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Record of Ragnarok Revision

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They're definitely souls, souls don't need to be intangible nor do they need to be invisible to others, as I stated previously souls behave differently from medium to medium and from religion to religion. There isn't only "one type of soul." or a criteria for what constitutes what a soul truly is. I believe that was the same exact argument Matthew used to try to debunk Bleach souls for being souls, using the fact that they bleed, eat drink and sleep.


  • Everyone is in heaven / the afterlife it wouldn't make much sense for mortal human bodies to he roaming around all willy nilly.


  • Brun directly states that Ragnarok is a battle of souls. This seems pretty self explanatory to me.


Again let me reiterate, there isn't any guidelines for what makes a soul a soul, in Bleach souls are solid, bleed, eat, sleep etc. At least when it comes to Shinigami and Hollows and so on and so forth. Using the argument that they bleed and such to try to debunk them is Matthew levels of reaching if I'm to be honest. And if i recall sould in Dragon Ball are more similar to that of a logia where they're made of smoke and such, so that's not a good comparison either. Also there is no guidelines for what makes a soul a soul, or what makes a soul legit. This is soemthing I've never seen on the wiki, nor do i ever recall such a rule being made. So, could you find the thread where this "soul guideline" was brought up and decided upon? If so could you post it here?
 
Wasn't there also a scene where Kojiro comes to be and the valks call him a soul when he appears as a old man??
 
???

I never said Souls can't be this or that, what are you talking about? I am saying it is not the assumption you make until there is proof of it. There is no real proof being given here.

Rather, this would require to assume from step one that they are actually souls, to then say "see? They are souls but they can still bleed and get hurt!"., so you put the cart before the horse.

You can only go for circular reasoning by assuming from the start they are souls, to then point to the fact they are hurt and bleeding, to then claim that souls can be hurt and bleed as we see when they fight. You'd need to prove they are souls first.

And to reiterate because I realize you really aren't understanding me at all. We don't decide what souls are, that would be dumb, but we assume what a soul would behave like due to what is most common and general, until proof of the contrary is given. So the base assumption would never be tangible souls until there was proof behind it.
 
Lancelot, tell us what makes a ******* soul a real soul? There's literally nothing about this and it's been your argument for the majority of the thread. Eariler in this thread you even used them bleeding to say they aren't real souls, which I can even quote you on. Souls being able to bleed and such isn't counter evidence as stated by Kep and Monarch, it's like me saying that Masda souls aren't real souls because they have mass to them and can bleed, same thing applies to Shinigami and other spiritual entities in Bleach.


You can't be use them bleeding as apart of your argument, currently your deciding your own rules on what makes a soul a soul despite this never being agreed on the wiki, matter of fact with the thread I link you it would be the opposite. Souls can indeed bleed and such varying from religion and fiction. Again, this is quite literally the same exact argument Matthew used and everyone told him he was wrong.
 
Unless I am literally talking to you in a different language, I don't know how to else to put it for you.

We don't say a soul needs to be this or that, I never denied this, but we never assume from the outset a soul is this or that until sufficient proof from the series make this a fact or a reasonable assumption.

And even if they are souls, you run on the same deal. A physical soul you can hurt doesn't get you soul manipulation for killing it, very same reason Dragon Ball doesn't have it and Bleach Shinigami didn't with their Zanpakutous until we saw the souls of vizored inside vessels were hurt despite the vessels.
 
Are we trying to argue the souls participating in an afterlife tournament in Heaven aren't souls? I was told to visit this thread from off-site and there's nearly 400 comments to catch up on.

Something I disagree with the OP on though:

> Soul Manipulation: Killed Poseidon and destroyed his soul.

Kojiro did not destroy Poseidon's soul. The rules of the Ragnarok tourney are what condemn the souls to oblivion.
 
There is clearly a lot of disagreement on the soul manip. Can we agree to have Possible Soul Manip and resistance to it since we almost certainly aren't gonna agree, while I think those against it can at least agree that it is a reasonable possibility that they have soul manip
 
Xulrev said:
Are we trying to argue the souls participating in an afterlife tournament in Heaven aren't souls? I was told to visit this thread from off-site and there's nearly 400 comments to catch up on.
Click to expand...
It was something I felt could be a possibility due to some stuff.

But in general my only point is that it isn't soul manipulation anyway. Physical souls that can be physically killed aren't grounds for soul manipulation.
 
I would still vehemently disagree as we have other cases like this and was still a big no.

But I guess I could agree with it if nothing else can be done.
 
I myself haven't seen such cases where souls interacting was denied Soul Manipulation, for what that's worth.

But the page for Soul Manip does state that interacting with souls qualifies
 
Is the very same reason shinigami didn't have soul intereaction with their Zanpakutou until they were shown hurting the soul despite being inside a vessel, which was the Vizored inside the artificial gigai bodies.

Also the fact souls can be interacted with and killed in dragon ball, but none of them have it because of the fact souls more or less act like living bodies. See the examples of interaction, it even says being able to interact with souls and things like ghosts directly is only NPI and doesn't grant manipulation. If the soul is already tangible then, what does it give you?
 
Unfortunately nah, possibly would make sense if there was any contradictions, but there is a matter of something else.
 
SomebodyData said:
Unfortunately nah, possibly would make sense if there was any contradictions, but there is a matter of something else.
Click to expand...
I don't quite follow, could you elaborate?
 
The Likely rating suggests that there is a greater chance than not for something, its just not explicit and interpertation could be a problem. (There is evidence, no contradiction, but not enough evidence)

The Possibly rating suggests its possible, but the evidence is smaller or contradicted, but there is a chance that on something that can't be explained otherwise. (There is small evidence or a contradiction, no better explanations).

That would imply that the evidence points to a chance of soul destruction but if all the evidence is debunked or can be debunked, it removes that possibly rating.
 
It's not really debunked, and just to be clear, I don't even think their soul manip would even bypass durability, at least not unless a specific verse has shown that their souls in more fragile than their actual body. The soul destruction isn't necessarily why they should have it, but more the fact they can fight as a soul and, in the case of the Gods, attack souls. I follow the interpretation that the erasure on it's own is either something unique to the verse (as in, once a soul takes a sufficient amount of punishment they just naturally get erased) or that this is a product of the tournament in and of itself, but there are still cases where characters have received soul manip just for being able to interact with them.
 
... I feel I am honestly repeating that the sky is blue.

Like the page for Soul Manipulation itself mentions, and you can go check it so that you know I am not bullshitting, interacting with a soul directly isn't soul manipulation, its NPI. Because to have Soul Manipulation, you kinda need to do some manipulating, which is the case if you can attack the soul while the person has a flesh and blood body because you are damaging something you aren't interacting directly with.

But as the souls are entirely physical, this doesn't even get you NPI. Do I need to actually use a whole different language to say this? These souls bleed, they literally freaking feel the wind and can stand on ground, why would they have soul manipulation because they can fight each other?

Does anybody arguing for Soul Manipulation even know what Soul Manipulation is?
 
I'm not really going to touch this whole soul manipulation thing with a 10 foot Pole. Does anyone know how Volund works is it the temporary fusion of body and soul similar to the soul eater anime? Sorry if I'm wrong about that it's been awhile since I watched the series. Anyway I reread chapter 6 of this series and Lu Bu when creating sky eater was thinking "take a stance and let the power flow" then some weird aura which I'm going to assume is chi surrounded his body should we add life force manipulation or Chi manipulation to his profile because of that?
 
PowerToScale said:
I feel like we should just say "Possible Soul manipulation (Reason for it)" then on the notes area of the page explain why it's only possibly.
Click to expand...
This but instead on each character pages, we just write up an explanation on the verses page instead
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
... I feel I am honestly repeating that the sky is blue.
Like the page for Soul Manipulation itself mentions, and you can go check it so that you know I am not bullshitting, interacting with a soul directly isn't soul manipulation, its NPI. Because to have Soul Manipulation, you kinda need to do some manipulating, which is the case if you can attack the soul while the person has a flesh and blood body because you are damaging something you aren't interacting directly with.

But as the souls are entirely physical, this doesn't even get you NPI. Do I need to actually use a whole different language to say this? These souls bleed, they literally freaking feel the wind and can stand on ground, why would they have soul manipulation because they can fight each other?

Does anybody arguing for Soul Manipulation even know what Soul Manipulation is?
Click to expand...
NPI and Soul Manip are not mutually exclusive, and feats can produce both. They are manipulating souls. Last I checked, being able to damage a soul is a form of manipulation.

Who said they were entirely physical? They are fighting as souls against other souls. That's soul manipulation, even if it does not ignore durability, as souls within RoR have durability.

Yes, we do, the page says:

" It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts. "

No one, as far as I have seen, is asking for their soul manipulation to go any farther than being able to square up with one. The only exception where I can think about them ignoring durability is when they are against another verse that explicitly cannot tank attacks to their soul
 
I don't care abour any ******* durability negation, the goddamn point has been that they are physical souls. Being able to fight as a soul gives you not ******* anything. Gods, Kenshiro did the same shit and all he has is Astral Projection.

But unlike Kenshiro, these dudes are physical. Do you see any soul manipulation on goddamn Shinigami because they can fight as Souls? No. Do you see it in dragon Ball Goku, who can also fight as a soul? No.

Do you really think a ******* physical soul that can interact with a physifal environment is using some manipulation? 'No. Willful ignorance shouldn't go this goddamn far. I'll just leave this goddamn thread, you can only say the same shit so many times before is obvious people aren't even listening.

If you do give them soul whatever the ****, make a CRT for the whole wiki, because Dragon Ball is gonna be needing Soul Manipulation apparently.
 
My mood is extremely bad when I have the same thing multiple times like I am talking to deaf people. I doubt the examples I brought up were even looked at, and I'd much prefer being told to leave than what I am saying not even being engaged.

But no, I mean it, if you wanna give them Soul Manipulation, make a wiki wide CRT, because a few people are gonna need changes.
 
@Lance

I think you missed what I was saying. It is not, because they are souls that they should have soul manip, but because they can fight other souls that they should have soul manip.

Also, they aren't physical souls, or at least they have yet to have shown to by physical. They have the properties of their bodies, and because every character involved has been a soul or a God, they still act like they have bodies, but it is clear that they are souls

Sorry you are getting so frustrated
 
I do not know how you can say people that bleed, get bones broken and god knows what else ****** up, can stand on ground, feel the air and the shaking of the earth and god knows how many other things, aren't physical souls but...

Eh, I don't care about this anymore. Am done, do whatever.
 
@laptius but they are shown to be physical souls, aside from everything that lancelot, we also see Hercules (Pre-Godhood) fight Ares and defeat his legion.

And he does have a point you'd have to create a wiki-wide revision. As soul manip requires the soul to not display such physical properties (ex DBZ, Puella Magi, even Bleach needed an example of it), though like me and lancelot have repeatedly said, this verse does not reach the requirements.
 
So, I'm guessing that an external CRT is going to be made on souls for all verses, and we'll find our answer there..
 
SomebodyData said:
@laptius but they are shown to be physical souls, aside from everything that lancelot, we also see Hercules (Pre-Godhood) fight Ares and defeat his legion.
And he does have a point you'd have to create a wiki-wide revision. As soul manip requires the soul to not display such physical properties (ex DBZ, Puella Magi, even Bleach needed an example of it), though like me and lancelot have repeatedly said, this verse does not reach the requirements.
Click to expand...
How does this prove they are physical souls? I'm sorry, but you lost me. The Gods obviously are not souls in and of themselves (or it is better to say, they are spiritual beings but also seem to have a physical form of some sorts), as they haven't died or anything like that

If I'm gonna be honest, I don't really see how. The souls of the verse being unconventional just means we gotta toss a note on the verse page or something, but this doesn't bypass the fact that they are, in fact, interacting with souls. I also don't think it has been proved that the souls are sufficiently physical
 
The fight with Herc and Ares is a weird case. Herc injured him with a regular hammer he mad up on the spot when that shouldn't be possible. Idk if it's PIS or what but the author does remember that gods are supposed to be immune to regular weapons and there are a lot of speculations about that part in the last chapter where Herc gets "disarmed" by a clock.

Now I do agree that the gods are likely not souls but the human fighters have been stated to be so. I don't mind us doing a big CRT about this but I still hold my position on them having some form of soul manip even without NPI.
 
Oh sorry, I thought you were also refering the Gods as souls and the humans to have soul manip.

They are technically interacting with souls, no one is denying that. Of course, no one denies soul gems are souls or the other examples either. It's possible to touch something when its physical, without having the ability to manipulate them.

The souls bleeding, having their bones broken, turning into dust, etc isn't evidence proposing that they're sufficiently physical?
 
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