• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Record of Ragnarok Revision

Status
Not open for further replies.
SomebodyData said:
Well it does matter. We don't give soul destruction to magical girls in Madoka for example for being able to harm their soul gems.
Click to expand...


"Soul gems." As opposed to fighting and damaging an actual human soul. Two very different things that can't be compared in any way.
 
Again, I never said they weren't so that spoiler alert isn't actually a spoiler alert. These are the souls of actual humans fighting against one another, them being psychical doesn't take away from them being souls, as souls function differently throughout the medium and religion. A perfect example would be how Bleach's souls are tangible and solid, now you aren't insinuating that we should remove soul manipulation for these characters just because they're solid correct? Thought as much.


Also souls in RoR behave differently than Soul Gems so I don't understand why you bringing them up is even a "valid." Point considering the different mechanics.
 
Yeah. @100 Megaton Give me a bit and I can probably think of a couple more examples, or souls that require their intagibility or 'soul properities' to be actively activated from other verses, if you'd like.

@Prince that's a spoiler alert regardless of you asking.

Yeah, they all work differently. So where's your proof that this interpertation has intangible souls or even are treated like affecting the abstract soul even in physical form? "Thought as much."

I'm using the Soul Gems to disprove the notion that the souls have to be intangible or that damaging tangible ones means soul manip. Very valid point.
 
Okay, first off souls do not need to be intangible in order to be considered a "soul." Again, let me reiterate this point. You are under the assumption that a soul needs to be intangible in order to be considered a soul, which is flawed and isn't a criteria, matter of fact there isn't a criteria that constitutes what a "soul." Truly is, so for you to make the claim that souls need to be intangible in order to gain soul manipulation is asinine, especially considering other verses don't follow these guidelines for soul manipulation, which again isn't a criteria.
 
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if a soul is shown to gain physical properties, why are we assuming you still need to have soul manipulation to affect something clearly physical.

It made sense for intangible souls or souls inside a body, but physical souls? For touching or damaging them? That doesn't make sense, when the reason they can touch or damage them is because they're physical.

I'm pretty sure that other verses have discussed the issue in the past and have some explanation for why they have soul manip, for example Undertale only has Soul Manip because its explicit the soul is still in Frisk's body, but its being affected anyways. The soul is not Frisk's physical body. So no, they do follow this general idea. We don't have to make everything an explicit guideline when common sense is usually a guide here.
 
But they were inside their bodies too begin with. These are long dead historical figures whose souls passed on to the afterlife and have now been summoned to fight in a tournament called Ragnarok. That they seem as tangible as the coliseum they're fighting in has no bearing since we are not on Earth, we are in the realm of literal gods. Again, I cannot stress this enough but RoR treats souls the same way Bleach does and we should treat RoR the same way we treat Bleach.
 
The bleach example is actually different. Bleach characters can harm the soul even when said soul is in a physical container that should leave the soul completely unperturbed if they didn't have this, but this is obviously not the case.

I said it before and say it again, that is nothing more than the circumstances of the Ragnarok tournament making this possible. Feel free to just see Cronos after Zeus kills him or look at the God Poseidon killed or all the giants Thor slaughters - they don't die at all like the people in the tournament, for obvious reasons, and there's zero indication their souls were directly damaged.
 
@100 Megaton Initially yes, but these souls have regained physical form. This story also shows that even pre-tournament the Gods also have physical form, and can be touched by humans (Hercules, after he gained the strength of the Gods but still hasn't descended into one).

Dragon Ball treats souls the same way as RoR but doesn't give Soul Manipulation. In this specific category, it depends on the verse.

EDIT: Lancelot debunked the Bleach analogy, so the last part is a bit redundant.
 
No, but what you are doing is attempting to instill this "general idea." despite this general idea for soul manipulation never being brought up in a CRT. Because the soul is still a soul at the end of the day, a spiritual entity, in other words not human or anything in that realm. No matter how you wanna chalk it up at the end of the day what's being attacked is a soul itself, not a body but a soul. Not a vessel, not a vessel with a soul but the very soul itself. Regardless of it's psychical or not said soul is a soul, not to mention nowhere in Shuumatsu is it stated that the souls are physical FYI, it's more likely that the souls are indeed intangible but the combatants have NPI.


Once more, a soul being tangible isn't an anti feat for the soul in question, although I'd appreciate if you could start by linking me the CRT where we decided to disregard souls that are physical but I've never seen such a thread.

  • laughs in Bleach


Again, this is a general idea I've never seen be accepted much like discussed considering the amount of CRT's I've seen. I'm not sure why you haven't responded to my Bleach example, said souls in Bleach are physical in nature but that doesn't disprove the notion of them being souls or interacting with them granting soul manipulation. This is due to what the verse classifies as a soul, something that's different from verse to verse. So untill you make a CRT regarding soul manipulation as a whole i ain't budging on this since that's the way the wiki works.
 
^Lancelot debunked your post (even the new ones as a side-effect, from Bleach to this intangible stuff) actually, recommend reading his post.
 
It actually has been brought up. Interacting physically with a physical soul has never granted soul manipulation, manipulating the physical soul in some other way, or in the case of Bleach which is what got that CRT accepted in the first place, affecting the soul when it is in a physical container, does.

Neither of which is happening in RoR.
 
... But his point was about why Bleach got accepted?

Unless you mean, the killing, but I'm pretty sure we visually see that happen.
 
You mean headcanon what the whole organizer of this entire tournament says herself?

Yes, my headcanon, what a dumb ass condescending form of proving me wrong.

Do you also want scans of Thor killing the Giants? Of Cronos dead after Zeus ends him? Of neither of them disintegrating like in the Ragnarok tournament? Want me to also bring up and link the Bleach CRT were damaging the soul through Zanpakutou was only given to bleach because of examples like the Vizored being in Gigai, physical vessels, yet their souls being affected, instead of them having it because everyone is a soul and they can hurt each other which is what you are implying gives Soul Manip? Do you also want me to pull out the lack of Soul stuff for Dragon Ball because their souls are physical and can be killed by physical means, which doesn't give Soul Manipulation?
 
So you are saying that 1) people like Cronos and Adamas weren't really killed and still have their souls in takt and 2) gods would be incapable of destroying souls outside of Ragnarok?
 
Yes, I am saying exactly that unless we have reason to think the contrary.

Or do you really think crazy Poseidon wouldn't have destroyed Adamas' soul as the cherry on top for what he did if he could? Or Adam's on the snake as it used its same technique?

The one time the soul stuff is brought up, no one is made responsible, only that the tournament pits up the souls of the fighters against each other. The one I am more convinced could actually get soul manipulation is the Valkyries if they are supposed to bring back the souls of people, or the fact that our big meme faced Valkyrie girly seems to be the one choosing and making the many souls appear for the tournament, but that's something best discussed in the future if there's ever anything good enough to get her a profile.
 
1: Fortunately for my argument the scan you provided is actually supporting my own argument, Brun is directly stating that this is a battle of souls, nowhere is it stated that the soul Destruction is apart of the rules of Ragnarok if my memory serves me right. Also I'm gonna go ahead and skip your arguments regarding Poseidon's older brother and Cronus considering we're never shown what happens to the bodies afterwards, and the soul isn't instantly destroyed as the death of Lu Bu, Adam and Poseidon proved. It's well within the realm of possibility that the bodies disappeared shortly afterwards, even being made evident with Poseidon's brother being "erased from history."


2: I'm not being condescending in the slightest, that's just my way of talking. However that comment you just now made is about 1000x more condescending and disrespectful than anything I've written down here, so I'd suggest practicing on what you preach Lancelot.


3: Seen all of em, providing scans for them is unnecessary. Also considering that I've seen the Bleach thread along with the fact that I argued for soul manipulation for Bleach characters on an older account of mine that I forgot the password for long before they were even added to the profiles.
 
It actually does not support your point, if this is only something specific for Ragnarok, which would be the case as no one else killed by a God, or that we see being killed by the human characters, die in the way the series shows someone that gets their soul destroyed does. And oh? So we are gonna run with assumptions despite the fact barely much time passes after Lu Bu's retainers are killed and they disappear, completely unlike the mountains of Giants butchered by Thor, which he started doing in the afternoon with the sun on the sky and by the end is Sunset, and not a single body is disappearing?

Then I am sorry, but it feels condescending to call something you haven't even proved false "headcanon". I don't see no condescendation in asking how such empty comments proves anything I've said wrong, which is what I would hope you've be doing if you can call what I say head canon.

Which is completely irrelevant and worth nothing. The only moment that was actually accepted was with the "Vizored get soul hurt despite being in a vessel" thing, since Shinigami had nothing like outright soul destruction like the Quincy. Souls you can interact with physically being killable doesn't give you soul manipulation. Feel free to make a CRT if you want, but that's how it is.
 
No one should get it in general, actually.

But no, is being argued that they should since "it is a battle of souls", and the soul of Poseidon was obviously destroyed. So if it was souls fighting, they should have soul manipulation to destroy each others souls.
 
I'll be honest and say I wouldn't even give that.

What I feel is happening in the tournament isn't that they are souls or anything like that. There's no indication they are, they still interact normally with what looks like and hasn't been disproved from being, an entirely physically normal stadium, they bleed, they get scrapped, etc. And unlike Dragon Ball, is not even definite that they are souls. So, once more, what I feel is happening is merely that whoever dies just gets their soul erased.

So losing is by itself what gets your soul erased. Which explains very well why this would be a one time thing. Either the humans lose all of their great people and a chance of recovery is unlikely, or the Gods do.
 
SHE did to be honest I'm not really sure what to think about this whole soul manipulation thing. Since the feature was added to the arena someone obviously had the power to erase souls or at the very least send them into the vacuum of space not really sure if it's a specific individual or all gods have that power. The only way I see the humans getting any form of soul manipulation is if Volound is the fusion of body and Soul similar to soul eater(not sure if any of you have watched the anime) it's been awhile since I watched that series so forgive me if that's incorrect.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Didn't Brynhild (who btw, way better waifu than Fate's version of her, no cap) say that this was a fight of souls or something?
Click to expand...
Yes, but my problem is taking it literal. From everything we've seen, I really feel that the soul of anyone who dies here is just consigned to oblivion, rather than these being souls acting like living beings a la Bleach or Dragon Ball.
 
Which kinda falls on its face when they don't behave like souls and, unlike those two afformentioned series, nothing indicates souls are just physical things in this universe unless we take the meaning at face value.
 
Idk what your on about, they behave pretty much like shinigami in Bleach do. Do you want them to behave like ghosts from Danny Phantom? Sorry, this series is one big tournament arc. We can't have the characters just fazing through the arena (that's most likely made with magic).
 
... Uh, at what point do they ever behave like Shinigami?

They aren't called outright souls, they aren't invisible to normal senses, they don't have soul stuff powers, and they don't have outright statements like Bleach that mention shinigami have to eat and are tangible only because they have more power than normal souls,

The only thing this has is an assumption relying on taking the statement staight to the face.

I don't care what this series is, and I don't even get what is your point, because mine is that only taking the statement at face value would make them literal souls. If it doesn't give us any more details, **** it then, that's not my problem.
 
There isn't a literal definition of what a soul is. Bleach treats them the way they do and other verses treat them however they what as.

It's up to individual authors to decide if they want the souls be tangible or intangible, visible or invisible, dentient and self-aware or not. When the characters here die their souls get destroyed and there's no indication that that is solely because do to being in Ragnarok, that has never been stated.

Also to asume that Ragnarok enables some special conditions that allow for the soul to be destroyed is a great assumtion to make as I see nothing that special about it beyond it's a giant tournament where all the gods and humans were pitted (and summoned) against on another.

In other words there is no indication that Ragnarok itself is the cause for the destruction of the soul as opposed to getting mortally injured from devine weapons (or fists).
 
There isn't a definition, but there is an assumption of what a soul is. Don't like it, make a CRT about it.

Indeed, and this one hasn't done so in the slightest, because he has decided nothing, you are just interjecting your opinion and flavoring it as his intent by taking a single statement straight to the face. Which, alongside the fact that I am pretty sure we assume souls to behave along certain criteria unless there's enough proof or statements of the contrary, swings things to my interpretation.

Especially when you obviously don't see the comment I made above, where I literally show all of the intact, if shredded, body of the giants Thor started killing by afternoon and that hadn't disappeared, not a single one, by Sunset. Anyone killed took less than a minute to disappear, after all.
 
I feel like we should just say "Possible Soul manipulation (Reason for it)" then on the notes area of the page explain why it's only possibly.
 
@Lancelot No need to get sassy about it.

You are arguing that they aren't souls. That doesn't change the fact that when they got killed their souls got destroyed and with no reason to believe it was "just because it's Ragnarok".

After these "historical" figures died their souls moved on to heaven (or wherever) and now they have been summoned to fight. It is possible that they were given physical bodies but that's is a baseless assumption. To be more specific Brun said that they got removed from the cycle of reincarnation of which gods likely aren't part of. It's unlikely that if a god dies they just get reincarnated as another god or even a human, if that is they should likely get summoned as well as they should still be out there.

Also those giants may very well have been physical as they are neither god nor human, they are something else. They could have had their physical bedy destroyed without their soul (if they even have any). Also your statements are a bot hyperbolic. Did you count every single giant in that pic to make sure that they are 66? Did you figure out when during the 7 minite fight did Adam die and how long it took him to disappear?

Now these may seem like silly points to make but far as I see it a lot of what you said is also an interpretation/opinion on what happened and how it happened. I don't see the problem in taking the statement literally as opposed to searching for some other meaning behind it that it may very well not have. These quote on quote contradictions with how a soul is assumed to behave don't seem striking enough to dismiss the rest of what has been shown to us.
 
I am not being sassy, I am being honest. Is the assumptions we use, and there's nothing much that can be done about it unless you wanna make a CRT about this kind of thing or confirm with an Admin.

No, there is reason to believe. Is called context and implications. Not only are you assuming gods aren't a part of this cycle, which doesn't matter since they have souls as we saw with Poseidon disappearing just like Lu Bu and Adam, you are also assuming what the gaints were.

Now you are nitpicking. We need to assume what the giants are, we need to assume how much time Thor took finishing the ones we can see, we need to assume god knows what else to run with your interpretation. And by Occam's Razor, your abundance of assumptions with nothing behind them fall flat on their face.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
No, there is reason to believe. Is called context and implications. Not only are you assuming gods aren't a part of this cycle, which doesn't matter since they have souls as we saw with Poseidon disappearing just like Lu Bu and Adam, you are also assuming what the gaints were.
Click to expand...
You are missing the point. It is implied that this is a "battle of souls" and we see the participants crumble away when they die unlike what usually happens. We have reason to belive the soul was destroyed as a result of the damage sustained and not merely because they lost a battle of Ragnarok as if that is the case were Kojiro to give up he would have died.

Now you are nitpicking. We need to assume what the giants are, we need to assume how much time Thor took finishing the ones we can see, we need to assume god knows what else to run with your interpretation. And by Occam's Razor, your abundance of assumptions with nothing behind them fall flat on their face.

Yes, we need to assume what the giants are. Either they should behave like regular people or like the participants of Ragnarok or some third option. There's nothing pointing to either of these option so it can't be assumed that their bodies not disappearing disproves soul manip. The rest you mention is irrelevant.
 
And you have missed mine so many times that I see it doesn't matter what I say. I never said the soul wasn't destroyed, I've said that a million times - I've said that one, you never see this happen with anyone else a God has been shown killed and you have brought nothing to prove the opposite so we know the Gods can't destroy souls, and two, there is nothing indicating they are souls that simply act like physical living bodies. So 3, it would make sense dying and getting your soul destroyed is just a part of the Ragnarok tournament, and not something the gods can do or the humans with Divine Weapons.

And do you know what we assume? That they have souls. For ****'s sake that is the base assumption, what is so hard to get? Wanna assume otherwise? Perfect, the burden of proof is on you, bring proof that would make your assumption more likely. Have nothing? Perfect, your assumption gets thrown aside.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Giannysmag
  • Locked
Record of Ragnarok - 7-A Downgrade
2
Replies
48
Views
5K
Giannysmag
Giannysmag
XSOULOFCINDERX
Nikola Tesla (Record of Ragnarok) Fix
Replies
11
Views
1K
Small_Ophion
Small_Ophion
XSOULOFCINDERX
Qin Shi Huang and Hades (Record of Ragnarok) Fix
Replies
35
Views
2K
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
Giannysmag
  • Locked
Record of Ragnarok - Big Speed Revision
2 3
Replies
87
Views
10K
Giannysmag
Giannysmag
Niece
Record of Ragnarok speed Downgrade
Replies
2
Views
1K
Niece
Niece
Back
Top