other body part will react on its own, to like save Goku from punching himself.Kaltias said:
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Okay, lemme rephrase it. Going by the basic definition, Goku will dodge the oncoming attack without relying on his mind. So in that particular moment when the body is acting independently from his mind, it won't work.
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Yes. Which means that at the end of the day, those are reflexes on steroids. It doesn't prevent being mind controlled.
Mastery of Self-Movement: A technique learned from Whis. In this state, Goku's body is capable of subconsciously avoiding attacks, disregarding his own capability to react, allowing him to effectively multitask, thinking up strategies while his body fights for him, fully maximizing his offensive and defensive capabilities. As he doesn't need to think to fight, it also makes illusory techniques useless. However, as it doesn't increase his speed, much faster opponents would still be able to bypass it.
Mastery of Self-Movement: A technique learned from Whis. In this state, Goku's body is capable of subconsciously avoiding attacks, disregarding his own capability to react, allowing him to effectively multitask, thinking up strategies while his body fights for him, fully maximizing his offensive and defensive capabilities. As he doesn't need to think to fight, it also makes illusory techniques useless. However, as it doesn't increase his speed, much faster opponents would still be able to bypass it.
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@SD are u talking about the spoilers for tonight's episode or the Vegeta's one involving UI?
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And that's why I said it's an unconventional resistance because manipulating his mind will not hinder the movement of the body parts during combat. That's why I said the resistances should not be mentioned explicitely but instead they should be added as a by-product of "Instinctive Reaction"
Again re-iterating what Whis said - "You have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"
Again re-iterating what Whis said - "You have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"
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@SomebodyData
Since you don't want to bring up the spoilers, can you at least tell us which ep we are supposed to wait for?
Since you don't want to bring up the spoilers, can you at least tell us which ep we are supposed to wait for?
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I'm wondering why we are making upgrade/revision threads before we even have the god dam episode released containing the information.
Seriously, this keeps happening for Super.
Seriously, this keeps happening for Super.
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@Pannalicour All we know about Ultra Instict is that it's "each body part thinking and moving on its own". So it basically means Goku's body can fight independently on its own. Where does it say that if someone were faster than what Goku's body can think and react to that they couldn't blitz him?
"Whis said you can avoid any danger". Do you honestly think if Whis or Grand Priest wanted to punch UI Goku in the face they wouldn't be able to do so? Or if Zeno wants to erase UI Goku he'd avoid that danger?
Even if we're going to say yes UI Goku can avoid anything the series has to offer him, including people like Grand Priest or Zeno, then that only means UI Goku can avoid all danger in the Dragon Ball verse. That doesn't mean UI Goku avoids anything from any series ever.
Saitama within his own series can effortlessly defeat anyone. That doesn't mean if you put him in Marvel he's going to one-shot Thanos or TOAA. Nothing but Master Sword can defeat Ganon within his own series. Doesn't mean an attack from Dark Schneider isn't going kill Ganon because he doesn't have a Master Sword.
So even if UI Goku casually dodges every Dragon Ball characters' attacks, that doesn't mean you put him in a series with people vastly superior to anything DB has ever shown, that he won't get destroyed.
"Whis said you can avoid any danger". Do you honestly think if Whis or Grand Priest wanted to punch UI Goku in the face they wouldn't be able to do so? Or if Zeno wants to erase UI Goku he'd avoid that danger?
Even if we're going to say yes UI Goku can avoid anything the series has to offer him, including people like Grand Priest or Zeno, then that only means UI Goku can avoid all danger in the Dragon Ball verse. That doesn't mean UI Goku avoids anything from any series ever.
Saitama within his own series can effortlessly defeat anyone. That doesn't mean if you put him in Marvel he's going to one-shot Thanos or TOAA. Nothing but Master Sword can defeat Ganon within his own series. Doesn't mean an attack from Dark Schneider isn't going kill Ganon because he doesn't have a Master Sword.
So even if UI Goku casually dodges every Dragon Ball characters' attacks, that doesn't mean you put him in a series with people vastly superior to anything DB has ever shown, that he won't get destroyed.
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I'd like to note that as long as your movements are efficient and small, you'd be able to block attacks faster than you are naturally. Since UI is movement without delay and almost peak optimal efficiency, Goku WOULD be able to negate any speed difference as long as it's they're still in generally the same ballpark. But honestly if you pit Goku against an opponent that can speedblitz gin anyways, MOST if not ALL matches like that are mismatched.
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Whis said Goku needs to disconnect his brain from his body to use UI or something along those lines this episode.
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So does that mean the user's resistant to illusions and mind manipulation?
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if you are trying to connect to this episode, whis said he still uses his head to attack and if he can master it before the tournament ends, so right now he does everything without thinking but the attacks, in theory, yes he would have some resistences AFTER mastering it completely, which he should to fight jiren later on.Theglassman12 said:
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After watching this episode, I came to this conclusion.
UI mastered Goku is essentially an animal. Whis states that Goku mastered would be relying solely on instinct, and he doesn't have to decide what action would be the most effective. Instinct would make him auto-choose the best action, reading the opponent's movements the best they can via instinct.
Another thing is that Goku's brain doesn't go to crap and take a backseat to the body. It's essentially eternal muscle memory on steroids.
Instinct doesn't make you immune to illusions, mental manipulation, empathic manipulation, and perception manipulation. Unless you'd say that something like a lion or a wolf in real life would do the same.
UI mastered Goku is essentially an animal. Whis states that Goku mastered would be relying solely on instinct, and he doesn't have to decide what action would be the most effective. Instinct would make him auto-choose the best action, reading the opponent's movements the best they can via instinct.
Another thing is that Goku's brain doesn't go to crap and take a backseat to the body. It's essentially eternal muscle memory on steroids.
Instinct doesn't make you immune to illusions, mental manipulation, empathic manipulation, and perception manipulation. Unless you'd say that something like a lion or a wolf in real life would do the same.
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No, Goku is not like an animal lol
So the episode made it clear that UI Goku does dodge everything unconsciously. He uses UI for defensive purposes for now.
But currently he still thinks for offensive purposes. And if he can master it completely, he would be able to attack without relying on his mind too.
Now Whis explicitely stated that UI Goku dodges everything unconsciously and only uses his mind for offensive purposes. This would mean that if anyone tries to manipulate Goku's mind and orders him to "stay put" at one place, so that he can attack Goku, that won't work because Goku would still dodge unconsciously. This is a kind of partial resistance imo
So the episode made it clear that UI Goku does dodge everything unconsciously. He uses UI for defensive purposes for now.
But currently he still thinks for offensive purposes. And if he can master it completely, he would be able to attack without relying on his mind too.
Now Whis explicitely stated that UI Goku dodges everything unconsciously and only uses his mind for offensive purposes. This would mean that if anyone tries to manipulate Goku's mind and orders him to "stay put" at one place, so that he can attack Goku, that won't work because Goku would still dodge unconsciously. This is a kind of partial resistance imo
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