Regarding Mastery of Self movement.

[Akreious]

(Damnit Cal, now I have to focus on breathing! Don't you get that? tell someone to notice their breathing and BAM! they're suddenly in manual mode. Thanks )

Difference is, Ultra Instinct is a very difficult technique; like Beerus with thousands of years to train (and presumably the other GoDs) and none of them has fully mastered it like Whis. It's different from the instinct to breathe in the fact that you relinquish ALL your control to follow your instincts. Now some may argue that you breathe like that, but please refer to again, Whis' statement. "you have to have each part of your body think and move on its own"'' . Feel free to correct me, but I think people are taking Ultra Instinct a little too literally and applying real life instincts to it. Sure it IS instinct in concept, but I don't think instinct has auto-dodge. Having each part of your body think and move for itself is very different from say, the urge to eat, poop, pee, sleep, drink, maybe even kill.

Not to be rude or mean, but what are the evidence that were brought up that Goku and Whis DON'T get these? I mean besides that "It's still only instincts" argument.

(And for the record, UI CANNOT and WILL NOT avoid ALL dangers. that is very clearly hyperbole or just hype. It allows users to avoid dangers they couldn't normally, yes. but not all.)

 

[Theglassman12]

So what's the verdict here?

 

[Akreious]

Still under discussion I think. I think some people still would want to bring up counter arguments.

 

[Golden_Void]

If UIO allows subconscious movements, then it is only restricted by the capabilities of the body. This does't seem to be going anywhere, so can I close this? :^)

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Just my 2 cents UIO seems to just make you fight even when the brain and thoughts are not there letting the body run on auto-pilot

Let's say someone mindscrews you to see sexy shit and stuff (i wish that is a power :^) ) but UIO is more like kuroko's basket's in the zone (whatever it's called) just on steriods and the mind take a backseat really so it would pointless to do anything to something that will do nothing

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Red. Emma Frost says hi ovo.

But on topic, I don't know why peeps are assuming that subconscious =/= mentally independent, when by every definition, it's not. Heck, the fact that you have to teach your body is proof enough. The mind taking a back seat to the body doesn't mean it can't seize control whenever. Otherwise, someone like Whis could never be touched, as afaik, he's naturally in UI.

Here's a better analogy. A leader (the mind) can delegate tasks to their subordinates (the body), so they can act without his orders. Doesn't mean he can't be made to take back control and give orders whenever he feels like it.

 

[Akreious]

Actually, you're using the wrong type of wording Cal. It's UNCONSCIOUSLY. As in, like said all of above, your body moves independently from your body. Goku SUBCONSCIOUSLY goes into UI when he is dealt with an overwhelming force/stress. Phrasing is important here.

And that's the problem with current UI against Kefla Cal. He's thinking and taking back the movements that his body wants to do as UI. He's THINKING of his attacks, which slows him down and therefore makes his attacks ineffective up until he launched the Kamehameha. He's giving orders to his arms TO attack, which is exactly what he should NOT be doing. A fully mastered UI user separates the mind and the body. Goku has not done that yet.

And even if this thread agrees that Goku can't resist Mind Control (Controls Goku's body), a Mind Crush wouldn't work as that's merely removing Goku's mind which the body never really needed in the first place whilst in UI.

 

[Theglassman12]

So can we add the changes to Goku and Whis' profiles now?

 

[KinkiestSins]

So can we add the changes to Goku and Whis' profiles now?

No because it is stil too controversial. It might end up being closed, I lost track about who supports and it doesnt. Although I change my support to against.

They should probably just be resistant to just Illusions via the description. But even then, it could just be flowerly language..

 

[Theglassman12]

Pegasus, AKM, SSJRyu, Data, Ryukama, Mania, Redgrave, Akreious, Anonymou all seem to agree on this.

Only Cal, Kinky, and Lazy are the ones that disagree.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Kink. We worded that. That wasn't taken from the show. It's not flowery language as much as it is our interpretation.

@glass. DT also said no, which is important. Tho I agree with Akr that making a UI user a vegetable should (potentially) be useful.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cal you mean transmutation?

 

[Golden_Void]

I still think this should be closed for now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal you mean transmutation?

By vegetable, I meant brain-dead. And by useful, I meant...the exact opposite. I don't know why I said useful over useless...

 

[Theglassman12]

The body will still fight by itself even if the mind went brain dead.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's what I agreed with (I mean...kinda. The ones where you still have basic functions like breathing and such? Yeah. The ones where you need life support to keep your body functions running? No.)

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, so 9.5 people agrees with this while 3.5 people disagree with this.

 

[Golden_Void]

Did someone cut themselves in half and vote for both?

 

[Theglassman12]

Yep, Cal did for kinda agreeing with this.

 

[Fankid]

Didn't goku already have a limited ability to bypass illusions, not resistance though, as he's able to see thorough after images, not all though, and is able to sense ki, so he can distinguish the person from an illusion.

 

[Akreious]

This is regarding Ultra Instinct, not Goku's other abilities Fankid.

Edit: Oh that's what you meant. Yes, purely visual and sensory illusions wouldn't work on Goku due to lifeforce sensing. Illusions that also affects your life force (Hit's dimension thing isn't an illusion but same effect) would bypass this.

 

[Fankid]

I know, it's just a little thing that kind of should be added to the profile, but idc if it does or doesn't.

Yeah.

 

[AKM sama]

Sure, Goku should be able to bypass purely visual and other sensory illusions via his energy/ki sensing unless the illusion affects his energy/ki sensing explicitely like Hit's.

 

[Theglassman12]

So we can add this right?

 

[Akreious]

Majority seems to be in favour.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can someone unlock goku and whis' profile so I can add this into their profiles?

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally uneasy with adding an ability that we have not seen, based solely based on speculation, and am leaning towards agreeing with LazyHunter.

 

[AKM sama]

LazyHunter has some good points. Although I think the body should move on its own and Goku should react unconsciously, it'd be safer for us to wait and observe the attacking half of UI as well. When Goku masters it completely, we might get more exposition on the ability.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Theglassman12]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like we are undecided here, but it still seems like speculation to me.

 

[Akreious]

We all still agree that AT LEAST, making Goku a vegetable via Mind crush abilities wouldn't affect UIO Goku's fighting due to Ultra Instinct never really needing it. The matter of debate is wether mind control is effective or not.

 

[Golden_Void]

I don't think this should be added. It's speculative.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Golden_Void]

So since his body works independent of the mind, if a powerful illusion technique made Goku think he was dead or drowning, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't keep fighting. The mind and body are still connected.

 

[Theglassman12]

Bump.

 

[Akreious]

That.. doesn't address what i was saying at all. If you turn Goku into a vegetable, NOT "making him think he is dead", UI would stilll allow Goku to fight on. Also United, Im fairly that what you're describing is sensory manipulation.

 

[Golden_Void]

There's no proof of that, and senses stem from the mind, which is what an illusion interacts with.

 

[Akreious]

"There's no proof of that"

So you're going to completely ignore Whis' statements then? The whole problem with Goku right now is that he ISN'T seperating the mind from the body. That's why he didn't absolutely destroy Kefla with only a few shots and why Kefla thought UIO Goku's attacks were puny.

And if you read my posts above, I was specifically talking about illusions such as ones affecting the mind (Making you think something is there when it isn't; never actually affecting your direct senses) and visual illusions. I never once talked about illusions that affect the senses as awhole; which can be argued against anyways since if the Illusions doesn't affect your life force then Goku can easily see through most illusions due to life sensing. That was the problem with the illusions done in the ToP; Goku and Co could sense the illusions and couldn't discern which is real or not.

Tl;Dr, Your argument is uses the basis that Ultra Instinct still relies upon the mind and can be directly influenced via the mind. The problem is that Whis and basically all statements regarding UI is that UI is supposed to be a state of mind where you detach your mind from the body; letting your own body parts do the moving. That isn't speculation; it's basically confirmed by all sources regarding UI.

 

[Golden_Void]

If we took that statement literally, Goku could be decapitated, and his body parts would still think and move on their own. You still need a fully functioning brain to have a body that's capable of movement.

Additionally, I think this thread has been dragged out far too long on such a speculative proposal, so until there's even a hint of proof to suggest these resistances, I'm closing this.